China-mart

[royc]

A Year Without
'Made In China'



By Sara Bongiorni
The Christian Science Monitor
12-21-5





BATON ROUGE, LA. - Last year, two days after Christmas, we kicked China out of the house. Not the country obviously, but bits of plastic, metal, and wood stamped with the words "Made in China." We kept what we already had, but stopped bringing any more in.

The banishment was no fault of China's. It had coated our lives with a cheerful veneer of toys, gadgets, and $10 children's shoes. Sometimes I worried about jobs sent overseas or nasty reports about human rights abuses, but price trumped virtue at our house. We couldn't resist what China was selling.

But on that dark Monday last year, a creeping unease washed over me as I sat on the sofa and surveyed the gloomy wreckage of the holiday. It wasn't until then that I noticed an irrefutable fact: China was taking over the place.

It stared back at me from the empty screen of the television. I spied it in the pile of tennis shoes by the door. It glowed in the lights on the Christmas tree and watched me in the eyes of a doll splayed on the floor. I slipped off the couch and did a quick inventory, sorting gifts into two stacks: China and non-China. The count came to China, 25, the world, 14. Christmas, I realized, had become a holiday made by the Chinese. Suddenly I'd had enough. I wanted China out.

Through tricks and persuasion I got my husband on board, and on Jan. 1 we launched a yearlong household embargo on Chinese imports. The idea wasn't to punish China, which would never feel the pinprick of our protest. And we didn't fool ourselves into thinking we'd bring back a single job to unplugged company towns in Ohio and Georgia. We pushed China out of our lives because we wanted to measure how far it had pushed in. We wanted to know what it would take in time, money, and aggravation to kick our China habit.

We hit the first rut in the road when I discovered our son's toes pressing against the ends of his tennis shoes. I wore myself out hunting for new ones. After two weeks I broke down and spent $60 on sneakers from Italy. I felt sick over the money; it seemed decadent for a pair of children's shoes. I got used to the feeling. Weeks later I shelled out $60 for Texas-made shoes for our toddler daughter.

We got hung up on lots of little things. I drove to half a dozen grocery stores in search of candles for my husband's birthday cake, eventually settling on a box of dusty leftovers I found in the kitchen. The junk drawer has been stuck shut since January. My husband found the part to fix it at Home Depot but left it on the shelf when he spotted the telltale "Made in China."

Mini crises erupted when our blender and television broke down. The television sputtered back to life without intervention, but it was a long, hot summer without smoothies. We killed four mice with old-fashioned snapping traps because the catch-and-release ones we prefer are made in China. Last summer at the beach my husband wore a pair of mismatched flip-flops my mother found in her garage. He'd run out of options at the drug store.

Navigating the toy aisle has been a wilting affair. In the spring, our 4-year-old son launched a countercampaign in support of "China things." He's been a good sport, but he's weary of Danish-made Legos, the only sure bet for birthday gifts for his friends. One morning in October he fell apart during a trip to Target when he developed a sudden lust for an electric purple pumpkin.

"It's too long without China," he wailed. He kept at me all day.

The next morning I drove him back so he could use his birthday money to buy the pumpkin for himself. I kept my fingers off the bills as he passed them to the checker.

My husband bemoans the Christmas gifts he can't buy because they were made in China. He plans to sew sleeping bags for the children himself. He can build wooden boats and guitars, but I fear he will meet his match with thread and needle.

"How hard can it be?" he scoffed.

The funny thing about China's ascent is that we, as a nation, could shut the whole thing down in a week. Jump-start a "Just Say No to Chinese Products Week," and the empire will collapse amid the chaos of overloaded cargo ships in Long Beach harbor. I doubt we could pull it off. Americans may be famously patriotic, but look closely, and you'll see who makes the flag magnets on their car bumpers. These days China delivers every major holiday, Fourth of July included.

I don't know what we will do after Dec. 31 when our family's embargo comes to its official end. China-free living has been a hassle. I have discovered for myself that China doesn't control every aspect of our daily lives, but if you take a close look at the underside of boxes in the toy department, I promise it will give you pause.

Our son knows where he stands on the matter. In the bathtub one evening he told me how happy he was that "the China season" was coming soon.

"When we can buy China things again, let's never stop," he said.

After a year without China, I can tell you this: You can still live without it, but it's getting trickier and costlier by the day. And a decade from now I may not be brave enough to try it again.

· Sara Bongiorni is a freelance writer and is working on a book about her family's yearlong adventure in the global economy.

[double bubble]

Starting to see more stuff from Viet Nam these days .

[l•k]

I'll bet 8.0753918 Yuan that her keyboard and/or mouse was Made in China.

[Edited by l•k on 12-22-2005 at 07:27 AM]

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

It's unsettling.

[tonys]

I'd LOVE to see a
"stop buying Chinaman-Products" campaign

...starve the communism out of em,

but, this will NEVER happen in a country that has people lining up all night outside a Walgreens (a freak'n drugstore) on Black Friday - just to save 50 cents on toothpaste!!!

[Edited by tonys on 12-22-2005 at 02:38 PM]

[hvacker]

I look back 20 years or so when the subject being taught in university ecconomics was, We are moving from a industrial based ecconomy to a service based ecconomy. Right away I knew those air heads never worked a day in their lives. It occured to me when I was younger that if I sold my time I only had so many hours a day. Even if I was a $400 an hr lawyer I'm still limited in what I can make. But on the other hand, if I made widgets there is no end of what I can make as long as I create demand for them. We as a country became wealthy because we produced stuff for the world. Granted after WW2 a lot of the world wasn't in a position to make anything and we were there to fill the gap.
Still, inovation never was better than in the USA and still thrives here But we need to make stuff or we are sending our wealth to build our own downfall.

I can't remember if it was Whitehead or someone else but whoever, "The West shall shake the East awake while you have the night for morn" Well guess what, the East is awake>

[braces4impact]

I'm so sick of the "jobs are going over seas" people! Do you really want that wined up toy robot packaging job that bad?

