at a loss

[Davelm]

3 ton, 2 year old, 15 seer. the compressor doesnt come on on the first try consistantly. replaced the fact. start cap and relay, replaced the sump heater and stat, replaced compressor, still the same problem. the system runs perfect otherwise. i'm not sure where to go from here.

[dan wong]

what is the voltage between common and run?

[Davelm]

not sure, dont have all my notes with me.

[hvacvegas]

3 ton, 2 year old, 15 seer. the compressor doesnt come on on the first try consistantly. replaced the fact. start cap and relay, replaced the sump heater and stat, replaced compressor, still the same problem. the system runs perfect otherwise. i'm not sure where to go from here.

"doesn't come on"
meaning....?
It's getting voltage, but not running?
The entire unit isn't running?
Your turning the unit on, nothing happens, pulling the DC, putting it back in and then it fires?


Sounds like you've replaced every part, alot of which wouldn't cause the problem.

5 minute compressor lock.....?

Sounds kinda like DIY.....

[Davelm]

25 years in the trade. i know what is not causing the problem, any of these things could be the cause (verified with factory rep) i'm just trying to get this solved

[jpsmith1cm]

Well, Dave, you can keep guessing at the problem, which it appears to me that you are, or you can sit yourself down in front of that unit and check everything. Sit there until you catch it in the act and then find out WHY it isn't starting.

Or you can continue to spend a whole lot of money NOT fixing the problem.

:.02:

[dan wong]

25 years in the trade. i know what is not causing the problem, any of these things could be the cause (verified with factory rep) i'm just trying to get this solved
Did it occure to you there maybe a "TIME DELAY"? Turn it on WAIT FIVE MINUTE. now does it run? Have you try the test pin trick?

[Davelm]

the fan comes right on, the compressor tries but dosn't, 15 to thirty seconds later it comes on. it al points at liquid in the crank case, thus the part changes

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

you should give us the details of all testing and a detailed list of all the parts that might or might not fix my 94 mustang.... thx J.Hall

[dan wong]

the fan comes right on, the compressor tries but dosn't, 15 to thirty seconds later it comes on. it al points at liquid in the crank case, thus the part changes
Try a kick start kit to get it going.
after it is running; what is Ambient temp? discharge and suction pressure? sub cooling? super heat? Amp draw on common? what refrigerant?

[Davelm]

im not looking to hear from premadonas, you have a lot to say but are no help,so please only real advice

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

hey man fill in the blanks and then we can help you fix the problem and quit guessing.

and what is wrong with Madonna?

[Davelm]

it has a factory kick start that was bad, put back in the factory replacement, every thing else is right on the numbers,

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

3 ton, 2 year old, 15 seer. the compressor doesnt come on on the first try consistantly. replaced the fact. start cap and relay, replaced the sump heater and stat, replaced compressor, still the same problem. the system runs perfect otherwise. i'm not sure where to go from here.

phonebook?

[Davelm]

obv. i need all the info i dont have with me, so thanks to those who tried to help. will be back monday evening

[jpsmith1cm]

im not looking to hear from premadonas, you have a lot to say but are no help,so please only real advice

Say what you will, but you haven't given ANY evidence to support you "diagnosis"

I've got a few ideas, by I'd be interested to see pressures and temperatures along with electrical data before I say anything more.

[a.desisto]

the fan comes right on, the compressor tries but dosn't, 15 to thirty seconds later it comes on. it al points at liquid in the crank case, thus the part changes

You said it has a sump heater; assuming you mean crankcase heater... If that is true then liquid in case probably not the cause. Have you checked your capacitors are the correct size? Any voltage drop across the contacts?

[CELSIUS]

Is this a recent problem, or going on since installation?

[trouble time]

How long is the line set? Does this system have a LLSV? I had a residential system with a 68 foot line set. It would act as you describe. I fixed this issue by putting in a LLSV, and a timer. When the stat called for cooling the LLSV (located close to the coil ) would open, three minutes later the contactor would pull in bringing on the system.

[GOVHVAC]

Have you checked the connections at the compressor?

[Snapperhead]

How long is the line set? I had a residential system with a 68 foot line set:eek2:

Did they hide the outdoor unit in the neighbors back yard ??

[timebuilder]

im not looking to hear from premadonas, you have a lot to say but are no help,so please only real advice

OK.

When you say the compressor "tries to start," I'm assuming the contactor is pulled in.

With a working sump heater, you would not have refrigerant migration, because the sump is no longer the coldest part of the system.

What is the current when the contactor pulls in?

BTW...

a premadona would be "before madona."

