Origins of Civilization

[refrigeration mafia]

The origins of civilization has always fascinated me. What came before civilization arose?

Major climatic changes are recorded somewhere around 5000-4000 BC at this time, and seemingly suddenly, the big deserts arrived. The desert system that spreads from Morocco to China showed up around this time. It is suggested by archeologists that this forced changes people. They were forced to move into the river valleys where there was water and they were forced to find better ways to feed themselves with agriculture they were forced to start living together and civilization was born.

3300 BC -- Mesopotamia
Started in Summeria between the Tigrus and Euphrates rivers, here the first civilization sprang up, bringing people together in huge cities to build massive buildings.

Hhere writing was invented, which allowed people to share their goods. It allowed them to keep records so they knew who owed what or had paid what.

3000 BC -- Egypt
300 years later Upper and Lower Egypt were united and the glory of the Egyptian Empire was begun

2900 BC -- Mediterranean cities were being started in Europe, places like Troy, along the coastline of Asia Minor

2700 BC -- civilization reaches new heights
Gilgamesh would rule in Uruk, the Minoans would turn Crete into a powerhouse, Imhotep would build the first pyramid in Egypt, a century later Cheops (Khufu) would build the Great Pyramid and perhaps uncover the Sphinx.

Although tradition tells us he built it and that it is is face on it, geologists are beginning to ask questions like 'how did it get eroded by water?'

So Khufu may have only dug it out of the sand, it being much much older, dating back to a time when Egypt was not desert, when it rained a lot there... Thutmose IV would dig it out of the sand around 1500BC

2500 BC -- India
within 400 years of Troy the Harappans would found an empire on the Indus river in northern India and Pakistan back in Summeria the first dynasty in Ur would begin and in Egypt "paper" (papyrus) is invented.

2200 BC -- China
the Xia dynasty is founded by Yu the Great in China and the glory of ancient China begins.

What drove this massive spread of civilization?
- and why did it seem to spread from a single point?
- was their some starting point?
- was their a reason for starting in Summeria?
- does Genesis 11 have anything to do with it?
(some historians want to place Babel much later than this in 2100BC or so when the great Ziggurats were built)
- could it perhaps have been because of some catastrophic event?

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 01-08-2006 at 03:56 PM]

[acmanko]

It was more than likely people from another planet crash landing on Earth. Imagine a planet in a solar system light years away from Earth, the people fleeing war, death and famine, in the time it took to arrive here all the elders were dead and upon crashing into Earth all the knowledge they had was lost, leaving us , their prodigy, as wild heathens, yet having the knowlege to pull ourselves out of the primordial ooze and create what we have tody.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by acmanko
It was more than likely people from another planet crash landing on Earth. Imagine a planet in a solar system light years away from Earth, the people fleeing war, death and famine, in the time it took to arrive here all the elders were dead and upon crashing into Earth all the knowledge they had was lost, leaving us , their prodigy, as wild heathens, yet having the knowlege to pull ourselves out of the primordial ooze and create what we have tody.

You might be closer to the truth than you realize.

Various legends have Lao Tse being conceived by a falling star...

The first known Chinese librarian was the philosopher Lao Tse, who was appointed keeper of the royal historical records for the Chou rulers about 550 BC.

Although ascetics and hermits such as Shen Tao (who advocated that one "abandon knowledge and discard self") first wrote of the "Tao," it is with the sixth century B.C. philosopher Lao Tzu (or 'Old Sage' -- born Li Erh) that the philosophy of Taoism really began.

---

Revelation 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

---

The black Stone (Hajar al-Aswad) Hajar al-Aswad Muslims believe (without proof) that the revered "black stone" (Alhajar Al-Aswad) is a meteorite, that pre-dates creation and fell at the foot of Adam and Eve. It is presently embedded in the southeastern corner of the Kaba. Muslims believe (without proof) that the revered "black stone" (Alhajar Al-Aswad) is a special divine meteorite, that pre-dates creation that fell at the foot of Adam and Eve.

---

ASTERIA - In Greek mythology, Asteria was the sixth killed by Heracles when he came for Hippolyte's girdle. A Star-Goddess, the daughter of Coeus and Phoebe and sister of Leto, Asteria flung herself into the ocean to escape the advances of Zeus. She became the island of the same name.

[r404a]

Refrigmafioso,

Have you been reading "Forbidden History"? I just started it the other day and it is a great book. If you all haven't read it yet, I suggest it.


r404a

[RoBoTeq]

The alien ancestry has always seemed the most logical to me as well.