The fact of the matter is that the Chines freely chose to work in these supposedly squalid conditions for supposedly low pay because it it far superior to the socialist alternative that their government has produced for them. It may seem like low pay for us but to them in their economy it isn't. To advocate that Americans boycott these products would be to force these people into conditions much worse than they are in now. Not only that but then you are depriving lower income Americans from enjoying a higher standard of living because they can buy more stuff with their dollars. Do you want to buy a television made by Americans who want 20 dollars an hour and health insurance? That would in turn dig deeper into your pockets and you would have less to spend elsewhere or less to invest in other places.

But don't by hipocrites. Go protest in front of Honda and other foreign manufactures in this country and demand that they take their jobs back to their country! Oh wait you want it one way and not the other?

[double bubble]

Some good points Braces, I'd would only ask why just China a country that still has no problem shooting citizens down in the street . Why hasn't investments been spread around the globe , Mexico I believe could have used some of those jobs . Maybe a few of them could stay in thier own country that way . How about Africa or Iraq ? Or could it be those places never delivered grocery bags of cash to the White House .

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by double bubble
Some good points Braces, I'd would only ask why just China a country that still has no problem shooting citizens down in the street . Why hasn't investments been spread around the globe , Mexico I believe could have used some of those jobs . Maybe a few of them could stay in thier own country that way . How about Africa or Iraq ? Or could it be those places never delivered grocery bags of cash to the White House .




Some would say our country does the same thing with this drug war we have and other liberties being erroded. Should Japan for instance pull their manufacturing out because of that?

[l•k]

Don't cry for Mexico.
My Mercury Tracer ('87, I think it was) was built in Mexico.
The '06 Ford Fusion will be built in Mexico.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'06 Ford Fusion
optional 210 HP V-6 w/six-speedautomatic. YEAH!

[generaltech1]

Braces, why the hell should I give a rats ass what conditions the Chinese workers have to endure, or what happens to thier economy when ours is going down the toilet.

Sure, the lower income people that you spoke of may have more buying power, but those people wouldnt be lower income if they hadnt lost thier good paying factory jobs to work in fast food, thanks to the politicians, big business and the Chinese.

[RoBoTeq]

My posts are not even mine anymore. I outsourced my RoBoTeq username a few months ago to some Chinese guy who can post cheaper then I can.

[royc]

lol Robo...good one.


Anyone thinks that chinas economy is good for us, is clueless. The only hope I have is that the chineese will embrace their new found wealth and throw communism to the garbage heap, where it belongs.

Roy

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by royc
lol Robo...good one.


Anyone thinks that chinas economy is good for us, is clueless. The only hope I have is that the chineese will embrace their new found wealth and throw communism to the garbage heap, where it belongs.

Roy



We'll see about that sooner than later...

As long as there are wal-marts and deep deep discount retailers here in the United States, They will thrive on what they are doing....Regardless of if they are comunist or not...

Look closely at your investment portfolio..how much of your "international" investments are in "China" investments? Are they making money?

The answer is yes. Is it good for America...well. maybe, but probably not, at least not for the long run.....

Pick your battles, make money , or stand up for your country....


Where do you stand?

[Edited by oloenneker on 12-23-2005 at 06:06 AM]

[RoBoTeq]

I recently went into an Advanced Auto store to buy a specialty star socket to install a tailgate lock on my truck. Literally all of the tools sold in that store are made in Taiwan ROC.

I have noticed a trend among some stores that have switched to all Chinese products.....they go under.

Just before Hechinger's kicked the bucket I told Lisa that they were going to go bust. My indicator was that everything in the store was made in China. There was not even a choice for better quality products.

People who are willing to pay for quality are simply going to go where quality is sold. People who could care less about quality are going to buy at WalMart. Any store that is between selling quality products and WalMart is just not going to survive.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by generaltech1
Braces, why the hell should I give a rats ass what conditions the Chinese workers have to endure, or what happens to thier economy when ours is going down the toilet.

Sure, the lower income people that you spoke of may have more buying power, but those people wouldnt be lower income if they hadnt lost thier good paying factory jobs to work in fast food, thanks to the politicians, big business and the Chinese.



You are wrongly assuming the premise that American companies getting manufacturing jobs done overseas is bad for our economy. As I explained in my last post, the benefits far outweigh the few jobs lost here.

BTW, if someone has a low paying job guess who's fault that is?

[generaltech1]

So,lets see if i'm reading your reply correctly. What youre saying is, if a factory worker loses thier job to outsourcing, its thier fault that the only jobs available now are low-paying jobs, like fast food?
Or should they go back to school, while working to live, and pay for child care they cant afford, because they only work part-time, so they can get a degree. Then they can apply for jobs that will most likely be filled by Indians, Pakastanis, etc. anyway?? Then end up back in fast food, and cant afford to pay off thier student loans?
Its a fact that, most traditionally, higher paying skilled jobs, such as science, engineering, or anything computer-related, are being filled by foreigners. IBM has poured billions into Malaysia for thier operations. And this is good for our economy?
And next year, the limit on foreign worker visas is supposed to be raised, again, so that more cheap overseas labor can infiltrate our economy, and in effect, lowering wages for everyone. And this is a good thing, too?
What once made us a great economy was that we were self-sufficient, back then we produced, now we just consume. That, IMHO, cant be good for any economy. Kind of like the lazy brother that sleeps on your couch, consumes your food but produces nothing, yeah thats a good plan.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by generaltech1
So,lets see if i'm reading your reply correctly. What youre saying is, if a factory worker loses thier job to outsourcing, its thier fault that the only jobs available now are low-paying jobs, like fast food? Or should they go back to school, while working to live, and pay for child care they cant afford, because they only work part-time, so they can get a degree. Then they can apply for jobs that will most likely be filled by Indians, Pakastanis, etc. anyway?? Then end up back in fast food, and cant afford to pay off thier student loans?
Its a fact that, most traditionally, higher paying skilled jobs, such as science, engineering, or anything computer-related, are being filled by foreigners. IBM has poured billions into Malaysia for thier operations. And this is good for our economy? nd next year, the limit on foreign worker visas is supposed to be raised, again, so that more cheap overseas labor can infiltrate our economy, and in effect, lowering wages for everyone. And this is a good thing, too?
What once made us a great economy was that we were self-sufficient, back then we produced, now we just consume. That, IMHO, cant be good for any economy. Kind of like the lazy brother that sleeps on your couch, consumes your food but produces nothing, yeah thats a good plan.

