Oh please help me with my HVAC quotes

[merriebeth]

I promise not to rhyme any more but some help would be a score. If we find your help valuable enough in our decision, I may even send you a gift card for beer. :cheers:
We are in the process of getting bids :callpro: for a new HVAC system. About us: 3000 sq ft 2-story house in southern Maryland. We currently have a propane furnace with AC unit. No heat pump. We are considering a hybrid but also wondering if we should just go heat pump. Our crystal ball is broke :gah: so we are not sure how long we will be here. We do have a full gas tank with about Removed Pricing worth of propane in it :nopity: - but we won't really factor that in our decision. The only other thing on gas is our oven.

Here are our quotes:

Quote 1:

Heat Pump: Carrier 25HNB648
Furnace: Carrier M-58MVC120-20
Coil: Carrier CNPV6124A

I can't quote the ton, seer or AFUE or btus (assume the 120 is just that). He talked all this stuff and had it in his notes but didn�t put it in the quote. I don't think he is hiding anything just didn't put it on there. I'm not feelin all that well so my google skills aren't producing. :confused:

Included in this quote: Complete ToraVac Source Removal System (is this duct cleaning? If so, it is not included and extra
10 year parts, 2 year labor, 10 year compressor, 20 year heat exchanger warranty

Before rebates, claiming $XXX fed tax credit, $XXXX Carrier rebate, $XXX SMECO (local electric co-op) rebate

Quote 2:

Heat Pump: Carrier 2HBC360W003 2 speed 4.5 � 5 ton
Furnace: Carrier 58MVC120-20 95% modulating gas valve variable speed fan 120,000 btu
Coil: Carrier CNPV6024ATA
Seer: 15

Warranty indicates 10 year limited parts warranty through Carrier
Company indicates repair or replace free of labor charge any parts on the new system found to be defective for a period of 2 years.

Claiming $XXX tax credit, $XXX Carrier rebate, $XXX SMECO rebate

Quote 3 (same company as #2)

Heat Pump: Carrier 2HBC360W003
Coil: Carrier CNPV6024ATA

no rebates

Quote 4

Install New 16 Seer Carrier Comfort Series Air Conditioner + Coil with new 90% 120,000 btu gas furnace

Claiming $XXX fed, $XXX SMECO rebates

This guy also pushed a Heil hybrid which we are not entertaining

I'm not sure why the difference in tax credits and rebates from SMECO but might be based on efficiency.

First off which of these units seem appropriate for our situation or are their other options we should be considering. Any insight on the quotes in any shape or form is appreciated. Prices of #1 and #2 were comparable.

From,
Merrie Beth in somd :lilhelp:

[tipsrfine]

Please hit that little "edit" button under your post and remove all prices. Prices are not allowed on this forum. You may want to read the rules before further posting. Somebody will be along soon to answer your questions.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

what kind of labor warranty does each company give? where are the units going to be installed in a crawl space or attic or mechanical closet these all have bearing on the longevity of the unit as a whole...

[merriebeth]

Please hit that little "edit" button under your post and remove all prices. Prices are not allowed on this forum. You may want to read the rules before further posting. Somebody will be along soon to answer your questions.

Whooooops, sorry, read them the other day but failed to pay attention today. Edited.

[merriebeth]

what kind of labor warranty does each company give? where are the units going to be installed in a crawl space or attic or mechanical closet these all have bearing on the longevity of the unit as a whole...

Quote 1: 2 years labor; he did also have this:
If the compressor in your ac fails once in the first 5 years install a new outside unit; if the heat exchanger in your furnace fails in first 10 years we will install a new furnace; depending on the system guarantee savings of 10-35% will refund double the difference of your savings not realized during the first year; if your system breaks down in the first year leaving you without heating or cooling and they fail same day repair we receive $500, same if they don't have it operating on the day promised.

Quote 2 doesn't seem to indicate in writing - thanks for the heads up, we'll want to see this.

