When YOU die...

[drycold]

What do YOU think happens to You when you die?
I don’t mean some morbid bastard drains your blood, fixes your hair, and sticks you in a box for people to walk by and say "he looks so peaceful" and cry a lot(or maybe cheer in my case!). I mean what happens to your "spirit"?

I am hoping to get responses, and not start some major debate.

I am curious if someone is a true Atheist, do they think that’s it, game over? The few Atheist’s I know seem to be just as nice to people around them as the good Christians are, So why do they care about anyone but themselves? What is the motivation?
Do they think they have a "spirit" in them?

When it comes right down to it, no one really knows for sure.
But I was curious about what people thought.


[Edited by drycold on 12-28-2005 at 01:36 PM]

[bootlen]

Believers know. "Apart from the body, together with the Lord."

The body dies, the spirit exists eternally in one of 2 places...with God or apart from God. Existing with God is referred to as "life". Existing apart from God is referred to as "death". If you are with God(as is the case for all believers), you will be in Heaven or in the new earth. If you are apart from God (all non-believers), you will spend all your eternity in hell. But the decision is made before physical death by you as to what happens to you. Each person chooses for himself or herself.

"Today is the day of salvation." Your next breath is not a promise but a privilege.

[scrogdog]

I am agnostic, not athiest.

Still, I think that the most likely scenario is "lights out".

My "spirit" is a bunch of electrical impulses moving through the synapse of my brain. Once my brain dies, so does "my spirit".

[Edited by scrogdog on 12-28-2005 at 02:18 PM]

[ruud-man]

I too, am agnostic.

Mortality is a part of life. Whether we accept it or not, the game is over. Nada, zip, over.

For all man's history this fear of death and finality has been recognized as a strong emotion. In many cases this fear has been exploited for personal gain.

For as far back as recorded history goes, there is most always a priest, shamman, or some sort of holy station in every culture. Most are offering immortality in one form or another.

I don't buy it.


Best regards...

[bootlen]

Not trying to hijack the thread but I do have a question for scrog and ruud. Since you are agnostic, I take it that you will believe it when you see it? If that is true, what if you are wrong in your assumptions about the hereafter and I am right?

[drycold]

Thank you for your reply's.

So, is it just human nature to be kind or mean for a lack of better words, to one another? Do you two think that in general you treat others well?
I am curious without the "I want to go to heaven" motivation if it is just built into humans to be one way or another. Just a persons "legacy" left behind is kind of a sad thought. I suddenly feel very alone.

I never thought that I would be able to see things from refrigeration mafia's point of view, and I am not sure if I like that or not!

[scrogdog]

Bootlen, yes, of course... I will believe it when I see it.

If you are right, then I shall burn in hell for eternity.

However, I'll take that. Why?

Because the God that you describe has NO SHOT to be MY God. None at all.

Robo's God has a shot. But then, Robo's God would judge my life for what it is or was, not whether or not I "believed".

It seems rather petty to me that an all-powerful being would require folks to worship him. But perhaps it is just me. Plus, a host of other things that I find... well... ungodly. Like being judgemental on the basis of belief and not my actual life. A lot of things.

I hope that did not offend you, my friend. :)

[scrogdog]

So, is it just human nature to be kind or mean for a lack of better words, to one another? Do you two think that in general you treat others well?

I'm not sure it is "natural" to be civilized. But part of being human is rising above our baser instincts.

I do not feel like I need any God to do that. I can do it quite well on my own thank you very much.

[ruud-man]

I, for one, do not need the fear of punishment after death as a motivation to do what is right and practice kindness and generousity toward my fellow humans.

I am not willing to hang my hat on a collection of stories written by authors who lived in a time when even the most fundimental science was mistaken as a sign of a supreme being.

If you choose to do so, that is your perogative.

Best regards...

[md master]

I believe what the bible relates to us.
KJV-Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten".

The dead are conscience of nothing, if they were in heaven or a hell then they would be conscous or "know" they were there right? If they weren't conscious then heaven wouldn't be much of a reward and hell would not be much of a punishment
KJV-Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest".

Again you have no knowledge or awareness of your condition after you die. Jesus likened it to "sleep".
KJV-John 11:11-14 "11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus SLEEPETH; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is DEAD".

But what is the future for the dead?
KJV- John 5:28-29 "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth".

KJV- Acts 24:15 "15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust".

So the dead are awaiting a resurrection to life on earth once again.