A primadonna, is the "first lady," as in the lead singer in an Italian Opera. :putergreet:

[millertime77]

How long is the line set? Does this system have a LLSV? I had a residential system with a 68 foot line set. It would act as you describe. I fixed this issue by putting in a LLSV, and a timer. When the stat called for cooling the LLSV (located close to the coil ) would open, three minutes later the contactor would pull in bringing on the system.

This is interesting, was it a heatpump? Because couldn't you just have put a check valve in the liquid line to keep all that pressure off the compressor?
Sorry for straying off topic, op is the heater getting voltage? Is it wired on the line side to be energized at all times, or just when the contactor is pulled in?

[manny238]

if i were to guess i would say you have a bad time delay relay or board.

[dan wong]

Common and Run wire hook up backward.

[Tommy1010]

need some readings, voltages, amps, megohms and stuff like that

come back with some info

[Lightning_Boy]

To the OP,

Chin up, I know it can be frustrating when you're stuck on a job and a request for help is met with more questions than answers. The guys on here are very protective of our trade and lively hood, but no where else will you find the breadth of knowledge and real field experience the HT collective can provide.

Step back, take readings and measurements all the way from the start of sequence of operations.

Anyway a few ideas...

15 Seer system should have an led error code legend on the access panel, it could be a low pressure switch or some such thing. Check this out, sometimes they're easy to miss(i.e small and faded)

I would also look at the furnace & 24v control board. I had a similar problem to this and found it was a faulty condensate switch.


Good luck

[martyinlincoln]

Pressures right before the compressor attempts to start would be a good thing to know. Any time delay built in?

[trouble time]

:eek2:

Did they hide the outdoor unit in the neighbors back yard ??

Nope. Just put it on the other side of the double car garage....

[trouble time]

This is interesting, was it a heatpump? Because couldn't you just have put a check valve in the liquid line to keep all that pressure off the compressor?
Sorry for straying off topic, op is the heater getting voltage? Is it wired on the line side to be energized at all times, or just when the contactor is pulled in?

No, not a heatpump. Just an A/C condenser. There is no cch, just start winding heat in the off cycle.
System has been running fine since my modification, about 15 years or so....

[pony]

hi did u find out what is wrong cause not enough power to start the compressor,it start second time to me is mean,everythignis running fine,just not enough juice to start it,

[PalmettoMaintPro]

I think this is DIY. At compressor replacement ,there should have been at least some idea of what was making it do it. 25 years and all the improper lingo. the diagnostic LEDs on the board should tell you what is going on. BTW FYI there is no such thing as factory kick start. There are factory start components. Don't come out the gate making us doubt your knowledge by saying you have replaced almost all the electrical components to no avail including the friggin compressor. You are the one making your self sound like DIY,not us. We will gladly help fellow tradesman. Just sayin:spitball:

[hvacvegas]

I think this is DIY. At compressor replacement ,there should have been at least some idea of what was making it do it. 25 years and all the improper lingo. the diagnostic LEDs on the board should tell you what is going on. BTW FYI there is no such thing as factory kick start. There are factory start components. Don't come out the gate making us doubt your knowledge by saying you have replaced almost all the electrical components to no avail including the friggin compressor. You are the one making your self sound like DIY,not us. We will gladly help fellow tradesman. Just sayin:spitball:

Would have been cheaper to install a new unit. :-P

[tipsrfine]

I've never been impressed by how long someone has been doing something wrong. A simple amp reading on start up should have given a point in the right direction. I only did service for 5 years, but wouldn't a high pressure switch shut off the compressor, but leave the fan running?
Reminds me of a customer who diognosed his own problem. Didn't want to pay for a diognostic charge to see what the problem was. Wanting us to come out on a weekend and replace the compressor. I came out and replaced it. On start up, the low pressure switch kept cutting the unit off. It was faulty. (what, a $ dollar part?). He paid over $ that day to replace a $ dollar part.

[timebuilder]

3 ton, 2 year old, 15 seer. the compressor doesnt come on on the first try consistantly. replaced the fact. start cap and relay, replaced the sump heater and stat, replaced compressor, still the same problem. the system runs perfect otherwise. i'm not sure where to go from here.

Okay, so what's the story?????????????

[hvacvegas]

I've never been impressed by how long someone has been doing something wrong. A simple amp reading on start up should have given a point in the right direction. I only did service for 5 years, but wouldn't a high pressure switch shut off the compressor, but leave the fan running?
Reminds me of a customer who diognosed his own problem. Didn't want to pay for a diognostic charge to see what the problem was. Wanting us to come out on a weekend and replace the compressor. I came out and replaced it. On start up, the low pressure switch kept cutting the unit off. It was faulty. (what, a$ dollar part?). He paid over$ that day to replace a $ dollar part.

