Wiretaps?,4th amendment... Smoke this.

[addfreon]

Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: AF


Anybody who rationalizes George W. Bush’s illegal use of secret,
warrantless wiretaps against American citizens is no friend of
democracy. They may call themselves “conservatives.” But they might with
equal accuracy dub themselves Martians or Zoroastrians. In reality, they
are ideologues who place party over country, enemies of the Constitution
and its freedoms. There’s evidently no outrage they won’t rationalize so
long as a Republican’s doing it. For reasons best left to historians,
the Republican right has made itself captive to a brand of callow
authoritarianism that’s found its hero in this swaggering mediocrity who
appears invariably to draw the wrong lessons from what few scraps of
history he knows. The last time no-warrant, presidentially authorized
wiretaps came before the Supreme Court was 1972, courtesy of President
Richard M. Nixon, who used the FBI to spy on political foes and famously
decreed that “when the president does it, that means it’s not illegal.”
The court voted 8-0 against Nixonian presumption. In his concurring
opinion, Justice William O. Douglas quoted his illustrious predecessor,
Justice Louis Brandeis : “Those who won our independence by revolution
were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt
order at the cost of liberty.”

Here’s the Fourth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution. Take a good look,
because if Bush’s latest power grab stands, it may as well be repealed.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers
and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched and the persons or things to be seized.”

Bush and his legal enablers hold to an extremist interpretation of the
“commander-in-chief” clause of the U. S. Constitution that would give
him virtually unlimited executive powers in times of war—even a “war on
terror,” a metaphorical struggle against an abstract noun which
theoretically could go on forever.

It’s an absurd argument. The president commands the armed forces, not
the United States. The Founding Fathers meant to assure civilian control
of the military, not to establish a wartime strongman.

It’s not much of an exaggeration to say that Bush is claiming powers
surrendered by the English monarchy in the Magna Carta of 1215 (although
medieval monarchs regained them ). In a nation of laws, not men,
warrantless surveillance should be seen as the recipe for a police
state.

Bush asks us to trust him, our wise and benevolent leader. To
Republicans inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, I offer this
rebuttal : “President Hillary Rodham Clinton.”

No, I don’t think she can be elected, either. But are you willing to
stake your liberty on it? Because at the rate the Iraq war is spawning
Islamic extremists, the war on terror won’t end in your lifetime or
mine.

If warrantless surveillance is such a swell idea, why has Bush been
untruthful about it? “[A ] ny time you hear the United States government
talking about wiretap, it requires—a wiretap requires a court order,” he
said on April 20, 2004. “Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re
talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a
court order before we do so. It’s important for our fellow citizens to
understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in
place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland,
because we value the Constitution.”

Does anybody think would-be terrorists don’t know that their phones and
e-mails might be monitored? It’s not as if warrants are hard to get.
Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, the government
has three days after initiating a wiretap to notify a secret court that
meets on demand at the Justice Department. Thousands of warrants have
been issued, a tiny handful denied.

But Bush evidently doesn’t want even a secret court to know who’s being
spied on. He may have good reason. NBC News reported that the Pentagon
is up to its old tricks. Papers obtained by the ACLU reportedly show the
FBI gathering intelligence on a “Vegan Community Project,” People for
the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Greenpeace and the Catholic Workers,
all about as likely to launch a terrorist attack as my basset hound
Fred. Even worse, police states don’t even work. As one-time Soviet
dissident Vladimir Bukovsky explained in a recent Washington Post column
about torture, lawlessness drives out talented investigators and floods
the system with bad information. “In its heyday,” he wrote, “Joseph
Stalin’s notorious NKVD (the Soviet secret police ) became nothing more
than an army of butchers terrorizing the whole country but incapable of
solving the simplest of crimes.” I’m with Ben Franklin : “Those that
would give up essential liberty in pursuit of a little temporary
security deserve neither liberty nor security.”

GENE LYONS, Arkansas Democrat Gazette

[double bubble]

Hey I remember Fred the basset hound from Smokey and the Bandit .

[addfreon]

I love it when he runs over the bikes at the red-neck bar...Whoo-Hooo!

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

Sick liberal propoganda! (stomach turning, nausea setting in, feeling annoyed)

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy
Sick liberal propoganda! (stomach turning, nausea setting in, feeling annoyed)

Good, because the right wing propaganda induces the same nausea, and sick feeling in my stomach...

[addfreon]

The truth hurts...especially when it slowly dawns on the most patiotic that their loyalty has been rewarded with the betrayal of our countries most basic foundation of law ... it's no wonder your stomach is turning.