How did we get to this sad condition of life filled with sickness and eventual death?

Job 14:1-2 " Man, that is born of a woman, Is of few days, and full of trouble. 2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: He fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not".

[bootlen]

Originally posted by drycold
Thank you for your reply's.

So, is it just human nature to be kind or mean for a lack of better words, to one another? Do you two think that in general you treat others well?
I am curious without the "I want to go to heaven" motivation if it is just built into humans to be one way or another. Just a persons "legacy" left behind is kind of a sad thought. I suddenly feel very alone.

I never thought that I would be able to see things from refrigeration mafia's point of view, and I am not sure if I like that or not!



Actually, it is human nature to be "mean". Kindness has its source in God alone.

Do I treat others well? Whoa, dude. That's one I will have to do some personal inventory on. I am kind to most people I come in contact with but, generally, I am brash on this forum. I lack patience, I know. It's one of many things God is working on in me.

You can take refrigeration mafia's posts and totally ignore them and you will be much beter off for it. They are evil in every sense of the word and not worthy of of response. I am not saying this out of brashness but out of truth.

[scrogdog]

Kindness has its source in God alone.

Hogwash.

You some something Boot? I can disagree with Geer or Remember or Refrig and NOT think of them as evil! In fact, I would like to say to them that while we disagree on many things (except science), that all that each of us wants is a better world and a better America. We just disagree on what that means and how to get there. Still, it should not make us enemies.

Your reply pretty much illustrates my case for me. :) To proclaim someone as "evil" because you disagree with their politics is... well... not the words I would expect from a man of God.

Sorry.

[geerair]

Originally posted by drycold

I am curious if someone is a true Atheist, do they think that’s it, game over? Yes.


The few Atheist’s I know seem to be just as nice to people around them as the good Christians are, So why do they care about anyone but themselves? What is the motivation? I want to live a fulfilled, happy life. To me, part of living that kind of life means caring and loving people. What more motivation is needed?





Do they think they have a "spirit" in them?I would call it self-awareness or ego. If you mean a presence installed by a supernatural being, no.



When it comes right down to it, no one really knows for sure.True, but the evidence does not support an after-life.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by scrogdog
Bootlen, yes, of course... I will believe it when I see it.

If you are right, then I shall burn in hell for eternity.

However, I'll take that. Why?

Because the God that you describe has NO SHOT to be MY God. None at all.

Robo's God has a shot. But then, Robo's God would judge my life for what it is or was, not whether or not I "believed".

It seems rather petty to me that an all-powerful being would require folks to worship him. But perhaps it is just me. Plus, a host of other things that I find... well... ungodly. Like being judgemental on the basis of belief and not my actual life. A lot of things.

I hope that did not offend you, my friend. :)

You may not be, but you sound like someone with much anger about something. No response needed to this. Just an observation on my part.

Offend me? Maybe a little but I am not your judge. I am sure that God is offended, though. But the thing is, He is no more offended by what you said than he is by my impatience. If my impatience is contrary to His will, I have chosen death over life (see my first post this thread). To choose to do anything contrary to God's will is cause for separation from Him. If this were not so, God would not, could not, be God. He is absolutely holy and absolutely pure. The tiniest sin allowed into His Kingdom would make Him less than absolutely holy and absolutely pure. He would then be less than God.

So you are like 99.999% of all mankind. You (we)are more concerned with the will of man rather than the will of God. You (we) fear man more than God. That is why you (we) sin.

But, He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him by coming from glory to earth, becoming a man, and dying in our place.

BTW, I, and all believers, will be judged for what we do and rewarded accordingly. Our sins, each one, have been and will be "cast into the sea of forgetfulness"...not because God has a bad memory but because He will "remember them against me no more". That means He chooses to not remember them against us because we believe in Christ as our advocate, our lawyer as it were.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen
Kindness has its source in God alone.Demostrably false.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by scrogdog

Kindness has its source in God alone.

Hogwash.

You some something Boot? I can disagree with Geer or Remember or Refrig and NOT think of them as evil! In fact, I would like to say to them that while we disagree on many things (except science), that all that each of us wants is a better world and a better America. We just disagree on what that means and how to get there. Still, it should not make us enemies.

Your reply pretty much illustrates my case for me. :) To proclaim someone as "evil" because you disagree with their politics is... well... not the words I would expect from a man of God.

Sorry.