First, the reason why these jobs are being filled by forigners is because foreigners kick our butts in these fields. I read someplace that if it was not for student visas there would not be enough students in college in sceince classes to support the cost of running the classes.

Secondly, you did not answer my question. I want you to link for me a bad economy as being caused by outsourcing.

Thridly, who's fault is it that they don't have a second trade to fall back on? The employers or the persons? No one has a right to a job and the job does not belong to the employeee it belongs to the employer. It belongs to the owner/s of the capital.

When company 'A' cuts it's overhead by getting cheaper labor, company 'B' better do something to compete or else they will lose market share and if they lose market share guess what happens?

Now why on earth would company 'b' loose market share? Because people normaly buy the lowest price things they can buy. Then that way they have more money to spend else where.

If things were your way Americans would be forced to buy high priced goods and thus have less money to spend on other things thus hurting some other company.

This translates into people having a lower standard of living because things lik color TV's etc would be items that only the rich could have.

You are not doing a darn thing but making yourself feel better while ignoring the big picture. You argument is not based on fact it is based on emotion. You see jobs lost and instead of thinking about it through it's logical conclusion you go with your first emotion and work from there.

Dont get me wrong. I am not FOR jobs going overseas. And I am not FOR keeping them here. I am for a FREE market and letting that process run it's natual course of action.

[hvacker]

You are wrongly assuming the premise that American companies getting manufacturing jobs done overseas is bad for our economy. As I explained in my last post, the benefits far outweigh the few jobs lost here.


No you don't get it. The guy that sells the stuff makes the money. The guy that buys the stuff loses the money. You are seeing a shift in wealth that is unpresedented.

Puzzle me this? When we have nothing to sell the world how are we going to make a living?

Really I see any society like a family in that income has to exceed spending or confidence erodes. Look at a family with large dept. They are vonerable to any disaster that happens. Whenever the Gov tries to sell us on the idea that a large dept is ok I think it's a lie.

[braces4impact]

No you don't get it. The guy that sells the stuff makes the money. The guy that buys the stuff loses the money. You are seeing a shift in wealth that is unpresedented.

Money is property the same as my shirt or anything else. The only difference is that money is the form of property usualy agreed upon on trades. When I trade my money for a house I am not losing anything, I am simply trading property.




Puzzle me this? When we have nothing to sell the world how are we going to make a living?



If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose- because it contains all the others- the fact that they were the people who created the phrase to make money. No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity- to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created." Ayn Rand


You create wealth by trading values. Your assumption that Americans have no other value except for textiles and electronics is insulting. So long as Americans have skills that are in demand rather it is in service or manufacturing there will be wealth creation.



Really I see any society like a family in that income has to exceed spending or confidence erodes. Look at a family with large dept. They are vonerable to any disaster that happens. Whenever the Gov tries to sell us on the idea that a large dept is ok I think it's a lie.


Now you are talking about another situation. We are in debut mainly b/c American has accept the notion of fiat money instead of a gold dtandard. We spend money we don't have. They wave a magic wand and make more but it is worthless. However this is a totaly different subject.

[neophytes serendipity]

I still fail to understand how a store full of merchandise made overseas is "good" for the American economy.

Many traditional middle class jobs have been sent overseas- no denying that. What have those jobs been replaced with? More middle class jobs? I think not.

I was making $9.50 an hour moving pallets in a warehouse almost 20 years ago. That very same job today pays less per hour and less benefits. The job today will not support a family, buy a new car or make the payments on a home- things that were possible then.

Maybe off topic, but yesterday, there were more "middle class" jobs to choose from. Not so today.

Now, there are plenty more retail and service sector jobs to choose from, but what do they pay?

Guess what, I have experience there, too. I was hired on at a big box store part time over 4 years ago. New full time hires are making 30% or more less than I am. How is this change good for the American economy? I have also winessed a massive influx of "house brand" made in China crap with sickening profit margins. I can see that it is good for those on top...

Then there is the touted explosion of white collar tech jobs. Guess what- those are going to India. My dad lost his techie job to Indian outsourcing.

I believe that numbers can be manipulated, and while there may be a rosy outlook for the economy, so much wealth is controlled by so few, and many more continue to struggle to make ends meet.

Americans cannot continue the life of the Eloi while the Morlocks toil in China and India.

[generaltech1]

Outsourcing is just another version of the "trickle-down" theory. Or as some will remember it, "Reaganomics". Through decreasing social spending, increased military spending, and deregulating domestic markets, tax cuts to the wealthy, and reducing expenses of corporations, also through tax cuts, subsidies(corporate welfare), the savings and/or profits would "trickle down" to the rest of the country and stimulate economic growth. And we know how well that worked for the economy.
And just as "reaganomics" was being highly touted then as being good for the economy, so is outsourcing now.



[Edited by generaltech1 on 12-25-2005 at 06:23 PM]

[James 3528]

Does anyone really care about the throw any junk Americans buy from China at Wal Mart? Would you want a job making a toaster?

[ozone drone]

Don't look now, but China is using all those American dollars to modernize and expand their armed forces ..won't be too long before they go after Taiwan. They're also trying to insure their share of the limited oil supplies and tried to buy an American oil company not long ago. I think this will bite us in the ass hard sometime down the road.

[MadeinUSA]

This country should never let itself become vulnerable where we are unable to be self sufficient or human nature in our enemies will take advantage of the situation and take what we know as The United States of America away from us.

We will not be able to defend ourselves at this point because all factories would be shut down and mothballed. We would not have a work force trained and in place to convert to war time manufacturing to produce goods and protect ourselves.

[ozone drone]

According to the Navy Times, the Navy is taking China's threat seriously. They're looking at forward deploying a second Carrier Strike group in either Guam or Hawaii. The only other carrier deployed in that part of the world now is the Kittyhawk in Japan.

