"Free Market" Economy

[ozone drone]

I saw MikeJ's post in General about "Made in $&*%%& China.
It got me thinking (I know scary) about how short sighted these economic policies are that encourage companies to shut down plants here and relocate overseas.

I've seen all the justifications for it such as it keeps the costs of goods affordable and that "We don't need those types of jobs anyway" and " Would you want to work a factory job?"

It's a fact of life that not everyone is born with the intelligence to have a demanding job. Intelligence is distributed on a bell curve. Are we saying too bad you lost the gene pool lottery ,I'll have fries with that burger?

Factory jobs used to provide a source of income to those who didn't have either the drive or intelligence to find something better. They were also paid enough that they contributed to the tax base and the economy, rather than have to be a drain on it. They had some disposable income beyond the necessities that helps the economy to hum along.
They bought houses (with at least a furnace) and furniture and new cars and went on vacations.

You have all seen the articles in the paper that crow when a new business moves into a community about how the 10 million dollar wages from the business turns over 3 and half times and expands the economy. Well the opposite happens when a factory leaves. The taxes that that factory used to pay every year paid for fire stations and police and roads and teachers salaries.

Dumb kids now have a choice of flippin burgers or selling drugs. There used to be a third path. They'd never get rich in a factory job and have a fancy home in a nice neighborhood ...but they could afford something.

It is short sighted just looking at how much cheaper a company's payroll will be by relocating overseas. Say Johnson Controls and Honeywell both have thermostat factories in the U.S. Once one of them relocates overseas the other HAS to do the same in order to be able to compete and it snowballs from there. Who wins? the stockholders. Who loses? the former employees and the towns where the factories used to be, because the tax base is drying up. You HVAC contractors also lose. Somebody did the HVAC work at the plants.... and the employees houses and all the suppliers... it's a big ripple effect.

It's the equivalent of you losing all of your customers to a guy working out of the trunk of his car.

[air1]

There are over 6.5 Billion people in the world today. And what do almost all of them have in common? They all have a body that is capable of performing menial labor that requires very little intelligence or knowledge. So unless you have some specialized skill, you have to compete with 6.5 Billion people for jobs. And with a liberal free market with supply and demand determining wages, how low do you think wages can go? If the supply of workers exceed the number of jobs available, there will always be someone will to work for less than you. Wages could be driven down to the level of mere subsistence.

The shipping of manufacturing jobs overseas, outsourcing of high technology jobs, the demise of the Unions and illegal immigration, are changing the economic profile of our country. The manufacturing jobs that used to provide living wage jobs are all but gone. The ones that are left have lowered their employee’s compensation in order to compete with companies that manufacture overseas. Even the high tech jobs are going because of the improvements in communications. Unions that kept wages high by artificially restricting the supply of labor are all but extinct or lowering their demands just to survive. And now, illegal immigrants that once mostly just worked in the fields picking our produce are moving into higher paying jobs in the service and construction industries. As long as there is someone willing to do your job for less, the race to the bottom has almost no limit.

But with all these trends, a strange dichotomy exists. As wages are getting lower, the country is getting richer. The sizes of the American homes are getting bigger, we drive nice cars, and we buy lots of stuff. Because of our rate of consumption, economist think things are ok. But I think this is a mistaken view. I think several factors account for this growth we are experiencing. First, you must realize that our economy is base on a pyramid principle. With the entrance of young people and immigrants into the housing market, it has created a high demand for housing and a shortage of available housing. This group of people entering the market at the bottom of the pyramid has raised value of the homes of those already owning a home. This in my opinion is the source of the majority of increase in wealth in the country. The low cost of imported and domestic merchandise made available by low fuel cost and cheap labor, along with an economy stimulated by the recent wealth realized by many in the real estate market, has resulted in a time of abundance for many. We have lots of stuff. But I don’t feel that this is sustainable.

The real estate market is already showing signs of weakening. Those that could afford to move into entry level homes have already done so. Housing prices have increased so dramatically that the people at the lower income scale can no longer afford them. If no one is moving into the entry level homes, then no one will move up in the pyramid. Oil-the life blood of the economy-prices are increasing. The combination of these factors: high housing cost and increased energy cost, will lead to a slowdown in the economy. If the housing marked slows down, construction slows down. If energy prices go up, then services, food and manufacturing cost increase. This all leads to less disposable income that will affect other areas of the economy. These factors will put even more pressure on business to lower cost by lowering wages and benefits.

To make matters worse, President Bush wants to introduce a guest worker program. He wants to import low wage workers to”provide willing workers to willing employers”. Rather than letting the free market dictate wages, Bush want to artificially reduce wages. When the system no longer works for him and his cronies, they change the rules. This policy will lower wages across the board.