Scrog, I never said someone is evil because of his politics. If you are talking about what I said about refer, look at his posts and you will see that many of them are of a non-political nature. If someone is evil spiritually, then he is evil in all facets of life.

Do I think someone can be a Democrat without being evil? Of course. Do I think someone can be a liberal and not be evil? Yes. I don't believe geer is evil for his politics. Just misinformed. I don't even think remember is evil! Just grossly misinformed.

All good, in any form, however it may be expressed, has its source in God alone. That truth (or any other) does not require your belief to be truth.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
Kindness has its source in God alone.Demostrably false.



This should be good.

Go ahead, geer. Demonstrate.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair
the evidence does not support an after-life.




What evidence?

[coolwhip]

I believe that when a person dies, they transgress into a higher form of conciousness. I believe that we are all here for a reason weather we know it or not. Those that take their own life do not transgress and are born again at one time or another to learn lifes lessons. Those who die that are wicked by nature digress and become earth bound spirits and are stuck in limbo between this conciousness and the next. We are energy, and that cannot be destroyed. Just changed. Thats my .02

[refrigeration mafia]

I'm agnostic.

I know one thing for certain, I haven't heard a peep outta my grandparents since they died.

The thing about life is that no one is getting out of it alive.

If you are not careful about what you believe, some schister will come along with his hand out, looking for a handout. They will fill you head full of fables about a mythical place called heavan where all the women are 110lbs and have 40DD boobs and everyone has a clean credit report.

[skrewt]

You haven't heard anything from your grandparents since they died?

You must've sucked as a grandchild.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by skrewt
You haven't heard anything from your grandparents since they died?

You must've sucked as a grandchild.

Oh contrair my screwy friend.

When they were alive I used to talk to them all the time. Damndest thing though. As soon as they died I never heard from them again. Pretty inconsiderate actually. You think they would have stopped in at least once and said something about the afterlife. Like, 'Havin a blast, we can't wait until you join us' or something.

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 12-28-2005 at 05:40 PM]

[bootlen]

Ever hear the story "Lazarus and the rich man"?

Yeah. Didn't think so.

[skrewt]

It will probably be because boot-lickin democrats kicked my door in and tried to take my guns away.


HA HA HA come and get em!

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by bootlen
Ever hear the story "Lazarus and the rich man"?

Yeah. Didn't think so.

Heavan isn't for the rich.

Heavan is for the poor and middle class.

Any further discussion about this particular story is pointless. You've got yourself a one way ticket to the golden gates son. Do not pass go, just collect your reward.

[RoBoTeq]

Well, I have been pretty open about how I feel about this subject in many past threads. I believe that we are primarily spiritual and are on a temporary physical journey. There is at least one misconception of my belief in God.

Scrog; I believe that my God is the same God that anyone else with any belief in God throughout history has had, unless of course there is a worship of God's dark side, Satan.

I do not believe that mortal deeds get us to be with God (in heaven), but rather our faith. Yes, I do believe that what God wants from us is a loving relationship. No, I don't believe it is a matter of being smited if we do not worship God but rather being left with no spiritual love if we do not develope a meaningful relationship with God. And yes, I do believe that there are many who have a meaningful relationship with God that do not outwardly recognize that relationship the same as Christians do.

If anything, Christianity as it is being practiced today is a barrier to having a relationship with God.

Since we are primarily spiritual beings, we existed before we became mortal and we will exist after our mortal lives have ended. Why we are being subjected to this physical existance is beyond my comprehension, although I have several "out there" theories.

So; what happens to us when we die? Well, I do believe that the answer is between the covers of the Bible. I just don't think we are yet able to understand the answer. Remember, Biblically speaking, it was Satan that gave us knowledge before we could handle it. It would seem that this "forbidden" knowledge has been the cause of most of mankinds problems over the centuries and seems to promise being a problem for some time to come.

I digressed. I believe that when we die we shed our physical bodies, exit this Created physical existance and return to a purely spiritual existance where God dwells.

The biblical references to death being like sleep and our not having consciesness after physical death seems to be the time period between our physical death and our spiritual selves being judged to determine whether or not we will be with God or without God. Notice the continutity with this belief between booty and myself.

Now, where I part ways with boots is in believing that man is inherently evil and must learn to be good by his faith in God. I believe that we are a clean slate that has the choice between choosing good or evil. Depending on how we are taught of course also has an affect on how we make our decisions, but in the end, we have the free will to choose good or evil in every aspect of our daily mortal lives.

