You PA people need to do something

[cg2]

about this "teacher"

The arrogance of this woman is unbelievable!

http://www.ldnews.com/fastsearchresults/ci_3334327

[Carnak]

Robo is making a bad influence in that state

[cg2]

I actually tend to agree with this "teacher" in theory, but its not her place to decide what is best for first graders to understand about Mr. Claus. Teachers are in loco parentis, in place of the parents when they teach which gives them authority but also responsibility not to make decisions to the detriment of parents wishes. I'm not a suing type of person, but if this was my kid, I would be sorely tempted...

[Diceman]

I knew Robo had another job, plus he can wear his womens clothes out in public. It's a win-win situation.
:D

[cg2]

It's about a sanctimonious teacher taking it upon herself to save the children from Santa Claus. Like I said, I agree with her position, but her responsibility is to teach what she is told to teach, not her beliefs.

[RoBoTeq]

So, the truth is wrong and lying to our children needs to be protected?

I would say that Satan has certainly neared perfection in his creation of this Satanic Season.

People complaining about the truth have their morals really screwed up.

[James 3528]

No one will lie to a child more than a parent will and it has nothing to do with the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. Children grow up and get over the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. What they don't get over are lies from the first persons they first loved and trusted and hurtful words that cut them like a knife.

[billygoat22]

Next time I meet kids of an athiest I'll take it upon myself to tell them they're going to hell.....wonder how that will fly? There's a right time to speak and a time to keep your yap shut.

Sounds like a teacher has less self-control and compassion than the kids, pretty brutal delivery!

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by billygoat22
Next time I meet kids of an athiest I'll take it upon myself to tell them they're going to hell.....wonder how that will fly? There's a right time to speak and a time to keep your yap shut.

Sounds like a teacher has less self-control and compassion than the kids, pretty brutal delivery!

That is your theological belief, not a known fact. It is wrong to instill your personal beliefs on the children of others, especially in a public venue.

What the teacher did was to accurately teach the truths about the material she was assigned to teach. What those who think that teacher did wrong are proposing is that the teacher should not only have taught lies but suppressed her moral values in doing so. It was a very bad situation that the school put that teacher into.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by James 3528
No one will lie to a child more than a parent will and it has nothing to do with the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. Children grow up and get over the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. What they don't get over are lies from the first persons they first loved and trusted and hurtful words that cut them like a knife.

Children get over being lied to by parents?

Where exactly do you think the lying attitude of the first loved and trusted persons come from? We have been manipulated into believing that lying is alright to do...it is not!

This season is supposed to be about Jesus Christ. What does Jesus teach us about lying?

That the devil is behind lying:
John 8:44 NIV "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lie's, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

So, when we tell our children that some fat guy in a red suit gives them presents or that some chocolate egg bearing rabbit represents God we are speaking the language of the devil. That is if you believe Jesus Christ, for whom this season is supposed to be named for.

[billygoat22]

I was subtly hinting that her statements were hurtful to the children. At 6 or 7 there's adult concepts that most kids don't understand.
Its not about being "right", its about someone droppping a bombshell without considering what happens next. I can't image she's so foolish to not expect the kids to cry. The parents are upset because she did this without any compassion.

I wonder if she tells 6 year olds that mother goose isn't real, or Dick and Jane are fictional? Or mickey and donald are made up? Sure, Satan claus and the boogey man don't exist, but kids believe, and this teacher may as well have shot their dog or grandparents in front of them as tell them the truth.

[RoBoTeq]

If the truth is told from the beginning, there is no proper timing needed to right a wrong.

Yes, children should be told that Mother Goose and the rest that were mentioned are fabrications of our imaginations. Yes, we should be responsible enough to give our children truthful information rather the deceiving lies.