Where once employers and trades provided the training for employees, now employees have to train themselves in order to compete for jobs. The share of taxes businesses pay has been reduced and shifted to wage earners. Benefits have been reduced and wages lowered while at the same time profits for corporations have increased dramatically. Good if you own stocks, but not good if you work for wages. It has truly become a buyers market for business. The republican congress has shifted the wealth away from the workers to big business. No one should doubt that the Republican Party does not represent the person that works for wages. So if you vote for republicans and work for wages and you find your self getting poorer while the rich are getting richer, well Duh.

While many have prospered through the current economic system, the overall long term trends are disturbing and could have serious consequences. The gap between incomes is increasing and wealth and power are being concentrated in the hands of a few. We are moving in the direction of a two tiered society. The have and have nots. The bottom tier of the economic pyramid is the foundation of our economy. If we neglect the foundation, the economy will fall.

[James 3528]

Bush and every other president as well as congress is wrong on immigration.

Sometimes a factory closing is good for a community. Case in point, St Mary's Georgia. Pulp Mill went down and the place started booming.


You now have a state forcing health insurance on companies and others will try to follow. You can't set up a company here making knives and forks and have a gym and work out room and everything else they want and remain competitive and the opposite is a tariff and we all know they can backfire. And trying to do that is putting us in position to suffer reprisals for things we can't get here. We can blame some of this problem like with the car industry on the quality. You can't blame Japan for that.

[air1]

Originally posted by James 3528
Bush and every other president as well as congress is wrong on immigration.

Sometimes a factory closing is good for a community. Case in point, St Mary's Georgia. Pulp Mill went down and the place started booming.


You now have a state forcing health insurance on companies and others will try to follow. You can't set up a company here making knives and forks and have a gym and work out room and everything else they want and remain competitive and the opposite is a tariff and we all know they can backfire. And trying to do that is putting us in position to suffer reprisals for things we can't get here. We can blame some of this problem like with the car industry on the quality. You can't blame Japan for that.

The auto industry has said that the cost of health insurance is the reason it cannot compete with the Japanese. They estimate that health care cost adds and average of $1500 to the cost of a car. This says a lot about the affect that health care cost are having on the economy. It has been said that the US spends more money per capita on health care than any other industrialized country, and yet we receive less health care. It has also been said that everyone who needs health care in the US receives it. So, if over 45 million people are uninsured in the US and the elderly and poor are covered by Medicaid, then the companies that provide health care insurance and tax payers are paying for every ones health care. This creates an unfair burden on employers and reduces their ability to compete. In response, the employers shift the increased cost onto the employee. This is in effect a pay cut.

The private health care system has failed. With the number of uninsured increasing and the cost being transferred to the employees and tax payers, it’s about time people realized the free market health care system has failed. In fact the private system has hurt the country by have an economic impact that ripples out to all sectors of the economy. Whether you realize it or not, we are all paying for the sky rocketing cost of health care one way or another.

The solution in my opinion would be to have a single payer system with every employer paying an equal health care tax per employee. This system would level the playing field and stop the corporate subsidies of companies that don’t provide health care. It would also help small business by making sure that their competitor shares some of the same operating cost. And by eliminating the insurance companies, the cost should decrease.
There would of course need to be checks and balances built into such a system to prevent abuses, but it could work. If the burden of health care were more evenly distributed we could provide health care for all, which I consider a right and not a privilege, and the entire country would benefit in many tangible and intangible ways.

[James 3528]

Ummmm you left out some critical stuff. Health care is also expensive because a large segment of our society gets it but does not pay for it. That number is staggering and the cost of it is passed on to the tax payers and others with insurance. In all fairness the UAW's health plan at GM simply broke the company. Annalist said it would do it years back. It never took a employee off of it even when they were eligible for Medicare benefits

[air1]

Originally posted by air1

Originally posted by James 3528
Bush and every other president as well as congress is wrong on immigration.

Sometimes a factory closing is good for a community. Case in point, St Mary's Georgia. Pulp Mill went down and the place started booming.


You now have a state forcing health insurance on companies and others will try to follow. You can't set up a company here making knives and forks and have a gym and work out room and everything else they want and remain competitive and the opposite is a tariff and we all know they can backfire. And trying to do that is putting us in position to suffer reprisals for things we can't get here. We can blame some of this problem like with the car industry on the quality. You can't blame Japan for that.

.... It has also been said that everyone who needs health care in the US receives it. So, if over 45 million people are uninsured in the US and the elderly and poor are covered by Medicaid, then the companies that provide health care insurance and tax payers are paying for every ones health care. This creates an unfair burden on employers and reduces their ability to compete.

I didn't leave it out.

