Armstrong Central Air

[htrk1]

Hi Guys,
I was hoping someone could steer me in the right direction. A reputable installer installed a replacement loft a/c unit in my home. My home calls for 2.5 tons of cooling. They installed a 13ACD-030 outdoor unit (r22 says 2.5ton on the side). They had a lot of problems getting a coil that day to match and ended up bringing an EM1P23BG and installed it with an "expansion valve". My reading says this is a 2 ton coil. This doesn't sound right to me.......

[timebuilder]

I don't have Armstrong info, but I can tell you that the expansion valve gives the best results in any AC system. The alternative method is a fixed orifice that cannot respond to changes in load.

An Armstrong guy should be along any minute....

[htrk1]

Thanks, I look forward to getting some info. It just doesn't seem right to install a 2.5 ton compressor with a 2 ton evap coil. Especially when I read that they make a 2.5 ton coil for his unit. I'm just not sure if this "expansion valve" makes up for the smaller coil.

[timebuilder]

Thanks, I look forward to getting some info. It just doesn't seem right to install a 2.5 ton compressor with a 2 ton evap coil. Especially when I read that they make a 2.5 ton coil for his unit. I'm just not sure if this "expansion valve" makes up for the smaller coil.

Expansion valves are not intended to "make up" for anything. They are designed to regulate the superheat of the vapor leaving the evaporator. They are the best way to meter refrigerant into a typical residential system.

[htrk1]

Thanks, I'm anxious to see what everyone's opinion on a 2.5 ton compressor and a 2 ton Evap coil is.....Especially when my home calls for 2.5 tons of cooling.

[BaldLoonie]

I would not find that coil appropriate for a 2.5 ton outdoor unit.

[Hunter844]

For what it's worth the ARI #4560774 is a match system. When we were Lennox dealers for 10 minutes I noticed they had some odd matchups. Armstrong probably isn't much different.

[htrk1]

For what it's worth the ARI #4560774 is a match system. When we were Lennox dealers for 10 minutes I noticed they had some odd matchups. Armstrong probably isn't much different.

Thanks, I sent an email to Allied air through their website. I called but the recording said they were at lunch, LOL! (11:30 to 1pm EST)....I'm hoping they can clarify it for me.

[Hunter844]

Thanks, I sent an email to Allied air through their website. I called but the recording said they were at lunch, LOL! (11:30 to 1pm EST)....I'm hoping they can clarify it for me.

My mistake...that's not a match system. The EM1P24A would have been a match.

[MrParts]

I just spoke with an Allied Air tech and this match-up is decidedly a good match. Your coil falls with in the required 154 to 273 cui required coil volume.

[htrk1]

I just spoke with an Allied Air tech and this match-up is decidedly a good match. Your coil falls with in the required 154 to 273 cui required coil volume.

Thanks you very much! I was just concerned that I would have reduced cooling capacity on very hot days. The house was spec'd for 2.5 tons of cooling.

[second opinion]

Thanks you very much! I was just concerned that I would have reduced cooling capacity on very hot days. The house was spec'd for 2.5 tons of cooling.

I would still ask the contractor for performance data on that match.

Armstrongs website has that coil listed as a 1.5 -2 ton.
It could be a listing error but I would still ask.

[htrk1]

I would still ask the contractor for performance data on that match.

Armstrongs website has that coil listed as a 1.5 -2 ton.
It could be a listing error but I would still ask.

I have a call into the installer to check on it....the listing you quoted is exactly what started me down this road when I was checking up on things. I just don't understand ,on a new install, why you wouldn't match ton ratings of the indoor coil and the compressor. I understand when you are just replacing one or the other you need to make work with what's available....But I don't get how combining the two units I have (2ton and 2.5ton) affects the SEER rating and cooling capacity. It's probably no big deal, but no one from the manufacture or the installer has been able to explain that to me.

[BaldLoonie]

I found the 24 matching too. But if tech support says the 23 is OK too and it has the appropriate TXV on it, all the better.

[htrk1]

I found the 24 matching too. But if tech support says the 23 is OK too and it has the appropriate TXV on it, all the better.

The original install didn't call for a TXV valve. When the installer went (for the 3rd time) to get the correct coil unit, the dealer gave him the TXV valve to install with the 23 coil. From an outsider, I assumed that the TXV valve made up for the fact that the coil was only rated at 2ton vs 2.5ton....After reading above, I see that the expansion valve doesn't "make up" for anything, but I am glad they installed it. The more you guys respond, the better I'm feeling about the whole thing. I searched the forum before posting and saw posts about premature compressor failure due to using a compressor that was oversized for the indoor coil.

[BaldLoonie]

The size numbers on the indoor coil don't always mean anything. Some have gone to not showing the size , just having a number on their evaps so people aren't worried about it. For example, a super efficient Trane coil might be an 004. That way nobody worries about putting it on a certain size outdoor unit.