[generaltech1]

Well said Made!

I had a similar thought, what the hell would happen to this country, after outsourcing all our manufacturing, if our suppliers decided to limit or cut off our supply? Since a main strategy is to secure your adversary and cut off thier supply lines.

[refrigeration mafia]

We don't even have wars on our own soil anymore. Bush has outsourced the war.

Aren't we in Iraq to stop the terrorists before they come here?

Pretty soon we'll be recruiting the chinese to fight our battles for us.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by James 3528
Does anyone really care about the throw any junk Americans buy from China at Wal Mart? Would you want a job making a toaster?

What is wrong with making toasters? Someone has to do it. As long as it pays the bills, what's the big deal?

Same thing can be said about nasty dirty construction type jobs.... Who wants to do that?

[Ripley/Fla]

It is Xmas day and this thread has pissed me off. Merry Christmas!I recently saw where Whirlpool or Maytag closed down a plant in Arkansas. 750 people lost there jobs; the company moved it to Mexico, new plant with 1000 jobs. Look around your HVAC distributor - more and more imported stuff. I try to buy American as much as possible - and I will pay more for it. Unfortunately corporate and personal greed dictates where the stuff will be made. The vast majority of the truly wealthy have never and will never give a rat's ass about anything but their bottom line. My answer? Export American culture to make foreign workers as demanding as us. As thet get sick of living in the "factory" where they are employed, there might be some changes as far as job losses.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by Ripley/Fla
It is Xmas day and this thread has pissed me off. Merry Christmas!I recently saw where Whirlpool or Maytag closed down a plant in Arkansas. 750 people lost there jobs; the company moved it to Mexico, new plant with 1000 jobs. Look around your HVAC distributor - more and more imported stuff. I try to buy American as much as possible - and I will pay more for it. Unfortunately corporate and personal greed dictates where the stuff will be made. The vast majority of the truly wealthy have never and will never give a rat's ass about anything but their bottom line. My answer? Export American culture to make foreign workers as demanding as us. As thet get sick of living in the "factory" where they are employed, there might be some changes as far as job losses.

Now more people will be able to afford washers and driers! This is bad?

The fact of the matter is that because America is becoming more advanced the types of jobs that pay money change. If we lived a hundred years ago it would be you people moaning about blacksmiths loosing their jobs.

"My father and his fathers father was a black smith. Black smithing is what built this country now it's going over seas!! WA WA WA WA!!!!!!"

Gues what people ? Blacksmithign came and when and we are still doing mighty fine.

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to make the connection from "jobs going over seas" to "bad economy".


As far as China starting a war, that is not going to happen. Not unless they want to take a finicial hit. A major hit from us. The more finacially tied two nations are the less likely they are to war with each other.

China does not want the US to impose economic sanctions on their butts! And if they attacked Tiawan I'd be all for it and a lot more.

[neophytes serendipity]

Everything has a perspective.

"Bad economy" doesn't mean anything if you are at the top of the food chain.

The situation is quite different if you belong in a field that is outsourced and can't find another job that pays an amount that will maintain your previous standard of living.

Just because an item is outsourced doesn't mean that the prices at the retail level will go down. Levi jeans, Maytag refrigerators, Radio Flyer wagons, Nike shoes, etc are not any cheaper since production has left the USA... So the BS statement that the items are "more affordable" is just that. More profitable is more truthful and appropriate.

The US economy is humming along for those in the upper brackets.

Unfortunateley, a lot of that is built upon a real estate speculation bubble. People aren't buying things because the job pays well, it is because either they are making money in real estate flipping homes- or hoping that the current home financed on an interest only loan appreciates enough (and sells fast enough) to make a quick buck.

If the median income in your area cannot afford the median home in your area, there is a problem.

[braces4impact]

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en&btnG=Search+Froogle&q=nike&lmode=online&price1=&price2=20.00&lnk=prsugg

Nikes for under 20 dollars. I never saw em so cheap.

[neophytes serendipity]

And???

Quite a range in pricing within the product lines.

People like you are the problem with America today. Always looking for the cheap deal.

You realize that the average minimum wage worker will have to work over 4 hours (before taxes) to buy those $20 Nikes. So, are those shoes too expensive, or does that person make too little money?

Some might say that the person has the right to move up and do something better than minimum wage, but even at $10 an hour, you are still looking at over 2 hours of labor after taxes.

For many people, $10 an hour is good money these days.

Are those people at the low end of the economic spectrum kids still living at home or secondary wage earners, like the statistics say... or are they primary wage earners that have been outsourced? Plenty of the latter in the little slice of retail America that I am familiar with.

There aren't many new jobs being created that pay more. The old ones are heading overseas.

Those that remain require a college education- an education that costs money. Seems kinda stupid to shell out $20k or more for a degree to secure that $10 an hour job. The college education is being devalued- just like wages for those outside of the 2% that control 98% of the money.

"They" told me than a college degree and white collar technology jobs will be the wave of the future. Pfft. Maybe in India. Who saw that one coming?

People did not want to pay anything for US manufactured goods in America- that is why those jobs left.

Guess what- people do not want to pay anything for the help in retail stores- so those wages stay low.

The success of places like Wal-Mart have driven the final nails into the manufacturing and wage coffins. The people that shop there are holding the hammer.

People also do not want to pay anything for service labor (lawn services, cleaning services, etc) so those wages stay low and also promote illegal immigration because that work is "beneath" some job seekers (but those jobs need to be filled).

Wasn't there a big scandal recently about illegal immigrants workig for cleaning services hired by large retailers? Naaahhh, couldn't be.

There have been wage postings here, on this website, and knowledgeable people are being paid much less than $20 an hour for a skilled trade. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those employees are subsidizing their employer by providing a vehicle, fuel, a phone and tools out of their own post-tax wages. Then owners have the gall to complain about those employees doing sidejobs to make ends meet.

So tell me- who is outsourcing good for? I can't figure it out from my end of the economic horizon.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 12-26-2005 at 01:08 AM]

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity

Quite a range in pricing within the product lines.