This will be downstairs in a mechanical closet just next to outdoor wall which is where the compressor is.

Appreciate your time and insight!

[HVACTechNC]

Maybe this is just me, but a 120K furnace raises my eyebrows a bit... I'm not sure based on what I read that you need that much junk in your trunk.

[heaterman]

Just so you are comparing apples to apples, Heil premium equipment is the same as Carrier.

[dandyme]

did any of them perform a manual J on this structure?

or did i miss it in the post?

[arc8]

120,000 furnace; that seems high considering you are in Maryland. For example, up here a 60,000 can be enough for a 3000sq ft new house and maybe a 80,000 for a 50 year old house!! It seem very Questionable?
Just don't let them oversize, it really does matter.
And I haven't even mentioned the cooling load yet.

[NCHeat]

equipment seems oversized to me too. I would ask your contractors to do a load calc. to be sure you get properly sized equipment

[merriebeth]

We have asked several folks regarding the size of the unit and feel confident that 5 ton is needed based on the layout and size of the house - and in order to get a match the 120btu Carrier unit is necessary.

Can I throw one more in the mix?

Amana 18 seer Heat Pump ASZ18 with AMV 95 (might be 96) - 115 btu. Amana 5 ton cooling coil.

This unit is coming in quite a bit lower than the others, so what gives? Is Amana compromising on quality?

Thanks again for all the input

[tigerdunes]

Merribeth

I prefer the Carrier over the Amana.

And with the Carrier I would not go over the MVC 100 K model furnace without some supporting document like a Man J load calc.

IMO

[chillpup71]

1

[wahoo]

Amana has the best heat exchanger and the best warranties on the market. Nobody even comes close. They spend far less on marketing also, which shows in their pricing. But you might turn that "brand" thing into a full out opinion thing. Just check the warranties and you'll see I'm right. Lifetime complete furnace replacement along with lifetime outside unit replacment if heat exchanger or compressor ever fail to original owner. Along with a 10 yr. parts warranty and make sure and get the factory labor (10yr.) warranty included. I'd insist this type of labor warranty be included on any brand, if not offerred then find a brand who does. Amana is a premium brand, with built in diagnostics. But you don't spend part of your purchase price on a big marketing campaign!! If memory serves me, they are owned by the 2nd largest supplier of heating and cooling units in the US (GMC).:.02:

[mike_home]

We have asked several folks regarding the size of the unit and feel confident that 5 ton is needed based on the layout and size of the house - and in order to get a match the 120btu Carrier unit is necessary.



The Carrier Infinity 58MVC 80K and 100K BTU furnance are approved matches for the 5 ton heat pump you are considering. You should discuss with your contractor as to why he is recommending using a 120K BTU furnace.

[jpsmith1cm]

The Carrier Infinity 58MVC 80K and 100K BTU furnance are approved matches for the 5 ton heat pump you are considering. You should discuss with your contractor as to why he is recommending using a 120K BTU furnace.

mike_home,

You should apply for Professional Membership if you are in the trade.

[Norm01]

Let me just share my story with you. My house had a 125kBtu furnace and a 3.5T HP. After a lot of research on this site I paid for an independent manual-J. Results came back at 60KBtu and 2T HP.

[Redjeepjamie]