So, yes, I beilieve that we will live in our true spiritual state after our physical bodies have expired.

[braces4impact]

I treat people right because I know that in the long run it is salubrious to my own well being.

[skrewt]

Whoa baby, that's a 10 dollar word.

[ozone drone]

[i]Originally posted by drycold [/

I am curious if someone is a true Atheist, do they think that’s it, game over? The few Atheist’s I know seem to be just as nice to people around them as the good Christians are, So why do they care about anyone but themselves? What is the motivation?
Do they think they have a "spirit" in them?

[Edited by drycold on 12-28-2005 at 01:36 PM] [/B]

Worm Food.....So what's the motivation? There's still a sense of right and wrong and the desire to not be ashamed of the face seen in the mirror while shaving. If one is "good" merely because they're afraid of hell and the devil and the consequences of being bad...then are they truly good?

I've seen more love and trust and innate goodness in some dogs and cats than I've seen in many people. This planet is basically one big food chain where everything that is alive is only alive because it consumes other living things.

[coolwhip]

Yet we are the only creature on this planet that does not fit into the food chain. We are not part of the ecological web. By being such, it makes us the only living organism that takes and does not put back.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by coolwhip
Yet we are the only creature on this planet that does not fit into the food chain. We are not part of the ecological web. By being such, it makes us the only living organism that takes and does not put back.

We make artificial reefs.

[double bubble]

Here is what I think or agree with .

There are more things in heaven and earth,Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy .
-William Shakespeare

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by braces4impact

Originally posted by coolwhip
Yet we are the only creature on this planet that does not fit into the food chain. We are not part of the ecological web. By being such, it makes us the only living organism that takes and does not put back.

We make artificial reefs.


hahahaha.....


We do put pack, just not into the food chain....Unless you get lost on a hiking or hunting trip, and that mountain lion does find you...

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
Kindness has its source in God alone.Demostrably false.



This should be good.

Go ahead, geer. Demonstrate. Easy.

P1- There is kindness in the world.

P2- There is no god.

C1- God is not the source of kindness.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
Kindness has its source in God alone.Demostrably false.



This should be good.

Go ahead, geer. Demonstrate. Easy.

P1- There is kindness in the world.

P2- There is no god.

C1- God is not the source of kindness.

This is your demonstration? LOL It's a joke, right?

RIGHT?

Is this really geer?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

My question was, "What evidence?" That's what you call lack of evidence...which is exactly what I knew you'd come up with.

If you choose to contiue to look silly, press on.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
Kindness has its source in God alone.Demostrably false.



This should be good.

Go ahead, geer. Demonstrate. Easy.

P1- There is kindness in the world.

P2- There is no god.

C1- God is not the source of kindness.

This is your demonstration? LOL It's a joke, right?

RIGHT?

Is this really geer? That's it. Refute it logically and syllogistically

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

My question was, "What evidence?" That's what you call lack of evidence...which is exactly what I knew you'd come up with.

If you choose to contiue to look silly, press on. Refute it.

[bootlen]

Consider both your idiotic posts refuted.

[geerair]

Sorry we cannot accept that as there has been absolutely no effort to refute. Try again.

[oroy54]

Jesus said to the theif on their crosses. I will see you in paradice. Now where is Paradice? Para? Anyway is there any one in heaven? I don't think so. Isn't there suposed to be a judgment day? We all are, and will, stand before God and be accountable for his or her actions. I hope the good Lord will be mercyful on us curious guys.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by oroy54
Jesus said to the theif on their crosses. I will see you in paradice. Now where is Paradice? Para? Anyway is there any one in heaven? I don't think so. Isn't there suposed to be a judgment day? We all are, and will, stand before God and be accountable for his or her actions. I hope the good Lord will be mercyful on us curious guys.


When you die, you step into eternity. Eternity, by definition, does not have a timeline as we percieve timelines. So don't go there.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair
Sorry we cannot accept that as there has been absolutely no effort to refute. Try again.

Funny. That applies to all of your posts.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Funny. That applies to all of your posts. Still no effort to refute. Call the dogs in.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen

Funny. That applies to all of your posts. Still no effort to refute. Call the dogs in.

Yup. Call 'em in. 'Cause teh dogs are all ya got. And they ain't nothin'.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen

Funny. That applies to all of your posts. Still no effort to refute. Call the dogs in.