[James 3528]

Well if you like socialism you left a few things out. You used the term "un insured" I was talking about the people that don't worry about insurance because they are too lazy to work because we do. They can walk into any emergency room in this country and they have access to medical care. So the system is working I guess for them

[sline-dawg]

Why does everyone always think healthcare, medical care, should be free??? Where does it say that you are entitled to free anything? You have the right go to any doctor you want, but he is not obligated to do his sevice call for free, if you don't want his service then go someplace else.


Crap, next thing everyone will want is free food and housing....well, I'm drawing the line at free heating and air.

[James 3528]

You are correct. The constitution does not mention free health care. It also does not mention free cheeses and a check for not working.

[braces4impact]

double post

[Edited by braces4impact on 01-21-2006 at 07:01 PM]

[braces4impact]

Only the ones who create the jobs own the jobs. You do nto own your job if you work for someone. It is there job. What is it that you propose should happen to stop jobs from going overseas? Use the force of government to make company owners comply?

So let's imagine this scenario. Lets take thermostat manufactures as an example. Suppose they are forced to keep their production in this country where the labor is high.

1. ) They will not have a chance at competing on a global market because of cheaper foreign made thermostats.

2. ) Imported thermostats will undercut the American made stats and force the American manufactures to cut back on jobs or pay etc.

If you levy tariffs against the imported thermostats with nation "Y" then nation "Y" will retaliate with their own tariffs on other American made products causing them to lose market share.

Now we have two ( or more) American companies hurt and that have to shut down or cut back because of artificial intervention in the free market.

In the end the net result from artificially keeping the jobs here is greater than if the free market were allowed to operate by itself.

Your argument here is exactlly the same as the argument made by the ones who said that the cotton gin and other technological advances would destroy jobs. They have done just the opposite. They have created jobs and greatly increased the standard of living.

[the prophet]

to say we ever had a free market is a fallacy. tarriffs and import duties have always been a practice in this country to help domestic manufacturers compete with foreign ones...
it is the relaxation and abandonment of those domestic protections across the board that are making domestic manufacturers more vulnerable to foreign competition...

and we do not lose much market share in any of these countries. even when they can buy some american companies goods, they buy them from a manufacturing site outside of this country. otherwise, they would never be able to afford anything made in this country....and americans don't really benefit when foreigners buy goods from other countries anyway, unless they are stockholders in that company.

it boils down to propaganda,
all these myths people are full of that free trade is a good thing and was just "in-evitable".
this country used to be a colony, and a source for raw materials.the british structured their tarriffs and duties to protect their manufacturers and at the same time allow our cheap raw materials in..
ever since we won our revolution against them, the tories in our gov't have been pushing for free trade, because these limited liability corporations and their multi- and transnational status, can skate the laws of all nations if allowed, and can make more money.
the duty of the countries representatives is to keep an eye on the ball when it comes to trade policies, to represent the people, and keep agreed policies in the realm where they benefit americans. period. Now our representatives are really just whores, who work for those who pay for their campaigns, and those are the multinationals..


the first two posts were right on,
it is short sighted to allow our trade deficit to skyrocket with these unwise policies, that propaganda meisters and shills have been telling people who aren't really thinking about it, to believe that unfettered free trade is ultimately going to be in their best intrest.

making comparisons to the cotton gin... is almost meaningless.

even when manufacturing went from the north to the south.. it was still all in this country....
if this was a "one world" world gov't...... then it wouldn't matter where this new globaloney is taking us. But as long as this is still america, we do have intrests to protect.


50 years ago, it was cheaper to make things in mexico too... it is because the laws and trade barriers were in place that let americans control their own economy.Cartels are illegal in this country. but in the rest of the world they flourish.there are many things that exist in the world we should do well not to adopt as policies. history has already shown us what to expect.

[braces4impact]

to say we ever had a free market is a fallacy. tarriffs and import duties have always been a practice in this country to help domestic manufacturers compete with foreign ones...
it is the relaxation and abandonment of those domestic protections across the board that are making domestic manufacturers more vulnerable to foreign competition...

I agree we never were completely a free market. In fact it has NEVER exist any place in the world. However the degree in which a market operates in freedom varries from place to place. The freer the market the wealthier a nation is.

[ozone drone]

Our population is nearly 300 million ... it's not like Honeywell has to sell thermostats in Bulgaria or go broke...Size production to fit your market.... Do you run calls or sell systems in neighboring states? Why does the world end if we cant sell overseas?

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by ozone drone
Our population is nearly 300 million ... it's not like Honeywell has to sell thermostats in Bulgaria or go broke...Size production to fit your market.... Do you run calls or sell systems in neighboring states? Why does the world end if we cant sell overseas?

Yes size production to fit the market but what about the imported stats? Oh yes we will protect Honeywell by placing tariffs. But to place a tariff on a nation doesn't mean that that nation will retaliate by placing a tariff on the Honeywell stats, they don't have to because the people in that country can't afford them anyways. They will retaliate by placing a tariff on SOME OTHER American import thus hurting market share on that company. Or more then likely companies, plural. Now you have decreased market share for who knows how many other American companies which translates into lost jobs , benefits etc.