[skrewt]

What makes any other planet more likely to produce intelligent life than earth?

Once tribes are forced to come together for survival and organize their society, they then have the powe of numbers to take from other tribes that which they need to survive.
This forces other tribes to unite for protection.
This new behaviour would spread like wildfire.
Especially when the victim tribe now found itself short of food, they would look for weaker tribes to plunder.

[acmanko]

What makes any other planet more likely to produce intelligent life than earth?
What makes Earth the only planet capable of supporting intelligent life?

[bornriding]

Why would you think that we are intelligent ??

[acmanko]

I didnt say "we"

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by acmanko
What makes any other planet more likely to produce intelligent life than earth?

What makes Earth the only planet capable of supporting intelligent life?

Please don't say that we were designed. Because if you do, I might just suggest that we are actually a race of highly evolved androids, who are wandering around the planet aimlessly, looking for our creator.

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 01-08-2006 at 08:53 PM]

[James 3528]

I think some of the people here ancestors could of came from Uranus

[acmanko]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Edited by Mod on 01-18-2006 at 01:38 AM]

[acmanko]

and then we have Jamesroid, circling Uranus for Klingons.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by acmanko
It was more than likely people from another planet crash landing on Earth.

Okie dokie. You know the drill. Where did these people from another planet come from?

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by acmanko
It was more than likely people from another planet crash landing on Earth.

Where did these people from another planet come from?

I would say that you are most likely to find the answer to that question in the stars and in mythology.

So much time has passed that the answer has become lost. You may find the science of archaeoastronomy useful.

http://www.aeonjournal.com/

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 01-08-2006 at 11:06 PM]

[scrogdog]

So... you beleive that aliens "seeded" the Earth with but one single-celled organism?

Implausible... but ok... whatever...

[skrewt]

God makes earth.
God makes man.
God makes woman.

Man takes dump and voila! Democrats.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by outside rep
God was wanking one off and he missed the tissue and some landed on earth and there you go wang bam HUMANS AHHHH


Originally posted by skrewt
God makes earth.
God makes man.
God makes woman.

Man takes dump and voila! Democrats.

YOU and YOU. Get out of my thread, if you have nothing constructive to add.

[RoBoTeq]

I saw a cartoon showing God in the Universe holding a blown up paper bag he was about to "pop". The caption read "The Real Reason for The Big Bang".

[bootlen]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia


YOU and YOU. Get out of my thread, if you have nothing constructive to add.

Your thread? Got some bad news for ya, refer. Once ya post it, it ain't yers!

[tonys]

It's a pretty sad-state-of-affairs when only 40% of the earth's population has 'got it right'
(ref. Christian fundamentalists who believe it's their way or a one way ticket to the center of the earth)

The other 60% are just a bunch of pray'n fools, right?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by tonys
It's a pretty sad-state-of-affairs when only 40% of the earth's population has 'got it right'
(ref. Christian fundamentalists who believe it's their way or a one way ticket to the center of the earth)

The other 60% are just a bunch of pray'n fools, right?



Well, look it up. You'll find the answer somewhere between Genesis and the maps.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by tonys
It's a pretty sad-state-of-affairs when only 40% of the earth's population has 'got it right'
(ref. Christian fundamentalists who believe it's their way or a one way ticket to the center of the earth)

The other 60% are just a bunch of pray'n fools, right?



you believe anyone religious are wasting their time and annoying you.
So what.
Who cares what anyone else believes.

[Steve Wiggins]

What is so hard to believe about regular ol evolution? Other creatures do it, why not humans?

[acmanko]

We evolve all the time , look at all the normal people here who have evolved into blooming idiots.

[bootlen]

:D

[acmanko]

Including you :)

[bootlen]

Originally posted by acmanko
Including you :)

Thanks for trying to include me in your set but no thanks.

[air1]

You should read “Guns, Germs, and Steel” by Jared Diamond. A short history of everything about everybody.

[John(Chicago)]

Well refrigeration mafia, your question is one of my interesting areas of wonder. I however, am rather ignorant in this area of science, but that doesn’t mean I am not smart enough to comment. Being smart doesn’t mean having to know everything; it means that you know WHO to ask when you DONT know something. Having said this, to speak intelligently on this subject I referred to my sister, she is Anthropology major from Tulane; yes a real life archeologist with a PHD. I asked her your very question to get a comment because I too am interested and so here is her reply...