Here's the 4th amendment again:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers
and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched and the persons or things to be seized.”

Get sick and purge the lies and self-delusion from your body...only then will you truly be free.AF

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

Originally posted by addfreon
The truth hurts...especially when it slowly dawns on the most patiotic that their loyalty has been rewarded with the betrayal of our countries most basic foundation of law ... it's no wonder your stomach is turning.

Here's the 4th amendment again:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers
and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported
by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched and the persons or things to be seized.”

Get sick and purge the lies and self-delusion from your body...only then will you truly be free.AF



I would rather live in a nazi death camp than your politically-erect devoid-of-soul society.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy
I would rather live in a nazi death camp ...

You may just get your chance here shortly.

[addfreon]

Continue with the self delusional belief in a man like george bush above the constitutional backbone of this great republic and your wish may come true(re-education camp)


I wonder what your defintion of "souless" is, though?

The freedoms enumerated in flawless language and natural poetry of the preamble and "bill of rights" are soul-less to you...I guess you belive the current president is a great inspirational orator?

Jeez..dude....walk out of the yellow rain...
Best of Luck....AF

[RoBoTeq]

If you are not free enough to give up a few freedoms in order to preserve your freedoms in general, then you do not deserve to be free.

We must work for our freedoms, and that sometimes will cost us some of our freedom. No biggy for those who are not on a list of known participants with known terrorists and don't make overseas calls to known terrorist types.

You idiots just don't have a clue as to what needs to go on in order for you to have the freedom to condemn those who do what is needed for you to condemn them.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
If you are not free enough to give up a few freedoms in order to preserve your freedoms in general, then you do not deserve to be free.

We must work for our freedoms, and that sometimes will cost us some of our freedom. No biggy for those who are not on a list of known participants with known terrorists and don't make overseas calls to known terrorist types.

You idiots just don't have a clue as to what needs to go on in order for you to have the freedom to condemn those who do what is needed for you to condemn them.

I think it's just a trust issue really.

[bornriding]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
If you are not free enough to give up a few freedoms in order to preserve your freedoms in general, then you do not deserve to be free.




My problem with this is who decides what feedoms should be given up and to what extent they are to be preserved. I just don't trust the people asking us to give up those freedoms, they have already taken enough.

Richard

[braces4impact]

If you are not free enough to give up a few freedoms in order to preserve your freedoms in general, then you do not deserve to be free.

You should enter that one into the "Let's See Who Can Contradict Themselves in One Breath the Most", contest.

[addfreon]

Originally posted by braces4impact

If you are not free enough to give up a few freedoms in order to preserve your freedoms in general, then you do not deserve to be free.

You should enter that one into the "Let's See Who Can Contradict Themselves in One Breath the Most", contest.




It's sad ....the extent to which the echo-chamber of the right-wing propaganda machine has infected the common-sense of red-meat,true-blue-blood americans to be willing to sacrifice any of their enumerated liberties for the sake of "order". NO ANGER, NO FEAR, NO ENVY....That is the true bulwark and foundation of Freedom.

[big al2]

It is amazing to me how a group of people can condone the acts of their group and blast another group for the same actions.

I am not a Bush basher or a Clinton basher, but didn't Clinton get in trouble for using the same sort of "private" information for personal use.
This does not releif Bush's blame. Its just that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I thought there was a set of judges in the Justice Department that could approve these types of wiretaps without publishing the info. (one just quit over this)

I wish they would pass a law that says they must have warrents within say 2 weeks of starting the investigation. That would make everybody happy and maintain freedom and trust for all.

[RoBoTeq]

Using private information for personal use is a lot different then using private information for national security. I am not familiar with what you are referring to about Clinton, but if it was for his personal use, then it was wrong no matter what.

President Bush has let others know what he is authorizing. This is top secret espionage work that is being monitored by much more then President Bush. What ever happened to the American understanding that "loose lips, sink ships"?

[MadeinUSA]

Let’s see here.

Ref thinks 3 more bombs needed to go off before we do anything.

Addsniff thinks we should not look for the wannabe bombers.

If you add up those two angles, then I gather the libs think we should just send a plane over their, and load up some terrorists and bombs, then fly them non-stop to wherever they choose to carry out their mission and we can all just sit back and watch the fireworks.

Oh, we already got to do that. I forgot. That was clintler’s policy.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by madeinusa
Let’s see here.