People like you are the problem with America today. Always looking for the cheap deal.


No the problem with America today is socialism and the fact that people are not even aware that what they argue for is exactly that in one form or another.


You realize that the average minimum wage worker will have to work over 4 hours (before taxes) to buy those $20 Nikes. So, are those shoes too expensive, or does that person make too little money?


So what? Get an education and get a better job.

If you are an adult and you never did anything to better yourself more than that you are a loser and deserve no shoes.


Some might say that the person has the right to move up and do something better than minimum wage, but even at $10 an hour, you are still looking at over 2 hours of labor after taxes.

I have a violin. Guess what I'm playing?





There aren't many new jobs being created that pay more. The old ones are heading overseas.


Source? The unemployment rate is pretty low right now. GDP is doing good too. What you say is b/s.


Those that remain require a college education- an education that costs money. Seems kinda stupid to shell out $20k or more for a degree to secure that $10 an hour job. The college education is being devalued- just like wages for those outside of the 2% that control 98% of the money.


What college educated job pays 10 an hour? Even if that is true ten an hour is good money for starting pay in some parts of the country.


"They" told me than a college degree and white collar technology jobs will be the wave of the future. Pfft. Maybe in India. Who saw that one coming?

My friend got a degree in Economics and makes 65K a year doing audits for some company and he's 22.


People did not want to pay anything for US manufactured goods in America- that is why those jobs left.

Maybe it's not they they didn't want to but it was an issue of them not being able to.


Guess what- people do not want to pay anything for the help in retail stores- so those wages stay low.


I've seen companies refuse to pay more and I've also seen people walk out and them have a hard time hiring technicians that are not dip sh*ts. Guess what eventually happend to the pay? It went up.

If an employer can supply his demand with X amount of labor and he has tons of applicatiosn to chose from why in the hell should the pay go up?



The success of places like Wal-Mart have driven the final nails into the manufacturing and wage coffins. The people that shop there are holding the hammer.

Ok you keep making the claim that toy robot manufacturing and under wear going overseas is bad. And I keep asking you to explain how it is bad and you still haven't.



People also do not want to pay anything for service labor (lawn services, cleaning services, etc) so those wages stay low and also promote illegal immigration because that work is "beneath" some job seekers (but those jobs need to be filled).

What? Grass cutters make good darn money!


Wasn't there a big scandal recently about illegal immigrants workig for cleaning services hired by large retailers? Naaahhh, couldn't be.

Oh ok so you want that job? You want the crap scrubbing job? Is that your skill level? Americans will not take these jobs guy!


There have been wage postings here, on this website, and knowledgeable people are being paid much less than $20 an hour for a skilled trade. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those employees are subsidizing their employer by providing a vehicle, fuel, a phone and tools out of their own post-tax wages. Then owners have the gall to complain about those employees doing sidejobs to make ends meet.

Then why do they willingly take the job if they think they are worth more?




So tell me- who is outsourcing good for? I can't figure it out from my end of the economic horizon.



The consumer. The one who spends money and creats demand for new jobs.

[neophytes serendipity]

You know, you are probably one of those people that won't believe in global warming until Florida is covered with saltwater or until the Statue of Liberty has a new water line.

Numbers can be manipulated. Why does the government post rosy inflation figures*?

* means that the numbers that are posted EXCLUDE energy and food costs.

In my part of the world, food and energy costs are WAY up- way over the 2% number that is posted.

Is there a reason to exclude those things? Can a consumer stop buying energy and food? Probably, but not long term.

You claim that the consumer is driving the creation of jobs. Well, if that consumer is buying imported consumer goods, then where are those jobs being created?

An individual only has so many choices regarding wages in their field of expertise. If all the HVAC employers in the area are paying $15 an hour and saddle the transport, fuel, phone and tool burden on the employee, then what real choice is there if all the companies do it? I suppose one could move to another area.... ABC HVAC could provide better wages and bennies than XYZ HVAC without outside influence, but admittedly, that is rare.

I suppose the employee could go out and start his own company, but if the others are cutthroat on the bids, then you must do the same if you want to persue the same work.

Of course, you could also choose a completely different field of work.

As far as retail wages go, why don't you fill out some apps and tell me what they are paying. For some added humor, tell them that you demand more than what they offer- what you think you are worth- and let me know how it goes.

When I started my little part time retail job, there were a lot of traditional retail employees. College kids, married moms looking for some extra money and a couple of retirees and tradesmen looking for the same. Now, there are a lot of "outsourced" and "downsized" people there that are working for their primary income or medical benefits. They are also making much less per hour than I am. I do not think my experience is unique or isolated.

Enron and WorldCom both posted some pretty good number for a while- then the bottom fell out.

Heck, Bush removed the prevailing wage laws from the area destroyed by Katrina. That means the people working there can earn less and the contractors pocket more. Is that good for the economy?

The numbers may show that the GDP is improving, but the foundations are being destroyed.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by Ripley/Fla
Export American culture to make foreign workers as demanding as us.

You mean like start a war in another country, kick thier butts, remove the existing leader, and show them how to have democratic elections? Wow! What a great idea!

Where should we start? How about, say, Iraq or some such place?

[James 3528]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity

Originally posted by James 3528
Does anyone really care about the throw any junk Americans buy from China at Wal Mart? Would you want a job making a toaster?

What is wrong with making toasters? Someone has to do it. As long as it pays the bills, what's the big deal?

Same thing can be said about nasty dirty construction type jobs.... Who wants to do that?

The common law of the consumer is that they are not going to pay $100 for a toaster. Construction jobs compared to assembling a toaster?

When we pay a worker the same we do to not work. Guess what?

[johnl45]

Originally posted by generaltech1
why the hell should I give a rats ass what conditions the Chinese workers have to endure, or what happens to thier economy when ours is going down the toilet.