Not only that but strained economic relations has spill over effects into foreign relations such as the willingness a nation is to help us in sharing information or using military bases for strategic advantage in conflicts.

Thirdly another advantage of having nations with intermingled economies is that they are less likely to war with each other because they each have too much to lose. Also the less likely some other nation will war with them knowing that they are allied with the US.

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by sline-dawg
Why does everyone always think healthcare, medical care, should be free??? Where does it say that you are entitled to free anything? You have the right go to any doctor you want, but he is not obligated to do his sevice call for free, if you don't want his service then go someplace else.


Crap, next thing everyone will want is free food and housing....well, I'm drawing the line at free heating and air.

Actually Medical Doectors take an oath to provide medical care regardless of compensation... They call it the Hypocratical Oath...

But when Medical insurance is not finacially available to some sect of people, they have to use emergency rooms for general medical care, because they cannot see a GP. You bet your bottom dollar that the hospital sends you off with a bill if you do not have medical insurance... Weather youpay it, that could be another story...

Did you know, that over 50% of credit card debts leading to Bankruptcy claims are from paying medical bills with credit cards. What are you supposed to do when you insurace sucks, or is non existant, and you owe $10,000 for a hospital visit that is not covered by your "policy"...?

Guess who pays for it in the end? you and I...

I certainly dont think that medical care should be free, but there are better ways that the current system we have now. Socialized medical care is not FREE medical care. It is collectively paid for by the people in the forms of taxes...

You know the amount that we spend on BS war crap, could provide medical care for ALL Americans? Food for thought.

[neophytes serendipity]

James 3528, your issue here: "Health care is also expensive because a large segment of our society gets it but does not pay for it. That number is staggering and the cost of it is passed on to the tax payers and others with insurance."

Is mentioned here by Air1: "It has also been said that everyone who needs health care in the US receives it. So, if over 45 million people are uninsured in the US and the elderly and poor are covered by Medicaid, then the companies that provide health care insurance and tax payers are paying for every ones health care. This creates an unfair burden on employers and reduces their ability to compete. In response, the employers shift the increased cost onto the employee. This is in effect a pay cut."

This line of reasoning by James 3528: "Sometimes a factory closing is good for a community. Case in point, St Mary's Georgia. Pulp Mill went down and the place started booming."

Is kinda like saying that seatbelts suck because they might prevent you from being ejected from the car and result in your death by being pinned in the vehicle.

And this posted by ozone drone: "It's the equivalent of you losing all of your customers to a guy working out of the trunk of his car." is already happening. Plenty of eastern European immigrants in my area doing just that. Wages race to the bottom to get a job.

The problems with health care costs cannot continue. We may not be entitled to "free health care" as defined in the Constitution (because no such Amendment exists), but someone is subsidizing those that do. If I default on my medical bills, I get taken to collections and they will take my home, yet the person with nothing can receive better health care than I do, and the bills are paid through my taxes, insurance premiums and my employer.

We cannot all become "cash rich" by buying cheap imported goods and thumbing our wallets at domestic producers. The number of bankruptcies show this. Where is all that money saved from buying cheap junk? It certainly isn't in the bank.

There is a difference between "free trade" and "fair trade".

Americans will be able to compete with the Chinese when the Americans earn the same as the Chinese. Either the Chinese wages are going up, or the American wages are going down. Which do you think is happening?

[neophytes serendipity]

We'll see how well the shipping/transportation business does when oil hits $100+ a barrel if the UN imposes sanctions on Iran. :)

Oh, and the rest of the economy, too.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
James 3528, your issue here: "Health care is also expensive because a large segment of our society gets it but does not pay for it. That number is staggering and the cost of it is passed on to the tax payers and others with insurance."

Is mentioned here by Air1: "It has also been said that everyone who needs health care in the US receives it. So, if over 45 million people are uninsured in the US and the elderly and poor are covered by Medicaid, then the companies that provide health care insurance and tax payers are paying for every ones health care. This creates an unfair burden on employers and reduces their ability to compete. In response, the employers shift the increased cost onto the employee. This is in effect a pay cut."

This line of reasoning by James 3528: "Sometimes a factory closing is good for a community. Case in point, St Mary's Georgia. Pulp Mill went down and the place started booming."

Is kinda like saying that seatbelts suck because they might prevent you from being ejected from the car and result in your death by being pinned in the vehicle.

And this posted by ozone drone: "It's the equivalent of you losing all of your customers to a guy working out of the trunk of his car." is already happening. Plenty of eastern European immigrants in my area doing just that. Wages race to the bottom to get a job.