Yup. Call 'em in. 'Cause teh dogs are all ya got. And they ain't nothin'. Still nothing in the way of refutation. Piss on the fire.

[tonys]

There's a whole-lotta refuting going on in this thread...

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

This is just stupid. Just because no one can find an intelligent post by geer does not mean he doesn't have a brain.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

This is just stupid. Just because no one can find an intelligent post by geer does not mean he doesn't have a brain.

Right you are. There's just no proof it is a usable brain.

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen
What evidence? The evidence of thousands of failed experiments to contact the alleged other world.

This is just stupid. Just because no one can find an intelligent post by geer does not mean he doesn't have a brain. Nothing here but some very, very bad grammar. Try again.

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Right you are. There's just no proof it is a usable brain. No refutation. Turn out the lights.

[RoBoTeq]

Give it up geer. The more people like you make such a big deal over the faith of others, the more we are convinced that what we fell is the Truth. Why else would people work so hard for Satan to try to undermine our beliefs?

[tonys]

Satan?

o.k.

So, what's the 'latest' explanation on the red-faced-angle-dude?
Does he still live at the center of the earth?
Or, has he been relocated to another location, ya'know to fit yet another convenient story, etc. etc. etc.???

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Give it up geer. The more people like you make such a big deal over the faith of others, the more we are convinced that what we fell is the Truth. Why else would people work so hard for Satan to try to undermine our beliefs? Working hard? Me? Bawhahahaha. You are all over every single jesus post laboring mightily to plug up gaping holes in your sinking apologetics vessel.

[bootlen]

Yeah, geer. That's what we're doing.

[refrigeration mafia]

Apparently Jesus got to live forever after death. What will you guys get out of life, since the likelihood that you will live forever like Jesus is slim to none?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
Apparently Jesus got to live forever after death. What will you guys get out of life, since the likelihood that you will live forever like Jesus is slim to none?

There is some truth to what you say. "Wide is the road that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate that leads to life."

[scrogdog]

Robin said;


Scrog; I believe that my God is the same God that anyone else with any belief in God throughout history has had, unless of course there is a worship of God's dark side, Satan.

Yes, I know that. I was simply pointing out that even among believers there are several "versions" (if you will) of Him.

Isn't it also true that you believe that the gods of other religions are simply different perceptions of the same god? Your pardon if I misunderstood you on that, but I would say that Boot is probably not alone in his opposition to that concept. :)

Whether or not your belief is true is, of course, open to debate. However, in my mind IT SHOULD BE TRUE. Or else god has only revealed "the truth" to a small select group. That would make god "an elitist".

Universal truth should be... well... universal. And easy to grasp. How easy is it to grasp I wonder when we see the topics and discussions about religion occurring right here, right in our face? Beleivers can't even agree, but the rest of us should hold these principles and beliefs as truth? What truth?

For me, I think it all boils down to my lack of ability to accept the intangible. In all things. As I said to Remember in another discussion, my mind just does not work that way. That is not to say that I am better or believers worse... it is simply that religion is very much "not my way".

[Edited by scrogdog on 12-29-2005 at 09:22 AM]

[scrogdog]

Kindness has its source in God alone.

As for this little ditty... :)

Ok, my Dad is an athiest, my Mom agnostic.

They "accidentally" taught me to be kind to my fellow man? God has never been in my life... so by extension... I cannot be kind?

This concept seems very silly to me, I am sorry. Plenty of people in history have been judged as "kind" without being religious at all.

[drycold]

scrog, and all of the Agnostics/Athiests, I am also curious about your Christmas time during your childhood and with your own children. Do you get gifts and give gifts to them, or do they just know that it is just an evil celebration that you choose not to participate in? Are your kids O.K. with that with regards to not getting gifts? Are they allowed to associate with kids that believe in Jesus? I imagine there are many difficulties that I have not thought of from your shoes.
I have learned a lot from everyone’s posts. I am not a narrow minded person, and like to see things from others perspective.

"This is just stupid. Just because no one can find an intelligent post by geer does not mean he doesn't have a brain."

I disagree with robo on this. I find geer to be very witty and seems well read. I have LOL at many of the posts on this thread.

Thanks to everyone for my education here.

[scrogdog]

scrog, and all of the Agnostics/Athiests, I am also curious about your Christmas time during your childhood and with your own children.

I do not have children… however, my brother’s kids come to stay with us every other weekend. So, I do get to deal with certain issues and questions.