You changed a compressor on the weekend for about $!?!

[tipsrfine]

You changed a compressor on the weekend for about $!?!

I remember my boss saying $ something. Whatever the compressor cost + mark-up and five hours of overtime labor. I know I didn't make anything other than usual wages.

[jpsmith1cm]

Gentlemen....

Pricing discussion in open forums.

:bhave:

[timebuilder]

It must have been a reeeeeeealy small compressor...........

[beenthere]

No prices in the open forums please, thank you.

[tipsrfine]

Not complaining, but I thought I was in the pro only forum. I don't really see the point of a "tech to tech" forum that is public. What are we, the pro's supposed to talk about in this forum that the public can read?
Regarding the price being cheap for that compressor change out, it was 5 years ago, but still, no wonder customers price shop as much as they do. That price is not something an average homeowner can just pull out of the pocket.

[diverdan]

and when you are up a new problem to diagnose and get it figured out always say to yourself " I won!"
When I meet a new customer, if they seem nervous about having to get it repaired I just smile and calmly tell them "I always win and I'll diagnose and resolve your problem."
And occasionally I actually do get an occasional problem with something I've never run into before. That's when the going gets fun and gets that brain exercising :)

[timebuilder]

and when you are up a new problem to diagnose and get it figured out always say to yourself " I won!"
When I meet a new customer, if they seem nervous about having to get it repaired I just smile and calmly tell them "I always win and I'll diagnose and resolve your problem."
And occasionally I actually do get an occasional problem with something I've never run into before. That's when the going gets fun and gets that brain exercising :)


The "finding out" is why I do this.

[Snapperhead]

The "finding out" is why I do this. Isnt it funny how you dont feel like you accomplished much by merely doing maint.

I too need something to chase down in order to feel good.

[jpsmith1cm]

Tipsrfine,

The 'tech-to-tech' forums are for non Professional Member 'Pros' to have a place to post semi-technical stuff to build post count to qualify for professional membership.

Make sense?

[dan wong]

Tipsrfine,

The 'tech-to-tech' forums are for non Professional Member 'Pros' to have a place to post semi-technical stuff to build post count to qualify for professional membership.

Make sense?

I think 'tech-to-tech' is misleading and I interpret it the same as Tipsrfne. Maybe you can re-label it Somthing like; "Technical discussion for the non-Pro members" *public forum"

[dan wong]

......
Regarding the price being cheap for that compressor change out, it was 5 years ago, but still, no wonder customers price shop as much as they do. That price is not something an average homeowner can just pull out of the pocket.

Many customer use internet. They have pretty good idea what "market" price is.

[timebuilder]

Many customer use internet. They have pretty good idea what "market" price is.

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that they THINK they have a pretty good idea of what market is, because they cannot compare the various aspects of the cost of an installation or repair that will apply to an individual situation, in a particular geographical area.

One area where the internet leaves SO much to be desired in terms of accuracy is real estate. I have seen estimates of value in stable markets given on the internet that are as much as 30% incorrect.

[wiltroutd]

If all your capacitors test good when you read them with a tester that actually displays the microfarad output....verify all high voltage wiring is correct per diagram. You may have a problem with the indoor txv being tight. I've had this problem with before and installed a time delay -on-break timer set on 7 minutes before the pressures equalized enough for the compressor to start, even with a hard start capacitor. You may want to watch your pressures when it shuts off and see if they equalize fast or very slowly. If slowly , you may want to change that indoor txv.

[hvacvegas]

No prices in the open forums please, thank you.

DANGIT TIPS!

You lured me!

[Tommy1010]

BTW FYI there is no such thing as factory kick start.

better double check your scources on that one

[beenthere]

better double check your scources on that one big timer

York use to use them on the T4 line.

[timebuilder]

Factory installs of start components used to be VERY common. In fact, the problematic Puron machine I was working on the other day had them, as well.


You may have a problem with the indoor txv being tight.

You may have a txv that is designed to be closed when it is throttled down, too.

[PalmettoMaintPro]

better double check your scources on that one

I am aware that there are factory start componenents , I have just never heard them called "factory kick starts". I have not seen all types of controls ,just this term was new one to me. I know there are the normal silver caps and the black plastic start caps and relay combonations I have seen used . I know that a hard start is a solid state relay /start cap combo usaully used in place of the factory installed ones when the unit is a little tired . Oh well no sense in arguing about it , I was just sayin I have never heard it called that before.

[Tommy1010]

I am aware that there are factory start componenents , I have just never heard them called "factory kick starts"

yes "kickstart" brand start kits have been used as OEM start kits on a few different condensersin the past