Sure, the lower income people that you spoke of may have more buying power, but those people wouldnt be lower income if they hadnt lost thier good paying factory jobs to work in fast food, thanks to the politicians, big business and the Chinese.
You are wrongly assuming the premise that American companies getting manufacturing jobs done overseas is bad for our economy. As I explained in my last post, the benefits far outweigh the few jobs lost here.

BTW, if someone has a low paying job guess who's fault that is? American companies go to China because they can take advantage of the Chinese workers with the help of the communist and our own government. We've spent trillions of dollars and ten's of thousands of American lives fighting communism but that means nothing to American companies, the only thing important to them is a cheap controlled labor force.

[James 3528]

We spent money fighting Japan and Germany also

[l•k]

but Japan sank the Lusitania and Germany bombed the Alamo

[ruud-man]

The only reason Wal-mart exist is because the American consumer shops there...

The only reason Wal-mart imports cheap Chinese goods is because the American consumer buys them...

The only reason jobs are going to China is to compete with cheap goods that the American consumer apparently wants...

Quality and cheap are mutually exclusive. The American consumer has spoken with their pocket books...

Buy cheap and whine about jobs going out of the country.

Go figure...

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by James 3528
[QUOTE]The common law of the consumer is that they are not going to pay $100 for a toaster. Construction jobs compared to assembling a toaster?

When we pay a worker the same we do to not work. Guess what?

Why would a mass produced toaster cost $100.00?

What differentiates most general "construction" jobs from a factory type job? There are plenty of construction workers earning factory level wages. There are also plenty of professional white collar jobholders that believe a skilled tradesman is nothing more than an overpaid laborer.

[double bubble]

good thought proccess neo . I had said in this forum before that I believe white coller America has an ax to grind with blue coller America , Guess they hate where they come from .

[braces4impact]

An individual only has so many choices regarding wages in their field of expertise. If all the HVAC employers in the area are paying $15 an hour and saddle the transport, fuel, phone and tool burden on the employee, then what real choice is there if all the companies do it? I suppose one could move to another area.... ABC HVAC could provide better wages and bennies than XYZ HVAC without outside influence, but admittedly, that is rare.

I suppose the employee could go out and start his own company, but if the others are cutthroat on the bids, then you must do the same if you want to persue the same work.

Or you can learn more thus making yourself more valueable and getting that raise.


You claim that the consumer is driving the creation of jobs. Well, if that consumer is buying imported consumer goods, then where are those jobs being created?

They are being created there but also because the American consumer is saving money so inturn that is billions of dollars flushed back into banks or spent in other places. It's harder to trace the secondary effects and the jobs created by it but it is no less real.



As far as retail wages go, why don't you fill out some apps and tell me what they are paying. For some added humor, tell them that you demand more than what they offer- what you think you are worth- and let me know how it goes.

The reason they can laugh at me is because there are plenty behind me willing to take their offer.


You know, you are probably one of those people that won't believe in global warming until Florida is covered with saltwater or until the Statue of Liberty has a new water line.

The sky is falling the sky is falling!

[braces4impact]

Why would a mass produced toaster cost $100.00?

I think he may have been exaggerating there a bit but there is no denial that the toaster would cost much more ergo many would buy the toaster that cost less and take away market share from the toaster made in America. Then the American toaster company shuts down and they all loose their jobs anyways!

The only "solution" to make things work like you want them to is to place restrictions on American companies from getting labor overseas. This inturn would open up the market for foreign companies to export to America and compete for market share. But then you would have to get tariffs placed on the foreign company toasters to make them roughly the same price at the American toasters to "protect" the American companies. But just as we can place tariffs so can they in retaliation. Now no American goods stand a chance of being sold in their country thus hurting American business even more. Not only that since we have strained ties with that country they are less likely to be sympathetic to our foreign policy needs. But hey, we protected the 50 peoples jobs!




[Edited by braces4impact on 12-28-2005 at 10:47 PM]

[James 3528]

Originally posted by braces4impact

Why would a mass produced toaster cost $100.00?

I think he may have been exaggerating there a bit but there is no denial that the toaster would cost much more ergo many would buy the toaster that cost less and take away market share from the toaster made in America. Then the American toaster company shuts down and they all loose their jobs anyways!

The only "solution" to make things work like you want them to is to place restrictions on American companies from getting labor overseas. This inturn would open up the market for foreign companies to export to America and compete for market share. But then you would have to get tariffs placed on the foreign company toasters to make them roughly the same price at the American toasters to "protect" the American companies. But just as we can place tariffs so can they in retaliation. Now no American goods stand a chance of being sold in their country thus hurting American business even more. Not only that since we have strained ties with that country they are less likely to be sympathetic to our foreign policy needs. But hey, we protected the 50 peoples jobs!




[Edited by braces4impact on 12-28-2005 at 10:47 PM]

Exaggerating ?

Oh no sport. The UAW would be making the toaster.


Look what they did for GM.

[braces4impact]

Oh ok well in that case toaster (singular) would probabaly be right. I mean you know how "fast" union employees work.

[tonys]

Toyota and Honda seem to be doing Quite Well without the 'assistance' of the UAW.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by tonys
Toyota and Honda seem to be doing Quite Well without the 'assistance' of the UAW.

Yea toyota is on the verge of being the number one car maker in America.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by braces4impact
They are being created there but also because the American consumer is saving money so inturn that is billions of dollars flushed back into banks or spent in other places. It's harder to trace the secondary effects and the jobs created by it but it is no less real.


Hmmmmm.....

The "jobs are being created there"... As in "not America", right?

The United States has one of the lowest personal savings rates in the world, sooooooooooo, whose money is being "flushed back into banks"??? Must belong to those making that money sending jobs to China.

Someone is not "saving money" by shopping China-Mart because they cannot afford to buy the product made in America.

Americans are not "spending money" by financing everything on deferred payments. At some point the bill must be paid, and judging by the record numbers of bankruptcies and credit card defaults, the bills aren't being paid. Those costs are being passed on to the consumers that are financially afloat in the form of higher prices, higher credit interest rates and lower savings interest rates.

Your logic is flawed.

And global warming is real. The cause may not be directly related to the activities of an industrialized society, but we are speeding along the effects by throwing billions of tons of excess carbon into the atmosphere.

Atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are increasing- fact.

Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas- fact.

Global mean temperatures are increasing- fact.

Changes of 1* F have been documented in equatorial regions, resulting in sweeping changes in plant and animal behaviors- fact.

Ocean temperature change has been documented with a corresponding increase in hurricane activity- fact.

Glacier melt-off is much higher than believed- fact.

Worldwide snowline elevation is increasing- fact.

The sky is not falling, but it is getting warmer.

[braces4impact]

For you neo,

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=576

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by braces4impact
For you neo,

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=576

This statement here- "A patriotic American acts as a capitalist and an individualist: he buys the best, wherever it may be found." (from the end of the linked article) makes sense.

In fact, I always try to do just that- one reason why I have a Fein MultiMaster instead of a Ryobi detail sander. I also buy $9.99 Sylvania Hungarian made bulbs for my 500w halogen light instead of the $2.99 Chinese ones (the light output is a whole lot better). I can think of plenty of other examples.

I realize that it is almost impossible to "Buy American" all the time at any cost.

However, the spirit of the statement above does not apply to the mass merchandising of Chinese made goods for sale at so many stores. In those cases, consumers are searching for (and purchasing) the cheapest, not the best. The massive influx of cheap Chinese goods was the topic of the original post- not the overwhelming excellent quality of those goods.

I wonder what viewpoint the writer would have if his deep thinking job was outsourced to some Indian monks? How much employment would be created with that change?

The search for the cheapest at any cost cannot be good for America.

[braces4impact]

Dr. Binswanger's experience as being an associate of Ayn Rand cannot be outsourced to a monk.

[neophytes serendipity]

And why not? Certainly a monk in India can philosophize for less than $12 a month :)

Part of me would really like to hear what his thoughts would be on the subject of his own outsourcing and how America would be better off with that. Apparently, it is good for others, so let's bring it much closer to home.

I can imagine how much capital would be freed up if subscribers to his forum paid much less for the same services. I can hardly grasp the many beneficial lifestyle changes for those subscribers...

What a bunch of crap.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 01-06-2006 at 06:34 AM]

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
And why not? Certainly a monk in India can philosophize for less than $12 a month :)

Part of me would really like to hear what his thoughts would be on the subject of his own outsourcing and how America would be better off with that. Apparently, it is good for others, so let's bring it much closer to home.

I can imagine how much capital would be freed up if subscribers to his forum paid much less for the same services. I can hardly grasp the many beneficial lifestyle changes for those subscribers...

What a bunch of crap.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 01-06-2006 at 06:34 AM]

A monk in India was not a personal friend to Ayn Rand there asking her questions about her philosophy and probing her thoughts. Dr. Binswagner was however that is why his philosophizing cannot be replaced.

[neophytes serendipity]

Nothing is irreplaceable.

You are skirting the proposition that many lives may be improved if the good Dr's services are available cheaper elsewhere- just like in that article he wrote.

[remember]

Originally posted by Ripley/Fla
It is Xmas day and this thread has pissed me off. Merry Christmas!I recently saw where Whirlpool or Maytag closed down a plant in Arkansas. 750 people lost there jobs; the company moved it to Mexico, new plant with 1000 jobs. Look around your HVAC distributor - more and more imported stuff. I try to buy American as much as possible - and I will pay more for it. Unfortunately corporate and personal greed dictates where the stuff will be made. The vast majority of the truly wealthy have never and will never give a rat's ass about anything but their bottom line. My answer? Export American culture to make foreign workers as demanding as us. As thet get sick of living in the "factory" where they are employed, there might be some changes as far as job losses.


now, that is an option...

the whole thing about the free trade myths is that they don't take into account societal pressures...



if we connected living standards to countries that get most favored trade status with us... we might get somewhere...

some people around here are parroting the free trade mantra's... and excusing the selling out of american business. and saying, there will be new jobs.... but to that I say,"like what"...

and to those who think that if we don't let these goods in for free, we might not get our goods sold to them in return.. you gotta ask,"what manufactured goods are we selling now?and considering these other countries pay a dollar a day... just when are they ever going to buy our goods...
these people are espousing a race to the bottom. and that is a disaster waiting to happen.

walmart, and all the rest importing these chinese goods.... have a business model, not only because poor people want cheap stuff... but because the congress has stacked the decks so the merchandisers can cut out manufacturers and buy overseas without any tariff or import duty restrictions... this was done in the early 90's. in congress...
ever since then our trade deficits have been way out of hand...


but like someone said,
if we want to screw china, right back... we need to instill in their culture a drive to become free like us. to include the lower classes in the good life...one out of every eight people on earth is a chinese peasant.

what they have, the growth they are experiencing is being funded by western dollars going to shift manufacturing to their free for all economy.no restrictions on wealth, no enviromental protections, no workers rights or protections, no longer do the chinese have the safety net of a communist socialized healthcare. now they are being forced to pay their own way, and it is getting ahead of them, like it is getting ahead of us...they will have to close down entire cities factories, before the olympics, just to get the air clean enough for the athletes to perform....
china is heading for a mess, and a possible revolution...

and when those people taste capitalism, and have to pay for what they get, and get envious of what others have, that is a hornets nest the commie gov't doesn't want to have happen.. they wish they could clamp down on taiwan, but taiwan is a moneymaker.And their hands are tied.

china can implode,
what is ironic, is western companies ,the bushies,and these free trade politicians are helping the suppressive communist regime hold onto power. even microsoft and other telecommunications companies are allowing the censorship programs to be part of their software so the gov't can spy on people striving for freedom...they choose money over liberty.