Your friend's question about what came before civilization is not too
hard to
answer, but his time line is not completely correct in many things and
I'm not
sure where he got his info; it looks a bit suspicious to me, like
something
from the History Channel. But, I always wanted to teach a prehistory
course...

If he wants to know what came before people settled in permanent
villages and
began farming (roots of Civilization), then the answer is that they
were
nomadic hunter/gatherer/foragers since the Pliocene when modern Homo
sapiens
emerge in Africa. The question of why does civilization seem to spread
from a
single point, well I think it is because people (humans) come
originally from
Africa and have lived and adapted to the surroundings in Africa for the
longest. So, it isn't really surprising that the earliest evidence for
civilizations would come from Africa, the Middle East, and around the
Mediterranean. Civilization is a bit of a loaded term because people
tend to
think tha any culture that does not fit in the category of
"civilization" is
therefore primitive, and that is not the case. We Anthros use it to
refer to
cultures that have many of the following traits: large populations,
sedentary
lifestyle, urbanism, intensive agriculture, and complex society (social
hierarchy, institutions, complex religion, military, writing, diverse
economy
w/market systems, and the like). So, during the Late Pliocene and
throughout
the Pleistocene, humans lived as hunter/gatherer/foragers in probably
what we
call band-type societies, so groups of not very large size with a clan
or
lineage based social organization, a very informal political system (so
lineage
heads, Big Men, clan leaders, etc), subsistance economy, nomadic or
semi-permanent lifestyle, probably seasonal, and low population levels.
So,
eventhough such people would not necessarily be called as having a
"civilization," they were not primitive. They had a very sophisticated
knowledge of their environmt and hunting or foraging technologies.
They had
religion (cave paintings and burial rituals) and obviously, language,
since
probably before modern sapiens. So, now the question is, what happens
to force
humans to change over or give up the hunting, roaming way of life?
That is a
question that Anthropology is still working on and it may not, as I
suspect, be
one simple answer for every place in the world. It seems that a
certain number
of specific conditions need to be present, and it is not clear if all
it takes
is one change or one stressor, like a drought or severe climate change
or one
very smart person in the group, to set the ball rolling. It seems to
me that
it works somewhat like bio evolution or technology, at some points it
moves
along slow and steady and through accretion and at other points there
is a
great leap or spurt, maybe because of a catastrophe or maybe just
random good
luck, maybe the right person(s) being at the right place at the right
time.
And how it spreads is simple, if it provides a benefit or makes life
easier,
people will adopt it pretty quickly, in some form or another. Humans
are
social creatures, so no innovation is going to stay a secret for long.
Besides, information is a commodity, so once things like domesticated
animals
and plants, agricultural technology, building technology, etc.
develope, they
are shared or traded pretty quickly along established communication
channels
between peoples. I have time to tackle one more question before I have
to go,
about the why? That is one of Anthro's big questions that I'm not sure
we will
ever be able to answer fully and to everyone's satisfaction and again,
it may
be different for different peoples at different times. But, remember
when I
mentioned conditions, well it seems that a certain level of population
density
needs to be in place, and maybe they need to be constrained within a
certain
amount of space that starts to put pressure on resources. A lot of
Anthro
people think that these of key conditions that force people onto the
road of
civilization. So, if there are a lot of people who are having more and
more
difficulty finding enough food, then they start to look to other
sources and
new technologies to solve the problem. Grasses and the domestication
of
grasses seems to be one of those leaps that people make early on in
learning
how to tend and cultivate plants that will provide a food that you can
stockpile and store. When you have a stable food supply to last year
long,
then you are not forced to move from place to place. People can stay
put,
build permanent housing, create and collect stuff, spend more time
making
tools, keeping permanent records, and so on. Domesticating animals
comes along
shortly afterward and within a very brief time (culturewise that is)
people will
have mastered agriculture to the point of depending on it fully for
their food
stocks and then you are on the road to civilization. Because from this
point
on, there is food enough to fuel population increase, more free time
for people
to elaborate social institutions, surplus food that can be traded for
other
things, so economic diversification, and so on.