The problems with health care costs cannot continue. We may not be entitled to "free health care" as defined in the Constitution (because no such Amendment exists), but someone is subsidizing those that do. If I default on my medical bills, I get taken to collections and they will take my home, yet the person with nothing can receive better health care than I do, and the bills are paid through my taxes, insurance premiums and my employer.

We cannot all become "cash rich" by buying cheap imported goods and thumbing our wallets at domestic producers. The number of bankruptcies show this. Where is all that money saved from buying cheap junk? It certainly isn't in the bank.

There is a difference between "free trade" and "fair trade".

Americans will be able to compete with the Chinese when the Americans earn the same as the Chinese. Either the Chinese wages are going up, or the American wages are going down. Which do you think is happening?


No, it's not like sating this and that. What I said was a fact and happened. You ever smelled a town where there was a pulp mill?

And simply saying that there is people getting free health care doesn't explain how they got it and how they abuse it, which is at the expense of others.

[neophytes serendipity]

Nope, never smelled a pulp mill. Probably smells a lot like McMansions built downwind from a landfill on a hot day :)

But the comparison between plant closings being "good" (which is the point made), and not wearing a seatbelt in preparation for that one accident when being ejected is "good" are both exceptions to the rule. Closing all the plants is no better than driving around waiting to get lucky when you are ejected from a vehicle in an accident.

I think Air1 explained the free health care and the burdens that result from it pretty well, but here is my take on it...

I know how people obtain free health care. They go to the hospital and get it. My mom is a nurse. If you have no assets or if you are an illegal alien, you are good to go- the hospital will put their best doctors on it and you will be all fixed up. The hospital foots the bill- which really means that the burden of those costs are passed onto the insured and the cash customers.

If you have insurance, there are levels of care that are adhered to. You aren't getting any more than the insurance company will pay for, and the hospital does everything to get you out of there sooner rather than later. That is what a discharge nurse does- gets you out of there ASAP. Being ready to leave physically is not the number one priority.

On the other hand, as a white male with a job, I am up the creek without a paddle. If I don't have insurance, I get a bigger bill. If I don't pay, it goes to collections. The hospital will seize your assets to get their money.

So, in effect, I am footing the medical bills for myself, those without assets, illegal aliens, and big businesses that doesn't pay enough so their employees have to go on social programs to get health care (those social programs are funded by taxes). Yes, I am tired of working so hard.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 01-22-2006 at 03:53 PM]

[Shophound]

I just bought a new set of computer speakers today. After reading this thread, I looked on the box to see where these speakers were made. China, of course. Next to that it said the speakers were engineered in the USA.

Outside rep's position is that everyone has a certain density and either rises upward or sinks downward by reason of genetics. This strikes me as pure Darwinian evolution at work; i.e. "survival of the fittest". The smart ones prosper while the dumb ones remain weak or perish.
Sure, that's a fine model if we're animals (which one could argue we are from both a biological and behavioral standpoint, I suppose), but I still maintain, perhaps it be it passe' in certain tables of thought, that being human distinguishes us from animals.

My life experiences have shown me that human beings do well, mentally and physically, when not only are their basic needs for survival are met, but that they feel they have a purpose and a future. I also know that when humans do not come by their own sustenance and livlihood honestly by reason of their own effort, by poaching or leaching off the work of others, they are not well, even if they feign wellness by taking delight in their self imposed lack of motivation, or their apparent craftiness of "getting somehting for nothing" (AKA stealing).

Along these lines I realize no business or corporation owes any person a job or livlihood. At the same time, what is my obligation to support a person who willfully refuses to pull his own weight?

On one hand I could point a finger at a corporation that pays its top dogs obscene bonuses yet lays off portions of its workforce or demands paycuts from those at the bottom who are already barely scraping by. I have to ask, how much is enough? One person can only eat so much food, need so much shelter, travel so many places. There's only so much time. All the money squirreled away won't buy a person more time, only fill it with a great deal more clutter.

On the other hand, I know there will always be people in the world who for whatever reason do not have the mental fortitude to be in a job that rewards high intellectual capacity with high compensation. Hence my reference to the box my speakers came in. The engineers that designed the speaker likely drew quite a higher wage than the Chinese laborers that made it.
So, what to do with the ever present reality of those who can never hope to be engineers yet shouldnt'be relegated to ghetto living if they possess a decent work ethic and are otherwise not a drain on society, nor wish to be? This seems to be one of the salient points of the OP left inadequately addressed. Historically, manufacturing jobs provided this avenue, but with them going way, what are these laid off workers going to do?

Flock to HVAC work like I see indication on this board? Sure, but what happens when other workers who once could afford new HVAC systems no longer can?

[neophytes serendipity]

As more people flock to the HVAC trade, it will drive wages down.