If the 024 has the right internal space to hold the right amount of refrigerant for a 030 condenser, you are good to go.

TXVs make the system slightly more efficient and work better in lighter load situations.

[htrk1]

Well interesting twist, I spoke to Allied Air. They stated that by law my installer should not have replaced my system with an r22 system. They are allowed to replace the outdoor or the indoor unit as a repair but not both. Secondly, the 23 coil is not the match for the 13ACD-030. The appropriate coil is the 24 unit. I guess I'm wondering where to go from here. I have a service contract with this large company in the area that states if they can't fix my A/C they would replace it at no charge. They found a leak in my indoor coil and said it made more sense just to replace the system (no charge to me) due to the age. The salesman came out and said the new system would be 410a. He said I would need to provide a new raceway up the side of the house for the new 410 line set. I went and purchased the appropriate color for the house. When the installer arrived they brought the r22 unit and said they didn't want to mess up the side of my house so they were going to re-use my line set and install the R22 system. At this point, I think I need to bring it to their attention and at least demand the correct coil be installed. Mind you this is very large energy company doing this install in my area.

[MrParts]

Often when the exact metering pin size cannot be determined we will recomend a txv with a matching "ton" rating be used in its place. It also is no longer possible just to look at the model number of the coil and determine what its actual btu capacity is due to the wide variation of match ups and the fact that the ADP coils like the one you have is used with r-410a also, which is where its listed rating would be. r-410 requires larger coil volumes and a 2-ton coil could easily handle up to 3 ton with an r-22 system. It used to be that contractors would use the txv to cover a multitude of sins but today that is nolonger the case. With training we have tried to educate better and some application the metering pin can be a better choice. but with your match up I would reccomend the txv.

[htrk1]

Often when the exact metering pin size cannot be determined we will recomend a txv with a matching "ton" rating be used in its place. It also is no longer possible just to look at the model number of the coil and determine what its actual btu capacity is due to the wide variation of match ups and the fact that the ADP coils like the one you have is used with r-410a also, which is where its listed rating would be. r-410 requires larger coil volumes and a 2-ton coil could easily handle up to 3 ton with an r-22 system. It used to be that contractors would use the txv to cover a multitude of sins but today that is nolonger the case. With training we have tried to educate better and some application the metering pin can be a better choice. but with your match up I would reccomend the txv.

Thanks MrParts....I have since confirmed by talking to the actual engineers at Allied that the 23 coil is ok to to use and actually has a larger volume than the 24. He confirmed what you said about the part numbers. This also explains why the sticker on the out door unit lists the actual tonnage and the indoor coil unit did not. Thanks for all you help guys......

[timebuilder]

First:

It is illegal for a supply house to sell a complete R22 installation supplied by a manufacturer to a contractor. Simply put, complete R22 systems are not offered by manufacturers today.

It is NOT illegal for a dry R22 unit and a replacement coil to be installed. So, Allied is off the mark on that one. Both aspects are being installed as replacement parts. The coil is being replaced on an existing air handler, yes? So, your system is being repaired if that air handler is intact. That's my informed take on it. I am not an attorney or a representative of the EPA. YMMV.

Now, you can have a conversation about what aspects of this trouble you, but I would not go in with guns a-blazin based on some idea of wrongful actions. I'm not sure that will get you anywhere.

You might want to consider the business model of those with whom you have dealings, and whether you know people who would recommend them. You will usually get better service and more satisfaction if you get a good referral, rather than just going with "big company."

[htrk1]

No completely new air handler was installed. They called me today. They said they have to remove the r22 system and install a 410 by law. So we will see how it goes.

[timebuilder]

I'm sorry. WHO called you today?

Is the installing company volunteering to replace your R22 system?

If someone is saying "by law" to you, get them to refer you to the statute. That will be a federal CFR number they are using as the basis for this action.

[htrk1]

The installer called me and said they need to replace it "by law" They didnt quote a particular statute. They basically said it was missed at so many levels. I had 2 different site evals by the same company. To think this all started with me making sure the coil matched. I was very friendly in my dealings and they were very apologetic. I wanted to leave r22 system in because it was such a hassle the first time around, but they insisted. I did ask for a free upgradr for my trouble lol! We will see where that gets me.

[timebuilder]

The installer called me and said they need to replace it "by law" They didnt quote a particular statute. They basically said it was missed at so many levels. I had 2 different site evals by the same company. To think this all started with me making sure the coil matched. I was very friendly in my dealings and they were very apologetic. I wanted to leave r22 system in because it was such a hassle the first time around, but they insisted. I did ask for a free upgradr for my trouble lol! We will see where that gets me.

Well, if you get a benefit from an uninformed person, that's still a benefit to you. We'll see.

What kind of an upgrade did you ask for?

[htrk1]

My contract only allowed for a 13 seer system to be installed at no charge. I ask them for a minimum of a 16 seer. Not sure if that is a realistic thing to ask for? Its gonna be an Armstrong no matter what.