As a kid, I had no idea what the spiritual meaning of Christmas was. All we knew was that it was a time of sharing and family. And Santa and pine trees. :) Same thing with Easter… it was about candy and hunting for eggs and decorating them. I barely knew who Jesus was. Some would say that I still do not. Lol.

We say Merry Christmas! I really fail to see the big controversy. I am not religious. I love science. I believe in the separation of church and state. And you know what else? MERRY F’ING CHRISTMAS to you. :)

Neither my brother or his ex are religious at all. I see these children being raised as I was (at least with regards to this issue). However, if my 13-year-old niece shows up next week with a bible in her hand and wants to talk, that is perfectly ok with me. I would not attempt to turn her from that path. I would be very honest with her about my beliefs but would also be very careful. I would encourage her to speak with many people that she respects on the matter. And if, in the end, she wants to live a life that is full of Christ and his teachings… well then… more power to her!

That is, until she starts defying evolution. No, I am kidding actually. :) People in my family are free to believe as they wish without fear of anything. My father’s sister is devoutly religious.

[drycold]

Thank you for the insite, scrog.

And, MERRY F’ING CHRISTMAS to you too!

[bootlen]

Originally posted by scrogdog

Kindness has its source in God alone.

As for this little ditty... :)

Ok, my Dad is an athiest, my Mom agnostic.

They "accidentally" taught me to be kind to my fellow man? God has never been in my life... so by extension... I cannot be kind?

This concept seems very silly to me, I am sorry. Plenty of people in history have been judged as "kind" without being religious at all.



You think the God of the universe...the omnipotent, onmiscient, omnipresent God does not, cannot have an influence on your parents? On you?

He can and He does.

I am sure your next question would be something like, "Then why don't I know about it?" The answer is because you choose to believe something else. He allows you that because He wants you to believe in Him and love Him out of choice, not out of robotic response.

The choice is yours. He will never deny your choice to not love Him. But there are predetermined consequences per the law of sin and death. Every nonbeliever is subject to that law. Believers are removed from that subjection and come under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. Believers are no longer condemned. God is not sending nonbelievers to hell. He is trying to save everyone from going there. God's laws predate man. Ask satan...if he tells you truthfully, he will agree. He was cast out of Heaven and is sentenced (to be enforced later)to eternal hellfire and damnation because he chose to break God's law.

Sure, there are lots of kind people who are not religious. But kindness does not earn eternal life. Eternal life is a free gift of God for all who would call on the name of Jesus Christ as Savior. There is a no other way to salvation. Jesus has said so. And He cannot lie.

[scrogdog]

But kindness does not earn eternal life.

Precisely why this god would never by MY God. :)

If Mother Theresa isn't Christian... she burns. Interesting.

[Shophound]

Ok, my Dad is an athiest, my Mom agnostic.


Hmm...that sounds familiar. That was the case with my folks as I was growing up. Things change...my dad's no bible thumper but I don't think he regards himself as atheistic, either. Mom believes but no one religion or belief system could ever satisfy her curiosity and understanding.

And I'm cool with all of that.

To address the OP, I have no idea what awaits post mortem, but I'd like to think this life on this globe isn't the whole deal. If it is, that's it and nothing I think or believe changes that. If it isn't, there's nothing in cold hard stone to give me any idea what lies beyond.

So it comes to faith (I left out the word "down" as I do not wish to ascribe a condescending tone to the subject of the sentence).

From my limited time on this globe, I have reached this understanding...faith will always be according to how the individual understands his/her world. Nothing more, nothing less. And nothing wrong. It's just that way.

Of course, the rub lies in how that "faith" affects other people. If someone wants to bow before a pile of rotten bananas and bless it as the creator of the universe, who's to stop him? But if he decides he needs to start chunking those same rotten bananas through the windows of my house...now we have a problem.

I could go on but I need to go eat...I have faith in my hunger pangs. :D

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by bootlen
The choice is yours. He will never deny your choice to not love Him. But there are predetermined consequences per the law of sin and death. Every nonbeliever is subject to that law. Believers are removed from that subjection and come under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. Believers are no longer condemned. God is not sending nonbelievers to hell. He is trying to save everyone from going there.

An exclusive club indeed.

You don't have to believe in god, but if you don't you are condemned, by those who have accepted him.

The club needs you, not desperatly you understand, just a subtle need.

Of course no one is telling you what to believe, but you are condemned if you don't believe.