Employers will be nothing more than something like a taxi dispatch office. The tech will have to provide the vehicle, gas, phone, tools and insurance while the owner provides a "business"- the office and phone number- and rakes it in... The smart ones will get pissed off and start their own "dispatch company", but they will have to cut costs more to compete in a flooded market.

Same thing happens when a laid off worker pick up a hammer and calls him/herself a handyman. Wages go down.

Sounds like fun...

[air1]

Originally posted by shophound
I
...Outside rep's position is that everyone has a certain density and either rises upward or sinks downward by reason of genetics. This strikes me as pure Darwinian evolution at work; i.e. "survival of the fittest". The smart ones prosper while the dumb ones remain weak or perish.
Sure, that's a fine model if we're animals (which one could argue we are from both a biological and behavioral standpoint, I suppose), but I still maintain, perhaps it be it passe' in certain tables of thought, that being human distinguishes us from animals.




Shophound, you make a good point. Even roaches and ants live by the laws of supply and demand. You would think that we humans, being intelligent beings, could create a better system.

Another thing to consider or provoke debate; prisoners get better health care than Wal-Mart employees. I’m not advocating that we not provide health care to inmates. I’m only saying there is something wrong with our system when prisoners get better health care than some one who works hard and makes an honest living.

[the prophet]

when someone argues FOR free trade by citing examples of negative effects of country or product specific new tarrifs, which might cause a tariff war as happened when bush clumsily tried to protect the steel industry.. is just a victim of the propaganda that has been put out there.

the tarriffs were already there, and they cover everything coming in.
since that starting point, lobbiests have gotten congress to repeal SOME of those import duties and tarriffs...
and now people who believe the propaganda believe that if anyone re-writes those duties for anything specific, they will set off a trade war(which they might).

the entire point is these tariffs need to be reinstated in a blanket fashion.so no industry is singled out unfairly. this has benefitted our country for two hundred years...
the free trade propaganda of the last fifty years, is why these people who are just becoming aware of the issues recently, are parroting such misinformed ideas.

business has been being conducted for a long time, these issues are not new. and shills have tried their best to misinform the public.
this country has done exceedingly well for the last century, dealing largely with domestic economic policies.
what we have gone abroad for is raw materials. these are the american colonial expansion/exploitation that has gotten us into this position of being disliked around the world for our foreign policies.
our trade deficits show we don't have much of a stake in selling the rest of the world much of anything.Just like we have always bought some imports, and always sold some exports,the basis of our economy has been producing things here,for each other.but by abandoning the trade policies that got us here, and our domestic manufacturing capabilities; we are forgetting where our bread is buttered.

we don't need "retaliatory" restrictive tariffs that would start trade wars. we just need to get back to sane trade laws that put americans first, and aren't so clearly written for the benefit of multinational corporations at the behest of their armies of lobbiests.

this country is only 230 years old. that is a fledgeling country . We need to look at what is sustainable. What is real. Not just what is going to offer some venture capitalist the quickest returns on money they have no intention of paying taxes here on.

fair trade is exactly what i am talking about. this is different than free trade.

look at the conflicts of intrest of those making these new trade laws. they own and are large shareholders in these foreign capitalization funds that are floating the capital to pay for the growth in china,and recieveing the higher rates of return than they would be getting if they were using their money to rebuild infrastructure in this country.
it is true, anyone can invest in whatever makes them the most money. But when these people have conflicts of intrest like this, and are writing our trade policies that make their families richer. that is unamerican and a crime,IMO. Look at the presidents brothers,niel and marvin and the intrests they have in china. even his uncle prescott, is a major venture capitalist funding many chinese factories, and manufacturing and building and realestate... you can bet, wealthy democrats ad republicans alike, have family members making family fortunes over there.right now.certainly bribing the corrupt party officials,and pretending they are great capitalists.reaping the rewards of almost slave labor,enviromental pollution, all at the expense of americans. smart and dumb....

some people here, look at this like it is a snapshot."I am doing well right now;so i don't give a rats ass"...

that is just a short sighted and ignorant way to look at things.the timeframes that are important are what this will mean in 5 years,10 years,20 years, 50 years, etc....not just today.we all have lives. and we follow them day to day. the affairs and policies of our country, should be of more import than the day to day roll of the dice we all get.immediate gratification isn't a good way to run a country.that is what maturity is about.

[ozone drone]

Prophet .... good points. Our economic and trade policies (read tarriffs) are what created a prosperous middle class in this country that for the most part, provided extra dollars that oiled the economy. In WWII our troops in England who were getting paid about 40 dollars a month were thought to be grossly overpaid by the Brits.