Ref thinks 3 more bombs needed to go off before we do anything.

Addsniff thinks we should not look for the wannabe bombers.

If you add up those two angles, then I gather the libs think we should just send a plane over their, and load up some terrorists and bombs, then fly them non-stop to wherever they choose to carry out their mission and we can all just sit back and watch the fireworks.


A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.

It's not like we are having daily bus and cafe bombings here, now is it. I am not saying that we should allow terrorists to do whatever they want. A system of resonable checks and balances to police the streets is needed, not an unreasonable blind faith in a single man. Don't you morons know anything about history?

[tonys]

the government would rather 'limit' freedoms and privacy
instead of making sure - REAL SURE, FBI offices actually and effectively talk to each other
(ref. minor oversight on flight school training in Arizona)

...yes, pathetic indeed.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.



Your disdain for the lives of those who died horribly while going about their daily business is beyond being vulgar. Since you obviously have no moral values whatsoever the most I could hope for is that the next act of terrorism affects you a bit more personally.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
...the most I could hope for is that the next act of terrorism affects you a bit more personally.

Spreading the love of Jesus again I see.

[MadeinUSA]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.

It's not like we are having daily bus and cafe bombings here, now is it. I am not saying that we should allow terrorists to do whatever they want. A system of resonable checks and balances to police the streets is needed, not an unreasonable blind faith in a single man. Don't you morons know anything about history? You could have just admitted to everyone here you are WHITE TRAILER TRASH.

I have seen some ignorant posts in my time, but this post of yours is by far the most ignorant statement I have ever seen in my life from anywhere.

You are the lowest form of human garbage to even think this way concerning the American citizens who were lost on 9/11.

It takes a pussy to say something like that and hide behind a computer screen. When you think you are a man, why don’t you go step out in public, like say ground zero, and announce the same statement. You might be surprised what results you see.

[tonys]

but, tell us how you REALLY feel.

[tonys]

do you feel LOVED???

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
...the most I could hope for is that the next act of terrorism affects you a bit more personally.

Spreading the love of Jesus again I see.

Nope; that is my own fallen from grace feeling about someone as hateful as you are. Unlike Jesus, I am far from being perfect.

[remember]

Originally posted by madeinusa

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.

It's not like we are having daily bus and cafe bombings here, now is it. I am not saying that we should allow terrorists to do whatever they want. A system of resonable checks and balances to police the streets is needed, not an unreasonable blind faith in a single man. Don't you morons know anything about history? You could have just admitted to everyone here you are WHITE TRAILER TRASH.

I have seen some ignorant posts in my time, but this post of yours is by far the most ignorant statement I have ever seen in my life from anywhere.

You are the lowest form of human garbage to even think this way concerning the American citizens who were lost on 9/11.

It takes a pussy to say something like that and hide behind a computer screen. When you think you are a man, why don’t you go step out in public, like say ground zero, and announce the same statement. You might be surprised what results you see.



screw you moron,

you can go to ground zero anytime you want. they would rather see a real investigation of how 9-11 really happened,
they should wiretap bush and cheney.

to think you get upset over someone saying the constitution is important, yet take no offense at rotunds unbelievable statement of saying,"you should be free to let go of some freedoms to be free.".. WTF WTF are you idots not getting enough oxygen? you guys are unamerican.

if you said that in 1800, YOU would be tarred and feathered..

you goddamn tory. why don't you go back to england. you can give up your rights there in return for others...

you are a pathetic example of an american.

[remember]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.



Your disdain for the lives of those who died horribly while going about their daily business is beyond being vulgar. Since you obviously have no moral values whatsoever the most I could hope for is that the next act of terrorism affects you a bit more personally.

screw you rotund,
your sanctimonious crap, about "those people who died" is total BS.

you think those people before they died would have said, "it would be great to be used as an excuse to undo what this country has stood for for two hundred years"

not in their name, you moron.

you too, should be tarred and feathered. you fat bastard.What you stand for is unexcusable. there are no rights that should be given up for a vague notion....You are the sorriest exuse of an american. this thread was right on.

you guys have no morals, no values, no character, no integrity.... you don't have as much value to this country as a $5 hooker...
why don't you go back under whatever rock you were spawned from.. you fascist bastard.get out of america.

[Edited by remember on 12-23-2005 at 06:02 PM]

[remember]

Originally posted by big al2
It is amazing to me how a group of people can condone the acts of their group and blast another group for the same actions.