Id go with qoute #1 based on the info provided and assuming they did a load calc. It's a4 ton by the way. The carrier is in my opinion by far a better product than the Heil and I wont put my companies name on the Amana product . Have you considered geothermal? With the tax credit 30% uncapped and the other utility savings your are probably looking at similar cost by the time all the rebates factored in. Go to WaterFurmace's website and look for a Geopro dealer it's at least worth getting a quote for comparison. That being said the 120 is pretty doggon big, you are a little protected from overdosing because the Infinty control system will not go to high stage gas unless it can't keep up on the lower stage. It is very important to make sure the ductwork is properly sized a 120 furnace has to bring return in from both sides or the bottom. A lot of contractors miss this but it is a very big deal. I don't care of the return drop is 20x24 it still goes in the side of the furnace at a 16x25 bottleneck. The Carrier/Bryant system is the only true hybrid on the market. It will run as a heat pump unless the heat pump can't keep up. In my area , Kentucky, I have seen the Carrier heat pump keeping up down into the single digits only pulling gas on occasionally and even then it's only low stage gas. Most other brands lock off the heat pump at a set temp like 35. That will give you about 40% savings over the furnace but the Hybrid can be more like 80% depending on how well insulated your house is.also most 95% furnaces have a lifetime warranty to the original owner on the heat exchanger.
Good luck.

[Redjeepjamie]

Sorry about the spelling and grammar damn IPad auto correct !

[wahoo]

"Only true hybrid furnace on the market"? You are kidding right? And when did Carrier start replacing the entire furnace if heat exchanger failed during the lifetime of the original owner. Looks like they only do as most do, and give you a heat exchanger in a box. I'd much prefer that "replacement" heat exchanger also come with a complete new furnace. :cheers:

[beenthere]

The Carrier/Bryant system is the only true hybrid on the market.

Ok, I'll bite. What makes you think that they are the only "true hybirds". I have York Affinities in, that the heat pump heats the house down to 20 degrees outdoor temp.

[catmanacman]

I would go to a heat pump with electric back up if you can get a large enough power circuit to the air handler for the heat strip . one draw back is you can run a gas furnace on generator if you have a power outage . propane is getting too expensive to heat with .

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

We have asked several folks regarding the size of the unit and feel confident that 5 ton is needed based on the layout and size of the house - and in order to get a match the 120btu Carrier unit is necessary.

Can I throw one more in the mix?

Amana 18 seer Heat Pump ASZ18 with AMV 95 (might be 96) - 115 btu. Amana 5 ton cooling coil.

This unit is coming in quite a bit lower than the others, so what gives? Is Amana compromising on quality?

Thanks again for all the input

i have the goodman dual fuel kit in my house it has worked fine for a few years now. just to give you a heads up goodman is amanas sister line , think Gmc / Chevrolet . any way Amana is good equipment but needs to be installed correctly and after that just annual tune-ups... coil cleaning and such.

also i would recommend a UV light somewhere near the coil ( just ask your dealer) . i have a UV light in my home as well as a humidity controlling t-stat and we love it..... although i am partial to Goodman / Amana any of the brands you mentioned will be fine , just see to it that the installers are competent. and the company backs their written promises.
sorry i shouldn't use the word promise maybe their guarantee and customer satisfaction. if your in no hurry just ask around ... home owners associations, friends , family , even internet correspondence in your area. just
ask the company for their references also. if there is any baddies lurking you'll find out , im sure of it! ...

[Redjeepjamie]

Ok let's see if you can keep up. Dual fuel uses a heatpump down to a set temperature and then automatically switches to it's gas backup, you have two heat sources but they don't work together it's either one or the other based on outdoor temperature . A hybrid system has both gas and electric and can use whichever one is most efficient , regardless of outdoor temp, it's like dual fuel only smarter. Ive had hybrid systems use gas less than 10% of the season, I know this because the Infinity system tracks run time by the hour and breaks it down by stage and heat source.
Me being a jerk aside I like the York affinity system and I know Johnson has some great control options, but I've yet to see anything on the market that competes with the Infinity/Evolution system.
As far as the free furnace if the heat exchanger fails, I'd rather just have a good furnace the first time rather than a free replacement. With today's condensing furnaces if the heat exchanger fails it's most likely a bad install or in an area with contaminates, dryer softener sheets are evil to a condensing furnace.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

The Carrier Infinity 58MVC 80K and 100K BTU furnance are approved matches for the 5 ton heat pump you are considering. You should discuss with your contractor as to why he is recommending using a 120K BTU furnace.