Booty feels that without being taught wrong that we will naturally do wrong, there is no documented support for this theory. All tests done on the human nature of children have been done after emotional stimuli has been instilled in these children. The only way to create a properly fair situation analysis would be to raise children in a sterile environment with no emotional imput whatsoever, which of course would be inhumane.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by James 3528
No one will lie to a child more than a parent will and it has nothing to do with the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. Children grow up and get over the Easter Bunny and Santa lie. What they don't get over are lies from the first persons they first loved and trusted and hurtful words that cut them like a knife.

Children get over being lied to by parents?

Where exactly do you think the lying attitude of the first loved and trusted persons come from? We have been manipulated into believing that lying is alright to do...it is not!

This season is supposed to be about Jesus Christ. What does Jesus teach us about lying?

That the devil is behind lying:
John 8:44 NIV "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lie's, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

So, when we tell our children that some fat guy in a red suit gives them presents or that some chocolate egg bearing rabbit represents God we are speaking the language of the devil. That is if you believe Jesus Christ, for whom this season is supposed to be named for.

Get some sleep. You're is a deep orbit. Then read what I wrote again s-l-o-w-l-y

[RoBoTeq]

You are absolutely right James, I did misunderstand what you wrote and I am sorry. What you stated is very true.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
If the truth is told from the beginning, there is no proper timing needed to right a wrong.

Booty feels that without being taught wrong that we will naturally do wrong, there is no documented support for this theory. All tests done on the human nature of children have been done after emotional stimuli has been instilled in these children. The only way to create a properly fair situation analysis would be to raise children in a sterile environment with no emotional imput whatsoever, which of course would be inhumane.

Well, ya just contradicted yerself here, Robo. First we have to tell 'em the truth then there is no proof of a need to teach them right from wrong.

Try my little harmless humane experiment...put 3 kids, 2 years old each, in a room with one "Tickle-Me-Elmo". Report on your findings. (You might want to watch them closely in order to prevent a serious injury.)

[RoBoTeq]

That is the dumbassed test I am referring to boots. By age two a child has already been taught greed or sharing. Your experiment depends on the child. I have seen many children that would rather give the toy to another then to play with it. If you don't, I suggest you expand your circle of friends and relatives.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
That is the dumbassed test I am referring to boots. By age two a child has already been taught greed or sharing. Your experiment depends on the child. I have seen many children that would rather give the toy to another then to play with it. If you don't, I suggest you expand your circle of friends and relatives.

I think you should expand your circle of family and friends if they are teaching kids in their 1st 2 years of life to be greedy.

[RoBoTeq]

You're the one with the violent 2 year olds boots. For crying out loud, you can't just condemn the human race right of the gate. Ya gotta at least let Satan get hold of us first. That is usually done through seemingly innocent actions on the part of parents.

[bootlen]

Been a long time since reading Scripture, huh? Sin is in the blood. "We are conceived in sin".

Not my words. God's.

[cg2]

I just tried to imagine my case in court "Yes your honor I believe I'm entitled to damages because this woman told my child the truth." But can't we agree that the teacher should be aware of the cultural norms that these 6 year olds are involved in and that using her position as a trusted adult to blow their entire worldview without any emotional support or consideration was the wrong thing to do? If you want to change society's conception of the meaning of Christmas, you should go after the adults, not the innocent children/victims.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by bootlen
Been a long time since reading Scripture, huh? Sin is in the blood. "We are conceived in sin".

Not my words. God's.

As you already know, I not only read scripture regularly, I study it. Yes, we are born of and in sin. that in itself gives us the capacity to do evil, it does not force us to be evil.

When you pull this crap you are every bit as closed minded and against God as are the likes of braces and bananaboy.

I will give you the same advice I give them; when you open the Bible, first open your heart and your mind.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by cg2
I just tried to imagine my case in court "Yes your honor I believe I'm entitled to damages because this woman told my child the truth." But can't we agree that the teacher should be aware of the cultural norms that these 6 year olds are involved in and that using her position as a trusted adult to blow their entire worldview without any emotional support or consideration was the wrong thing to do? If you want to change society's conception of the meaning of Christmas, you should go after the adults, not the innocent children/victims.