I am not a Bush basher or a Clinton basher, but didn't Clinton get in trouble for using the same sort of "private" information for personal use.
This does not releif Bush's blame. Its just that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I thought there was a set of judges in the Justice Department that could approve these types of wiretaps without publishing the info. (one just quit over this)

I wish they would pass a law that says they must have warrents within say 2 weeks of starting the investigation. That would make everybody happy and maintain freedom and trust for all.

clinton's drug czar, bill bennet, got busted for using cookies.. on people's internet usage.
is that what you are talking about?


the thing is, clinton/democrats are as bad as everyone else..
this isn't a republican democrat issue....

this is an american establishment run amok against the people issue...

the clinton years had
"eschelon", they were spying on everyone too.before 9-11, they always said it was other countries spying on us, for them... so they didn't have to do it themselves....

and it all leads to erosion of the 4th amendment...
which is inexcusable for either party...

clinton was impeached for cheating on his wife, and lieing during the witchhunt.. a technical crime, however meaningless..
this time, bush broke the law. fisa has provisions that he could have wiretapped at will, and gone to get approval later... he decided not to do it... 13 times...

that is a crime. that is spitting in the face of the law. trampling rights. a total disdain for procedure...
he should be impeached for this too.

[RoBoTeq]

It's good to know your enemy. This thread has certainly brought out a few enemies of the U.S. and its citizens. For the not so bright, I am referring to nomember and mafia.

[MadeinUSA]

Originally posted by remember

Originally posted by madeinusa

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia
A couple of buildings fall down and you pussies are all eager to give up every freedom that our fore fathers fought and died for.

Pathetic.

It's not like we are having daily bus and cafe bombings here, now is it. I am not saying that we should allow terrorists to do whatever they want. A system of resonable checks and balances to police the streets is needed, not an unreasonable blind faith in a single man. Don't you morons know anything about history? You could have just admitted to everyone here you are WHITE TRAILER TRASH.

I have seen some ignorant posts in my time, but this post of yours is by far the most ignorant statement I have ever seen in my life from anywhere.

You are the lowest form of human garbage to even think this way concerning the American citizens who were lost on 9/11.

It takes a pussy to say something like that and hide behind a computer screen. When you think you are a man, why don’t you go step out in public, like say ground zero, and announce the same statement. You might be surprised what results you see.



screw you moron,

you can go to ground zero anytime you want. they would rather see a real investigation of how 9-11 really happened,
they should wiretap bush and cheney.

to think you get upset over someone saying the constitution is important, yet take no offense at rotunds unbelievable statement of saying,"you should be free to let go of some freedoms to be free.".. WTF WTF are you idots not getting enough oxygen? you guys are unamerican.

if you said that in 1800, YOU would be tarred and feathered..

you goddamn tory. why don't you go back to england. you can give up your rights there in return for others...

you are a pathetic example of an american. Ahh, Go smoke some more of your hash you schhhhttooooooppidddd bloody wanking bloke.

[bobby7388]

Com'on, who really believe's that an Admendment is a written in stone rule? No one document can last forever as originaly written, AMBIGUITY being the issue, and yes! this includes the "Bill of Rights"
Most of the objections are over the "You invaded my civil rights" argument, and if they have you have an avenue of re-course.
Funny thing is though, most of the ones afraid of lossing those enumerated rights are the same who abuse them the most

All of the admendments have been taken literally, or interpreted that way to bolster anothers "Cause"
Though over the years they have been micro-interpreted to encompass the ever changing society and security needs by the lower courts up to the Supreme Court.

Did you know a cop only needs "probable cause" to search you and your vicinity with no-warrant? is this allowed?
article IVThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Most of the interpretation conflicts have been because of one word "unreasonable"
What is unreasonable?


So to sum up, all of these "my rights have ben violated" posters are crying wolf, no-one knows who was tapped or for what reason, but they surely will raise some of the idiotic responses.

[Edited by bobby7388 on 12-23-2005 at 10:30 PM]

[johnl45]

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy
Sick liberal propoganda! (stomach turning, nausea setting in, feeling annoyed) I get the same symptoms when looking at a picture of George W?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by johnl45

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy
Sick liberal propoganda! (stomach turning, nausea setting in, feeling annoyed) I get the same symptoms when looking at a picture of George W?

Here's sump'm else to upset ya. This URL begins with http://www. Chew on that for awhile.

[smadave]

This is WAY better than brand bashing WOW!!

Dave in NJ

[acmanko]

Hang out down here and you'll be told real quick what a SSOS you really are.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
...the most I could hope for is that the next act of terrorism affects you a bit more personally.