he could know something you have no access to like maybe hardly any insulation, big windows , one wall made of glass, a 20' x 20' sun-room, a foyer with 20' vaulted ceilings ,,,, the possibility's go on and on ............
:gah:
i mean how do you even know that 5-tons of cooling is OK? ...
:whistle:

just asking..........:whistle:

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

Id go with qoute #1 based on the info provided and assuming they did a load calc. It's a4 ton by the way. The carrier is in my opinion by far a better product than the Heil and I wont put my companies name on the Amana product . Have you considered geothermal? With the tax credit 30% uncapped and the other utility savings your are probably looking at similar cost by the time all the rebates factored in. Go to WaterFurmace's website and look for a Geopro dealer it's at least worth getting a quote for comparison. That being said the 120 is pretty doggon big, you are a little protected from overdosing because the Infinty control system will not go to high stage gas unless it can't keep up on the lower stage. It is very important to make sure the ductwork is properly sized a 120 furnace has to bring return in from both sides or the bottom. A lot of contractors miss this but it is a very big deal. I don't care of the return drop is 20x24 it still goes in the side of the furnace at a 16x25 bottleneck. The Carrier/Bryant system is the only true hybrid on the market. It will run as a heat pump unless the heat pump can't keep up. In my area , Kentucky, I have seen the Carrier heat pump keeping up down into the single digits only pulling gas on occasionally and even then it's only low stage gas. Most other brands lock off the heat pump at a set temp like 35. That will give you about 40% savings over the furnace but the Hybrid can be more like 80% depending on how well insulated your house is.also most 95% furnaces have a lifetime warranty to the original owner on the heat exchanger.
Good luck.

ive got a t-stat with OD sensor that can go from 5*f - 48* f .... hum WTH..? :.02:

[beenthere]

Ok let's see if you can keep up. Dual fuel uses a heatpump down to a set temperature and then automatically switches to it's gas backup, you have two heat sources but they don't work together it's either one or the other based on outdoor temperature . A hybrid system has both gas and electric and can use whichever one is most efficient , regardless of outdoor temp, it's like dual fuel only smarter. Ive had hybrid systems use gas less than 10% of the season, I know this because the Infinity system tracks run time by the hour and breaks it down by stage and heat source.
Me being a jerk aside I like the York affinity system and I know Johnson has some great control options, but I've yet to see anything on the market that competes with the Infinity/Evolution system.
As far as the free furnace if the heat exchanger fails, I'd rather just have a good furnace the first time rather than a free replacement. With today's condensing furnaces if the heat exchanger fails it's most likely a bad install or in an area with contaminates, dryer softener sheets are evil to a condensing furnace.

I can set the stat to lock out the heat pump at 0, and only use the gas if the heat pump isn't keeping up. Since around here, the heat pump will be more efficient down to around -20.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

I can set the stat to lock out the heat pump at 0, and only use the gas if the heat pump isn't keeping up. Since around here, the heat pump will be more efficient down to around -20.

oh now now beenthere its 0* f out side there isnt anymore heat left in the universe at that temp......:grin2::angel: kidding but ive heard it all!

[beenthere]

oh now now beenthere its 0* f out side there isnt anymore heat left in the universe at that temp......:grin2::angel: kidding but ive heard it all!



I didn't say absolute zero. :D

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

I didn't say absolute zero. :D

that im sure of , youre wayyyyyyyyy smarter than me , and even i know its just a joke!

[Redjeepjamie]

Really? Right out of the box with no special wiring you can go to 5 degrees with your standard HP? The beauty of the Infinity system is how advanced it is compared to how easy it is to install. We all know installation is everything in HVAC and having advanced features with no special equipment is very valuable.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

i too install carrier , i however have a goodman in MY home , so enough said!

special wires no. 18 /10 yes .

[Redjeepjamie]

So your saying you are under paid?