More peer pressure to join the club. They just want to help you see the error of your ways. Reminds me of a time share sales presentation. By not at least taking a tour of the club, you are excluding yourself from timeshare ownership. Do you know two friends who might be interested in buying the same wonderful timeshare that you just bought?

[Edited by refrigeration mafia on 12-29-2005 at 03:53 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by scrogdog
Isn't it also true that you believe that the gods of other religions are simply different perceptions of the same god? Your pardon if I misunderstood you on that, but I would say that Boot is probably not alone in his opposition to that concept. :)

Whether or not your belief is true is, of course, open to debate. However, in my mind IT SHOULD BE TRUE. Or else god has only revealed "the truth" to a small select group. That would make god "an elitist".

Universal truth should be... well... universal. And easy to grasp. How easy is it to grasp I wonder when we see the topics and discussions about religion occurring right here, right in our face? Beleivers can't even agree, but the rest of us should hold these principles and beliefs as truth? What truth?

For me, I think it all boils down to my lack of ability to accept the intangible. In all things. As I said to Remember in another discussion, my mind just does not work that way. That is not to say that I am better or believers worse... it is simply that religion is very much "not my way".

[Edited by scrogdog on 12-29-2005 at 09:22 AM]

What you state here about my beliefs are accurate. However; I don't "know" any more then anyone else "knows" about God. All we know is from what we learn, and what we learn is either from written/oral stories, prayer and spiritual knowledge, none of which is acceptable evidence in mankinds form of law.

Pretty much I figure that all physical existance was Created to fill a spiritual need of God and we are all merely pawns in God's massive game of good versus evil. Those who exit physical existance with the most good points get to be with God for eternity, those who were more deceived by Satan don't.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Those who exit physical existance with the most good points get to be with God for eternity, those who were more deceived by Satan don't.

With the most good points? Points are something earned. How do you justify that with salvation being a free gift of God?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Those who exit physical existance with the most good points get to be with God for eternity, those who were more deceived by Satan don't.

With the most good points? Points are something earned. How do you justify that with salvation being a free gift of God?

Stop nitpicking my metaphorical statements. You know damned well I don't believe that deeds are for spiritual reward.

While deeds have their rewards in the physical world, deeds can also be an aid for faith in the sense as to why you performed a deed. Mother Theresa was used as an example. As long as it was Mother Theresa's will to please God that drove her to the great deeds she performed, her spirit will indeed be with God in eternity. However, if Mother Theresa performed the deeds she performed for some sort of self satisfaction, then those deeds were worthless to the Lord. Not everyone we would think should be with God in heaven will be with God in heaven. Only God truly knows our hearts.

[rob10]

He's having Santa Post Partem syndrome. :D

[bootlen]

Hey, all I know is what you said. And only God knows our hearts. Just like you said.

And I did not know you don't think we will be rewarded at the Bema for our works.

[braces4impact]

While deeds have their rewards in the physical world, deeds can also be an aid for faith in the sense as to why you performed a deed. Mother Theresa was used as an example. As long as it was Mother Theresa's will to please God that drove her to the great deeds she performed, her spirit will indeed be with God in eternity. However, if Mother Theresa performed the deeds she performed for some sort of self satisfaction, then those deeds were worthless to the Lord. Not everyone we would think should be with God in heaven will be with God in heaven. Only God truly knows our hearts.



You see that your philosophy requires suffering in order for you to be moral?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by braces4impact

While deeds have their rewards in the physical world, deeds can also be an aid for faith in the sense as to why you performed a deed. Mother Theresa was used as an example. As long as it was Mother Theresa's will to please God that drove her to the great deeds she performed, her spirit will indeed be with God in eternity. However, if Mother Theresa performed the deeds she performed for some sort of self satisfaction, then those deeds were worthless to the Lord. Not everyone we would think should be with God in heaven will be with God in heaven. Only God truly knows our hearts.



You see that your philosophy requires suffering in order for you to be moral?




I have no clue as to what you are getting out of that post, but I am pretty certain it is not accurate. Suffering is a part of physical existance. Why we suffer can only be theorized, but it is definitely a major part of mortal existance. I do not believe that physical suffering is an issue in our spiritual existance.

[hvac hero]

Originally posted by bootlen
Believers know. "Apart from the body, together with the Lord."