I cannot disagree with this. When my boys were growing up they were always told the truth about Santa Claus and all the other myths while still being able to participate in the fun. Besides not lying to them, I also instilled the true reason for the season, whether it be Christmas or Easter.

It is really quite amusing that at some point my son told me that I was wrong, that there really was a Santa. He ascertained this because other parents and his teachers told him this. Not much I felt I should do but ride it out and be there for him when he found out they lied to him. I certainly never felt the need to sue the school because a teacher told my son a lie that is now a tradition to tell.

[rob10]

You are a grinch and a scrooge. Bet ya didn't even leave cookies for Santa. Hope Rudolph pooped on your front porch!! :D

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by rob10
You are a grinch and a scrooge. Bet ya didn't even leave cookies for Santa. Hope Rudolph pooped on your front porch!! :D

My boys always had a very good Christmas with no lack of presents. The major difference was that I did not lie to them and I put Jesus Christ at center stage even with having an agnostic wife.

[ice machine undertaker]

Originally posted by rob10
You are a grinch and a scrooge. Bet ya didn't even leave cookies for Santa. Hope Rudolph pooped on your front porch!! :D

http://www.jokesnfun.com/cartoons/498.shtml

[refrigeration mafia]

You mean there is no Santa Claus?

Sniff, sniff BooHoo BooHoooooo ARRRGGGGGG WAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[dhvac]

Well I usually try to stay out of this stuff but my night so far has put me in a mood to reply so here goes

First I have a daughter who will be 8 in January and she does believe in Santa but has not questioned me as to the truth in it so for now it is don’t ask and don’t tell
Now when she does ask me I will tell her the truth but not until then
At my home Jesus is NOT the reason for the season (but that is a different story all together)
I teach my kids good will toward man and that they should put others in front of gifts, so far I think I have done a good job
Here is my problem with the whole thing is that for people to go around saying that it is ok to teach children about god and Jesus is ok but that it is not ok to teach about Santa is absurd as far as I am concerned I have seen very little proof as to what is written in the bible about as much as there is to “the Santa Claus myth”

As far as the teacher goes she should have been fired on the spot period… although it would be tough to sue and I don’t think it is warranted she should never be allowed to interfere with another family’s traditions and beliefs

now before anyone decides it is ok to try to force feed me their religious beliefs if I want a sermon I will go to church (with my children who attend with my in laws) because although I personally don’t believe as a lot of people here do I also think that my children should have the benefit of learning about religion just the same as I had the benefit when I was a child

just my 2 cents for what it is worth

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
You mean there is no Santa Claus?

Sniff, sniff BooHoo BooHoooooo ARRRGGGGGG WAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Why do I believe this is for real?

[RoBoTeq]

dhvac, I do respect your personal views. I would like to point out though that Santa Claus is a known myth whereas God is a perceived reality with much ancient writings to support His existance.

This is however one of the more impactful events in my childhood. When I was informed that there was no Santa, Easter Bunny or tooth fairy, I then turned against God.

It took me years of attempting to prove the Bible is a book of myths to allow me to come to the understanding that there most certainly is something spiritual that the Bible does tell us about.

I still disagree that a teacher should be reprimanded for telling the truth about the subject of an assignment that she was given to teach. I don't see any argument for supporting that this teacher perpetuate a known lie.

[dhvac]

the news article i read said that she was supposed to READ a poem

didnt see in the story where she was supposed to interject her views or turn music class into history class
jmo

[RoBoTeq]

By reading that particular story, she would be lying to the children. It was a bad call on the part of the school to put someone in a position of having to tell children something that they know is not true.

Children of that age do not understand literary license. Would it have been ok to have read them the Pit and the Pendulum? It's not really real, it's just a story.

Story or not, The Pit and the Pendulum would be scary without an accounting that it was not real just as the lies told in that poem would be perceived as the truth if not for that teachers defining that it was just a mythical story.