Reminded me of the Stanley tool company.....long established American company (who hasn't had a Stanley tape measure?) They shut down all of their plants here and relocated overseas....that's not the worst part. They even relocated their corporate headquarters from Connecticut to the Bahamas in order to avoid paying corporate taxes on their Chinese made tools.

The only thing American about the company now is their long established name. The rest of the world used to aspire to our standard of living. The current trends will ultimately dismantle the system that used to set us apart.

In the 50's and 60's it took one breadwinner to provide the income that a family needed..... now June Cleaver HAS to work too in order to provide that second income to maintain the same standard of living. Women's lib issues aside ... the kids left alone without a mother's eye and thumb on them have not done well on their own. (pregnancies, drugs and attitude)

[outside rep]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
We'll see how well the shipping/transportation business does when oil hits $100+ a barrel if the UN imposes sanctions on Iran. :)

Oh, and the rest of the economy, too.

I am buying a Hybrid for me and a electric car for her so ...


And the rest of this post confuses me way to much

You guys worry way to much about some thing you cant do anything about also there is a shortage in the Consturction field in general and its getting less and less people in the HVAC Field and is only the older generations that are getting into the field

have you been to the local tech school to see who are the up and comers

Brain Dead by the bunch of them I feel like Robo or Carnak next to them LOL

and when oil hits 100 barrel you will find more effienct cars on the market and new ways for energy and

GO NUCLEAR ;)

[markettech]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
As more people flock to the HVAC trade, it will drive wages down.

Employers will be nothing more than something like a taxi dispatch office. The tech will have to provide the vehicle, gas, phone, tools and insurance while the owner provides a "business"- the office and phone number- and rakes it in... The smart ones will get pissed off and start their own "dispatch company", but they will have to cut costs more to compete in a flooded market.

Same thing happens when a laid off worker pick up a hammer and calls him/herself a handyman. Wages go down.

Sounds like fun...

I don't think we have anything to worry about in this industry. Just about anybody can nail a couple of 2x4's together and call themselves a carpenter, but the intelligence and skill needed to excel at this trade goes far beyond knowing how to hook up a set of gauges or light a torch.

Hell, I've been doing this for over 16 years and still run into challenges frequently. Furthermore, in this generation of pay me $60,000.00 a year coming out of Tech. School but don't expect me to get my hands dirty, I don't see many entry level people making a career in the HVACR industry.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by outside rep
I am buying a Hybrid for me and a electric car for her so ...


And the rest of this post confuses me way to much

You guys worry way to much about some thing you cant do anything about also there is a shortage in the Consturction field in general and its getting less and less people in the HVAC Field and is only the older generations that are getting into the field

have you been to the local tech school to see who are the up and comers

Brain Dead by the bunch of them I feel like Robo or Carnak next to them LOL

and when oil hits 100 barrel you will find more effienct cars on the market and new ways for energy and

GO NUCLEAR ;)

You better do some research on that hybrid before you buy it.

Here, I will help: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=128393

A sudden runup to $100 a barrel will have a devastating effect on the econony. Business owners here comlpain about the cost of doing business, and how hard it is to "charge customers enough" now, so who will absorb the higher gas costs? Probably the "well paid" HVAC techs that supply the trucks, tools and gas at some of these great companies.

Here is something on the situation in Iran and a little about what can happen- it isn't too long of a read: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/ckrauthammer/

If the fleet average of vehicles in the USA rose a little less than 3 MPG, we could give OPEC the finger.

Your electric car requires electricity.

No new coal plants have been built in a long time because of EPA regulations.

No new nuke plants have been built because of public fears and the waste disposal problem.

Let's not forget that the construction of new power plants is resource and energy intensive.

All new US electric plants are natural gas fired. In fact, 40% of the gas used in the USA is used to generate power. Most of the proven gas reserves are in the former Soviet Union and Iran. The infrastructure to move to a gas economy does not exist yet. The USA will need to import natural gas to meet energy needs.

This article here mentioned looming issues regarding the natural gas supply and oil reserves. I read the whole thing, but now you have to pay for that. Here is the link anyway: http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article339928.ece

If your electric car works on a hydrocarbon fired fuel cell, well those require platinum to work. Kind of like a catalytic converter. Platinum is a precious metal in limited supply, and those supplies are in politically unstable regions. The technology exists for a hydrogen fired fuel cell, but where do you fill up? Same issues with platinum, too.

Yes, eventually fuel efficient technologies will (hopefully) catch up.

Problem is, in the time we should have been persuing that we have been more concerned with cheap oil and using it as fast as we can. The billions needed to develop those new technologies will be less available in a global recession- which is what will happen during a sustained $100+ a barrel pricing structure.

How will your lifestyle change if gas is $5.75 (or more) a gallon tomorrow? There will not be a gradual runup in prices if the Iran issue explodes. Will your income rise to match all of the new price increases? Will you be able to pass the new costs to customers? Will they be able to afford it (see, it all ties together)?