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

So your saying you are under paid?

yes sir . if thats what you got from all this then so be it .................


by the way my chevys way better than your XXXXXX!

[Redjeepjamie]

I could use a good tech in KY. We have the best weather, the prettiest women, and a really bad HVAC industry so job security is a given. Want to re locate?

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

I could use a good tech in KY. We have the best weather, the prettiest women, and a really bad HVAC industry so job security is a given. Want to re locate?

um sure .......... well no.......um not sure we'd get along.............:grin2:

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

i have successfully hijacked a thread so....... mods please feel free to remove my usless rantings starting with post # 32 ... thanks.

[beenthere]

Really? Right out of the box with no special wiring you can go to 5 degrees with your standard HP?

Yep. York Affinity.

[wahoo]

Jeremy, it's great that you have built up such a loyalty to a certain "brand"; however let me kinda burst your bubble. The "company" that you seem to be so loyal to could care less about you, only the number of boxes you manage to sell for them. Kinda reminds me of a younger dealer I conversed with at a parts shop a few years ago. I simply asked how things were going and he said really slow (we were and have been for years busy), and I asked what type of units he was selling. He replied that he was only bidding a certain high efficiency system that he felt was a superior system to all others. I listened for a few minutes and told him "you need to be selling what the customers can and will buy, and if they can't buy what you are selling, then you need to change or widen your offering". He has been out of business for a number of years now, and was a competetent technician/owner however he "fell in love" with the hype from a very expensive and presumably "elite" type of system. Loyalty is fine, however don't think for a minute it will be reciprocated from the "company" selling you the equipment!! I don't include the salespeople in this statement however because a lot of the field salespeople we deal with are the same people however they have changed companies themselves over the years!!! Equipment is equipment and the installing contractor makes the difference. As to your statement about heat exchangers, it's basically false and I can only assume that it's based on "company" sales biase and ignorance. IMO anyway.:.02:

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

Jeremy, it's great that you have built up such a loyalty to a certain "brand"; however let me kinda burst your bubble. The "company" that you seem to be so loyal to could care less about you, only the number of boxes you manage to sell for them. Kinda reminds me of a younger dealer I conversed with at a parts shop a few years ago. I simply asked how things were going and he said really slow (we were and have been for years busy), and I asked what type of units he was selling. He replied that he was only bidding a certain high efficiency system that he felt was a superior system to all others. I listened for a few minutes and told him "you need to be selling what the customers can and will buy, and if they can't buy what you are selling, then you need to change or widen your offering". He has been out of business for a number of years now, and was a competetent technician/owner however he "fell in love" with the hype from a very expensive and presumably "elite" type of system. Loyalty is fine, however don't think for a minute it will be reciprocated from the "company" selling you the equipment!! I don't include the salespeople in this statement however because a lot of the field salespeople we deal with are the same people however they have changed companies themselves over the years!!! Equipment is equipment and the installing contractor makes the difference. As to your statement about heat exchangers, it's basically false and I can only assume that it's based on "company" sales biase and ignorance. IMO anyway.:.02:



are you picking on carrier again? .........:angel:


its okay the more i sell the more price breaks i get WOOP WOOP !

yea, baby!

oh and ive NEVER let me repeat NEVER had trouble getting tech or customer support on the phone................ what trane doesnt have a support tech ,,,, heil either? well now that sucks............


P.S. WHAT STATEMENT ABOUT HX's ?

dude please hurry up and reply ........... i install goodman and carrier and im not sure WHAT you are talking about.......... could you clarify why your AMANA ... is ... better... than my GOODMAN ... and CARRIER .... UNITS ...... im really mis understanding you and being vague and talking in circles is going to get us nowhere........

[wahoo]

Call Amana and find out. Dude

[tigerdunes]

Merribeth

Based on location/winter climate, why not a full high eff modulating furnace like York/Luxaire?

IMO