[remember]

here is a eventuality, on the free trade agenda...

people here who want to boil everything down to the lowest econmoic denominator, like nothing else matters... here is what you are pushing...

with provisions of CAFTA, like NAFTA, And the FTAA... a glimpse of the future of the hvac industry....

everything in the entire industry can be outsourced cheaper...


of course all components can be outsourced, and built in china or vietnam or wherever... cheaper..

the engineering of new systems, with digital transmissions of every factor that will go into the new installations, even with virtual walkthru's.. can all be done via computer by engineers in india who will work for 5,000 dollars a year, and put in 70 hr weeks..

blueprints /plans/instructions can come out of printers in whatever language an installer needs.sent from the other side of the globe.

even contractor sales can be done thru chain stores like walmart, who pay their counter help/hvac professionals $11/hr.. to handle all distribution and supply of foreign components...
right down to the service techs(who with the provisions in cafta that deregulate the liscencing standards , and allow honduran trained techs;who are as good as any american tech,but come to this country and work for 15$/hr(good pay in honduras), and put everything in as per american code standards.

and technical helplines will be routed thru online virtual digital communications networks set up by the walmart hvac division who with all this outsourcing and lowest price has bankrupted all competitors in 50 states....all competitors except the other three, who also outsource everything, and keep wages /prices low so everyone is either a part of a behemoth multinational corporation, or is priced out of the market...
after all. there is no art to hvac, it either works or it doesn't.

and the economy of scale a walmart like organization who buys up several manufacturers like goodman,ruud,and carrier and trane... and the other who is several other brand names

will get ALL the commercial and residential development contracts , because they can do it cheaper...they can even bid contracts for the military to keep up the hvac on bases,old and new.

and even retro-fits can be done by these franchise installation crews.. who get a greater discount than independant installers... and may only work in this country on a limited use visa...and all would underbid anyone wishing to clear 30,000 dollars a year.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
Nothing is irreplaceable.

You are skirting the proposition that many lives may be improved if the good Dr's services are available cheaper elsewhere- just like in that article he wrote.


Who else can speak of the personal experiences with Ayn Rand? Not many. How can you outsource that?

[braces4impact]

no workers rights or protections, no longer do the chinese have the safety net of a communist socialized healthcare

And you're more conservative than me? Yea that had it so darn good over there under communisim! If you like social care so much why don't you move to cuba? Bon Voyage!

[l•k]

"Proper Prior Planning Prevents . . ."

So, there's prior planning, and post planning ??

[Edited by l•k on 01-07-2006 at 01:04 AM]

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by l•k
"Proper Prior Planning Prevents . . ."

So, there's prior planning, and post planning ??

[Edited by l•k on 01-07-2006 at 01:04 AM]

Yup. Unfortunatley, the majority of the jobs I am on involve more of the post planning... ;)

[braces4impact]

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

John Ruskin

1.) Cheaper in price does not always mean less durable.


2.) So instead of letting people decide for themselves if they want the cheaper item ( remember the whole freedom thing?) or the more expensive item Mr Ruskin wants there to be only one choice - expensive items. Now with things like salad shooters that's one thing. But for big ticket items that people need, the more expensive item may not be an option because of their income. So Mr Ruskin wants to "F" those people right outa the picture and leave them with no options.

[neophytes serendipity]

At what point is something "too expensive"?

Or is it that because incomes for the working people in America are losing ground, you simply do not make enough so you are forced to shop at the places that continue to drive costs and wages to the bottom. Cycle repeats.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
At what point is something "too expensive"?

Or is it that because incomes for the working people in America are losing ground, you simply do not make enough so you are forced to shop at the places that continue to drive costs and wages to the bottom. Cycle repeats.



It drives cost down and this inturn drives purchasing power up. With your system the dollars losses power and all you are doing is making yourself feel good while ignoring the secondary effects.

[neophytes serendipity]

My purchasing power has been falling for the last 20 years.

Using your reasoning, Americans should be swimming in excess cash from all the "extra" purchasing power created by all the cheap imported junk.

Judging by the number of bankruptcies, your theory seems to have a few holes in it.

[braces4impact]

Originally posted by outside rep
also youur purchasing power has not shrunken you are just buying more junk that you dont need

the complaint is that were not makeing enough we are making more then enough its that we are wasting more and more of it every day bigger cars bigger houses bigger tvs bigger this bigger that you complain about houses being to much for the normal worker to afford yeah if your buying a 3000sgft house well duh the average size house in the great old times was 900 -1200 sgft not the aveage now of 2700-3000+ sqft

quit wasting most of your money on stuff you dont need and save some of it and quit your *****ing

also I would rather buy something made in another country since they are made better most of the time

Not only that but the tax burden is the higest it has ever been.

[neophytes serendipity]

My home is a whopping 1200 square feet on a slab. It is not full of stuff I don't need- mainly because most of it is now made in China.

I do not believe in conspicuous consumption.

[scrogdog]

Smog is blocking sunlight in China and making much of the country significantly darker than it was half a century ago.

Using nearly 500 instruments spread throughout the country that record the amount of sunlight reaching the ground, researchers found that solar radiation has decreased by about 2 percent per decade since 1954.

The country is roughly 10 percent darker on average than it was 50 years ago.

Fewer clouds

The researchers also found that water evaporation rates across the country have decreased in the same period, by about 1.5 inches per decade.

The dip in solar radiation, combined with other factors such as increased temperatures and wind speeds, are likely behind this trend, said lead researcher Yun Qian from Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) in Washington state.

Adding further support to this hypothesis is that cloud cover, the other likely explanation, has actually decreased in China over the past half century, by 0.78 percent each decade.

Eliminating clouds from the dimming equation leaves little doubt that fossil fuel emissions, which have increased by nine-fold in the past half-century, is blanketing China in a foggy haze that absorbs and deflects sunlight, the researchers say.

Will get worse

China's expected increase in economic activity will only make the situation worse and could lead to other problems as well, Qian said.

"Haze doesn't just block the solar radiation," Qian said. "It is also infamous for acid rain and respiratory diseases."

The study was detailed online recently by the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

Copyright © 2006 Imaginova Corp. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182326,00.html

[outside rep]

So there you go all there industry will kill them off and it will come back to the US were we can spread the smog around lol

[viceman]

we do hvac right?
Plants buy chillers, boilers,etc.right?

production facilities need offices right?
offices need hvac right?

call centers are being outsourced to india right?
call centers need hvac right?

we sell and service hvac right?

it isn't too hard to figure out !right?