How many low income people will be able to afford the gas to get to that job and a new 13 SEER AC unit when theirs craps out? I see a brisk sales year for window AC units (which won't help many Americans because they are made in China now).

Gasoline pricing hovering in the $2.50 range has effected truck/SUV sales at Ford and GM. Unfortunatley, most of their profits come from the sales of trucks/SUV's. They built them because consumers demanded them. So who is really to blame?

The "fuel efficient vehicle" scenario also assumes the fuel will be readily available. That may be an incorrect assumption once panic and hoarding sets in.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 01-24-2006 at 09:14 AM]

[outside rep]

Here is the real deal for me my job is not dictated by local residental people mine is in the School Area and goverment sales thats about it i dont do residental or light commercial only big big stuff with Goverment budgets

So if this does ever happen wich is so highly unlikely I wont be affected

She wont lose here job since she is a teacher

Also for buying the ford escape she doesnt even do over 40mph while driving back and forth to work she fills up her tank once every three weeks so this will make it go to six weeks also both of my cars are paid for so... :D and more then likley I will pay for the new car with a single commision check for a job I will be sellling here come winter time also her dad is the service manager for the local ford dealer so I get family plan pricing on the Escape so it only makes sense to get one.

And if gas goes to $5.00 a gallon nothing will change for me that would only raise my gas money usage by 30.00 a week wich is basiclly peanuts i blow more money on lunch in one day then I do on gas all week all I need to do is go to McDonalds instead of Outback once or twice a week and thats it.


Also if you budget is that thin that, that much of a gas price jump ends your life you are spending way to much or doing something wrong .

[outside rep]

But I do like reading your info since its very intresting buy you got to quit reading all these doom sayers info if I read all that crap you did I would think the end of the world is tommarrow :(

[the prophet]

so, outside rep,
you are saying you don't care about global realities because you live off the taxpayers dime,eh?.your one of those people whose livelihood is provided by taxpayers and the gov't....so as long as people keep paying their taxes, you'll be snug as a bug in a rug.

[neophytes serendipity]

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

[the prophet]

some people are fixating here thinking that only semi skilled factory jobs can be outsourced...

in a free market economy, there are no real distinctions between outsourcing factories, or engineers.
the engineers in india, have all the necessary skills to do most of the floor level engineering.
so not only can speakers be made in china by people making a dollar a day... they can be engineered in india by trained engineers who make 5,000 dollars a year...and with the technological advances around now, and sure to be better in the future... via a computer interface, things can be engineered, production drawings done.. downloaded to whatever country has a factory,production equiptment created, and shipped here....all amazingly cheaper than we could do any of that here...

and why would we want to suddenly start competing with people who make almost nothing, by our standards.

and , an HVAC tech or even engineer, shouldn't be so comfortable.There is nothing that one of you guys do, that someone who speaks spanish can't do.people in other places aren't dumb. accomplishments of other cultures are often spectacular... so when they harness some of that cheap creativity, and things like the license regulations of the hvac industry get "deregulated" ,thru agreements like CAFTA ,and trained techs making 10 dollars an hour start flocking in from honduras....we will see what happens when gov't contracts, municipal contracts and even interstate large residential and commercial hvac companies start bringing the going rates down,we will see how people who don't care now, start caring...


the idea isn't just to not think about it because you are not affected YET.

like when the nazi's first started rounding up the jews... and some people said," well, i'm not jewish so what do i care".. but then down the road, someone overheard them saying something against the party in some beerhall,, and lo and behold.. they ended up in the camps too.

of course nothing any of us say, matters. we are not the policy makers.

but, the public needs to get real.the level of misunderstanding about all of our futures, is setting the stage to screw us all.We keep not being able to vote in anyone who is worth voting in, and people get sucked in by these propagandizing party platforms...these are bi-partisan realities.



and as far as the possibilities of an economic crash caused by suddenly skyrocketing fuel prices.. is all to real.
now, i think too much is being made about the threat iran poses to us from nuclear weapons, but if that is part of some form of pre-conditioning to get the public ready for another slew of seemingly stupid foreign policy mistakes from the bush administration. It could very easily be george writing a check americans can't cash.notice how the administration shills have their tails tucked between their legs when they talk about sanctions against iran. they know iran is holding the cards.Only an idiot would underestimate the damage that could be done to this country, if there were unprecedented price and supply fluctuations in an already tight and skiddish market....
talk about a free market economy....

we are already under the nail, from the oil refiners manipulating refinery output, to make the fuel supplies so tight....
free market economy... the robber barrons were all for that.
but the american republic, never had one...not a pure one.and if we ever did it would be a disaster.

[Edited by the prophet on 01-24-2006 at 08:25 PM]

[outside rep]

lol you the man