The body dies, the spirit exists eternally in one of 2 places...with God or apart from God. Existing with God is referred to as "life". Existing apart from God is referred to as "death". If you are with God(as is the case for all believers), you will be in Heaven or in the new earth. If you are apart from God (all non-believers), you will spend all your eternity in hell. But the decision is made before physical death by you as to what happens to you. Each person chooses for himself or herself.

"Today is the day of salvation." Your next breath is not a promise but a privilege.

Right On !!! very well said

[cwog]

hmmm.

[air1]

That’s the ultimate question. What is consciousness? The materialist believe that consciousness exist only in the brain. They believe that all of human experience will be fully explained once we completely understand how the brain works. Others (including myself) believe that the brain is the cognitive prosthesis for the soul.

I believe that the universe is more mysterious than we can imagine and that our consciousness exist on multiple spiritual planes. I also believe in the symmetry of nature. If you look at the way life has evolved from a single cell organism to the self aware conscious manifestation of life we are, then life cannot end at death of the body. We continue to grow, being reincarnated until we reach enlightenment. Once we reach enlightenment we can transcend to a higher plane of consciousness.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by braces4impact

While deeds have their rewards in the physical world, deeds can also be an aid for faith in the sense as to why you performed a deed. Mother Theresa was used as an example. As long as it was Mother Theresa's will to please God that drove her to the great deeds she performed, her spirit will indeed be with God in eternity. However, if Mother Theresa performed the deeds she performed for some sort of self satisfaction, then those deeds were worthless to the Lord. Not everyone we would think should be with God in heaven will be with God in heaven. Only God truly knows our hearts.



You see that your philosophy requires suffering in order for you to be moral?




I have no clue as to what you are getting out of that post, but I am pretty certain it is not accurate. Suffering is a part of physical existance. Why we suffer can only be theorized, but it is definitely a major part of mortal existance. I do not believe that physical suffering is an issue in our spiritual existance.

All I'm was saying is that with a philosophy that makes it so where helping others is the barometer for judging who is ethical you have already stacked the cards to never minimize suffering.

[braces4impact]

That’s the ultimate question. What is consciousness?

Consciousness is the action of a mind percieving that which exist.





The materialist believe that consciousness exist only in the brain.

Though i don't consider myself a materialist where else does it exist?


They believe that all of human experience will be fully explained once we completely understand how the brain works.

We already know what goes n int he brain during different emotional states.



Others (including myself) believe that the brain is the cognitive prosthesis for the soul.

What is a soul? define soul?


I believe that the universe is more mysterious than we can imagine....

yes go read about quantum physics or the theory of relativity.


and that our consciousness exist on multiple spiritual planes. I also believe in the symmetry of nature. If you look at the way life has evolved from a single cell organism to the self aware conscious manifestation of life we are, then life cannot end at death of the body.

Non-sequiter



We continue to grow, being reincarnated until we reach enlightenment. Once we reach enlightenment we can transcend to a higher plane of consciousness.

You are a Buddhist?

[acmanko]

When you die, you are buried six feet under and its over, forgotten in a year or so, or you're incinerated and still forgotten in a year or so.

[skrewt]

Forgotten before the incinerator is cool.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by skrewt
Forgotten before the incinerator is cool.

I knew it. You are a nazi.

[air1]

Originally posted by braces4impact
and that our consciousness exist on multiple spiritual planes. I also believe in the symmetry of nature. If you look at the way life has evolved from a single cell organism to the self aware conscious manifestation of life we are, then life cannot end at death of the body.

Non-sequiter

[/QUOTE]

I should have said Consciusness cannot end at death of the body.

I believe we are spiritual beings. And as in nature, our spirit, soul, subtle conscience mind or whatever you want to call it, grows and continues to evolve.

I’m a Universalist.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by braces4impact

All I'm was saying is that with a philosophy that makes it so where helping others is the barometer for judging who is ethical you have already stacked the cards to never minimize suffering.

OK, I understand what you mean now.

I don't have any influence over the way things are but I do believe that suffering is simply part of the program. Lets face it; whatever the plan is, it certainly has some seemingly bizzare aspects to it.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by skrewt
Forgotten before the incinerator is cool.

Who you talking about?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia

Originally posted by skrewt
Forgotten before the incinerator is cool.

I knew it. You are a nazi.

I don't see anyone else having thought this. I don't believe anyone else would have thought this. Only you thought this and in your own mindset, it does speak volumes about what is on your mind.

[skrewt]

Haben zie klien schwanz?