Well, that is my crash course. I've gotta go to lunch,

Take care John,

Abrazos, Chris


I'd add this idea I got out of this dialog, social evolution is the same as bio evolution. Take Darwin’s finches, one species of finch can evolve quite quickly to form a different beak just from climate change, changing the seeds on which the finches eat. One thing, though, we evolve not just biologically we evolve socially as well. This is what sets humans apart from all other creatures on this planet, our brains. With our brains and intellect we can evolve to survive just by evolving our social structures or psychology or intellect/knowledge instead of our physical selves to overcome our stressors. Just like Darwin’s finches too, we can evolve quite quickly if the right circumstances and environmental stressors exist. This would make figuring out what specifically happened because their is no physical trace to look at and compare so we must deduce what MAY have happened to cause such evolution in our social structures and it probably WAS different for the different groups in the world.

[Edited by John(Chicago) on 01-10-2006 at 06:19 PM]

[Steve Wiggins]

http://www.ventrella.com/Alife/Evolution_of_Alife/ascent_5.jpg

[John(Chicago)]

Ya know, this very idea of social evolution or intellectual evolution is the very idea that I had when I started to keep a diary to my girls. In it I talk about things going on in my life or with them or the world in general. I give them my perceptions and I cronicle the history of events in my life as they happen. I hope this will be like the experience an adult has over an adolecent in a form that they can have so as to give them a head start in life. I hope they can see from MY experiences what and how the world works so they can make better more informed decitions in their own lifes and possible avoid the pain that I have had in mine. This is to me, my way of evolving socially and intellectually; I am litterally making my off spring better than I was by documenting the enviornmental stressors that have effected me.

[braces4impact]

If he wants to know what came before people settled in permanent
villages and
began farming (roots of Civilization), then the answer is that they
were
nomadic hunter/gatherer/foragers since the Pliocene when modern Homo
sapiens
emerge in Africa.

Johg Chicago your sisters mind is entrapped by satan. The bible clearly states that man came from what we now know as moderday Iraq. She will burn in hell forever unles she accepts the lord and rejects this garbage from these liberal collage institutions.

[acmanko]

Johg Chicago your sisters mind is entrapped by satan. The bible clearly states that man came from what we now know as moderday Iraq. She will burn in hell forever unles she accepts the lord and rejects this garbage from these liberal collage institutions straight from the bowels of hell

[RoBoTeq]

Hey Steve! What's up with posting a picture of naked men doing different activities?

[Edited by RoBoTeq on 01-10-2006 at 11:40 PM]

[acmanko]

we all needed a good laugh

[braces4impact]

.....straight from the bowels of hell

nice ending I like that..

How'd you like a contract?

[John(Chicago)]

well at least I'll have family there when I arrive. I, of corse, will be in hell for employment purposes though.

[lilquiz]

it would be very nice if there was a book that answered all the mysteries..like where the designs that can only be seen by aircraft in Peru came from. what gave the ancient egyptions the idea behind the primitive battery they made, that produces enough current to electroplate metals.also where do all the left socks go...we may never know

[acmanko]

Originally posted by braces4impact

.....straight from the bowels of hell

nice ending I like that..

How'd you like a contract? well, it didnt come out the way I intended

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by John(Chicago)
The question of why does civilization seem to spread from a single point, well I think it is because people (humans) come originally from Africa and have lived and adapted to the surroundings in Africa for the longest.

Well John I actually have a BA in Anthropolgy and archaeology myself.

Seems a bit odd to me that we might have evidence of past forms of humanity that go back 6 million years, (ie. Homo habilis, Homo erectus, etc.) and yet during all that time there is no evidance of prior civilization.

Surley in 6 million years time someone would have attempted to build some form of civilaztion, even a small one. It is a statistical improbibility that civilization would not have manifested itself in an earlier failed mutation of some sort. If humans evolved then it would only be logical that civilization also evolved.

So why don't we have any evidance of failed civizations prior to 6,000 years ago?

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 01-11-2006 at 02:10 AM]

[John(Chicago)]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia

Originally posted by John(Chicago)
The question of why does civilization seem to spread from a single point, well I think it is because people (humans) come originally from Africa and have lived and adapted to the surroundings in Africa for the longest.

Well John I actually have a BA in Anthropolgy and archaeology myself.

Seems a bit odd to me that we might have evidence of past forms of humanity that go back 6 million years, (ie. Homo habilis, Homo erectus, etc.) and yet during all that time there is no evidance of prior civilization.

Surley in 6 million years time someone would have attempted to build some form of civilaztion, even a small one. It is a statistical improbibility that civilization would not have manifested itself in an earlier failed mutation of some sort. If humans evolved then it would only be logical that civilization also evolved.

So why don't we have any evidance of failed civizations prior to 6,000 years ago?