[cg2]

Santa's been good to us ;)

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by cg2
Santa's been good to us ;)


Well I hate to break it to you, but there is no Santa.

Just don't tell the kids, they still believe in him.

[RoBoTeq]

Having mafiablunt advise you to lie to your children should be enough of a reason to think long and hard about that decision.

[billygoat22]

I have to agree with Robo that the focus taught children about this day should be Christ. It is a day arbitrarily chosen to commemorate His birth, not sacred. But there's nothing inherently wrong with giving gifts,either, but you know people can screw anything up.

In this case she's wrong, wrong, wrong (timing wise).Some people think its OK to be a jerk as long as you're telling the truth. Doesn't matter that dropping a bombshell at the wrong time would do more harm than the lie, as long as you're honest.

To paraphrase something I read in the Bible- Paul said you can be doctrinely correct, do all things well, but if you have not charity, it don't amout to spit.

[RoBoTeq]

I agree that truth can and does at times hurt. Is it better for these children to continue being lied to or have a revolutionary moment of truth slap them upside the head?

Learning that you have been lied to is always painful. Most times by the time a parent gets around to telling their children the truth about Santa Claus, they have already had there feelings hurt by hearing it from some other source. So when the parent decides to fess up about their lie, the child shrugs it off because that child has already learned to distrust that parent.

This should not be a discussion about when it is proper to tell the truth but rather one that promotes not telling lies in the first place. The teacher did not do the harm with the truth, it is the lie that caused the harm here.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I agree that truth can and does at times hurt. Is it better for these children to continue being lied to or have a revolutionary moment of truth slap them upside the head?

Learning that you have been lied to is always painful. Most times by the time a parent gets around to telling their children the truth about Santa Claus, they have already had there feelings hurt by hearing it from some other source. So when the parent decides to fess up about their lie, the child shrugs it off because that child has already learned to distrust that parent.

This should not be a discussion about when it is proper to tell the truth but rather one that promotes not telling lies in the first place. The teacher did not do the harm with the truth, it is the lie that caused the harm here.

So the object is to make the children aware of the fact that you lied to them, before they find out from the state that you (the parent) are not to be trusted.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I agree that truth can and does at times hurt. Is it better for these children to continue being lied to or have a revolutionary moment of truth slap them upside the head?

Learning that you have been lied to is always painful. Most times by the time a parent gets around to telling their children the truth about Santa Claus, they have already had there feelings hurt by hearing it from some other source. So when the parent decides to fess up about their lie, the child shrugs it off because that child has already learned to distrust that parent.

This should not be a discussion about when it is proper to tell the truth but rather one that promotes not telling lies in the first place. The teacher did not do the harm with the truth, it is the lie that caused the harm here.

So the object is to make the children aware of the fact that you lied to them, before they find out from the state that you (the parent) are not to be trusted.

Well, the object is to stop lying to our children. However, if we have already done so then it is best to fess up to our lies as soon as possible.

[Collin]

Every so often I will tell my daughter a tall tale. She looks at me then says "for real?", and I might fess up, or, I might say "Yea, really!".
Then my girl might say "promise....?"
and without fail I will tell the truth.
I am accomplishing two things.
First, don't believe every thing you hear.
Second, when asked to promise, you must be truthful and honest.

I have never promised her there is a Santa Claus.;)

[RoBoTeq]

I had a similar safeguard with my boys when they were growing up. I am actually quite famous in my household for making up stories. If my boys got suspicious of any of my stories they always knew that just asking me if the story was true would result in my telling them if it was or not.

To this day if someone says they don't know if they can believe me, any of my boys will tell them; "If you want to know if he's telling the truth; ask him. He can't lie when asked if he's telling the truth."

In reality, I certainly can lie and I have done so in extreme circumstances. I always feel very lowly of myself if I feel I have to lie, so that social tool is always left as a last resort to keep me out of jail or to keep someone from hurting themselves.

[Edited by RoBoTeq on 12-27-2005 at 01:27 AM]