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 01-11-2006 at 02:10 AM]

I'll bet we do, but we havent found it yet. Those civilizations were probably very primative and thus, not many and not preserved well enough. Just as there are most likely many more dinosars then we know of but havent found yet or their evidence has been completely wiped from this planet. I would venture to say the best evidence would be found around the same site that they found that homo-erectus skeliton in Africa.

[John(Chicago)]

HEY! refrigeration mafia, how bout we go to Africa and show those Anthro's how it's done and find that evidence, huh....

[tonys]

BA in Anthropolgy???

ain't THAT someth'n...

[bootlen]

Originally posted by tonys
BA in Anthropolgy???

ain't THAT someth'n...


Just means he's educated beyond his intelligence. Sound familiar?

[acmanko]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by tonys
BA in Anthropolgy???

ain't THAT someth'n...


Just means he's educated beyond his intelligence. Sound familiar? Please quit talking about our President in that tone

[bootlen]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by tonys
BA in Anthropolgy???

ain't THAT someth'n...


Just means he's educated beyond his intelligence. Sound familiar?

Take ac, for instance. He was educated beyond his intelligence soon as he was potty trained.

[MikeJ]

http://www.coastvillage.com/origins/links.htm

[acmanko]

Bootlen Knows all that,just ask him.

[tonys]

it IS written.

[caosesvida]

i would guess that some civilizations that may have existed have/had been destroyed by nature, or buried so deep we havn"t found them. Some civilizations like the austrialian aborigines don't seem to build anything to have a civilization so there may have been great ones that just did a lot of wondering and tree hugging.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by caosesvida
i would guess that some civilizations that may have existed have/had been destroyed by nature, or buried so deep we havn"t found them.

Seems to me that if a tsunami and a huracane (As we have seen recently) could wipe out a bunch of cities on the coastline, then a worldwide catastropic flood would completely destroy everything including any evidence of prior civilizations.

[the prophet]

one of the early cities of sumer,Enkidu.. from @ 5000 BC(7000 years ago)

the records in existance give their records of prehistory.. which have since become creation stories of the worlds religions, like christianity and judeasism and islam....

we have no proof that these stories of creation are true, but they offer a narrative of how they came to be there... they are not mutually exclusive with the information science has shown to be our beginnings....

a blend of creationism and evolution. stories of the gods, who came here, and ran the mines in africa. where they created a crossbreed with their traits and indigenous evolving animals,"the blackheaded people"...and ran the mines for what for us was eons.... before they allowed some of the surviving creations to have their own"first city"...the stories go back for hundreds of thousands of years....

In an old1888 text book, they were talking about how, the three main sources for what they were coming to know of egypt, were qualified by what they knew from the bible...

a priest, named "mantheo".. who was a major source to ancient writing, as he knew the languages.... had recounted a dynastic history of egypt going back 25,000 years... but the "experts"(knowing that the bible says the earth only existed for 6000 years) took his word for the last 6000 years, but discounted the rest of that history because they KNEW it must be false...

then there are the hindu sanskrit vedas and that group of ancient sources...

there was also another book from @1915.. called? forbidden knowledge.. or forbidden history..(is that the book mentioned before?)
this book includes pieces of artifacts that were in possession of world meuseams... that don't "fit" the view of what the world came from....

like pieces of formed metallic shapes.. embedded in rocks.. that were at least 50,000 years old.there are anomolies in existance... that don't fit.. so generally, they are forgotten.because we can't make a definitive answer as to what happened...
but these few pieces of unexplainable factual evidence.. means there is more to the story....

after all... there were many places... maybe most surviving evolutionary brances came from africa.. but who knows what else may have existed.even the recent find of the pygmie people like creatures on that island.. add to what we thought existed....

and if in one spot, aliens to this planet landed... that wouldn't effect all the other indigenous peoples who were never to meet them...


then there is other non provable accounts of what happened here like the records of the edgar cayce readings... which you can take as whatever you want.. as far as reality....

but his health readings were accurate...that doesn't in itself prove his history readings were.


you could get into the questions of atlantis and mu....which may have been pangea or something....

everything is lost to history..

and then there is the human pattern of leadrs who take over , destroying the evidence of older leaders....

like the catholic missionaries, who upon coming to the new world destroyed as many of their records of their history as they could...

or the destruction of libraries like at alexandria...


or even the practice of pharos who become leader, scratching out the names of leaders who came before them in the heiroglypics, and putting their names there as claims they were the ones who BUILT the pyramid in question...