Spreading the love of Jesus again I see.

Nope; that is my own fallen from grace feeling about someone as hateful as you are. Unlike Jesus, I am far from being perfect.

So you have justified your hate. How convienient.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by refrigeration mafia



So you have justified your hate. How convienient.

You have a very skewed perception of justification. I shouldn't be surprised.

[RoBoTeq]

We're back on the same page booty.

[r22jjc]

there was an old fella from a long time ago who spoke about an issure such as this one,i dont recall anyone calling him a moron,,,,"they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin.

[bootlen]

What, specifically, did Ben mean by "essential liberty"?

[remember]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
It's good to know your enemy. This thread has certainly brought out a few enemies of the U.S. and its citizens. For the not so bright, I am referring to nomember and mafia.


so roboputz,

are you assuming anyone who is stupid enough to agree with your assinine opinions, is also so stupid as to need direction at who you are referring to?...
well, I finally agree with you. you are probably right on THAT assumption.

[remember]

Originally posted by bobby7388
Com'on, who really believe's that an Admendment is a written in stone rule? No one document can last forever as originaly written, AMBIGUITY being the issue, and yes! this includes the "Bill of Rights"
Most of the objections are over the "You invaded my civil rights" argument, and if they have you have an avenue of re-course.
Funny thing is though, most of the ones afraid of lossing those enumerated rights are the same who abuse them the most

All of the admendments have been taken literally, or interpreted that way to bolster anothers "Cause"
Though over the years they have been micro-interpreted to encompass the ever changing society and security needs by the lower courts up to the Supreme Court.

Did you know a cop only needs "probable cause" to search you and your vicinity with no-warrant? is this allowed?
article IVThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Most of the interpretation conflicts have been because of one word "unreasonable"
What is unreasonable?


So to sum up, all of these "my rights have ben violated" posters are crying wolf, no-one knows who was tapped or for what reason, but they surely will raise some of the idiotic responses.

[Edited by bobby7388 on 12-23-2005 at 10:30 PM]



bobby,
I agree with some of your points here, surely, the INTERPRETATION of the relatively vague meanings in our founding documents, have been the main avenue of abuse in the countries history.

but, no one here, that I remember, complained that THEY have had their rights invaded..
when I and maybe others do talk about these instances and actions where the busheviks have gone beyond the point where you can give them the benefit of the doubt;we do so because he is abusing the country and its values.
we are the only ones on this forum standing up to protect this country. and what it has given to mankind.
If we allow the busheviks to wage this war on freedom, there may be no liberty to defend in any sense anymore.

the gauntlet is:

any man who wants to even pretend he is a "conservative", had better damn well protect the constitution.

and if they refuse to do so, even in spirit here, on this discussion board. HE IS A TRAITOR.


and military service doesn't keep people from being traitors. In fact, most fascist regimes are supported by a rabidly patriotic military, where men owe allegience to the ruler, and not the laws.

where do you stand?

[addfreon]

Originally posted by remember

Originally posted by bobby7388
Com'on, who really believe's that an Admendment is a written in stone rule? No one document can last forever as originaly written, AMBIGUITY being the issue, and yes! this includes the "Bill of Rights"
Most of the objections are over the "You invaded my civil rights" argument, and if they have you have an avenue of re-course.
Funny thing is though, most of the ones afraid of lossing those enumerated rights are the same who abuse them the most

All of the admendments have been taken literally, or interpreted that way to bolster anothers "Cause"
Though over the years they have been micro-interpreted to encompass the ever changing society and security needs by the lower courts up to the Supreme Court.

Did you know a cop only needs "probable cause" to search you and your vicinity with no-warrant? is this allowed?
article IVThe right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Most of the interpretation conflicts have been because of one word "unreasonable"
What is unreasonable?


So to sum up, all of these "my rights have ben violated" posters are crying wolf, no-one knows who was tapped or for what reason, but they surely will raise some of the idiotic responses.

[Edited by bobby7388 on 12-23-2005 at 10:30 PM]



bobby,
I agree with some of your points here, surely, the INTERPRETATION of the relatively vague meanings in our founding documents, have been the main avenue of abuse in the countries history.

but, no one here, that I remember, complained that THEY have had their rights invaded..
when I and maybe others do talk about these instances and actions where the busheviks have gone beyond the point where you can give them the benefit of the doubt;we do so because he is abusing the country and its values.
we are the only ones on this forum standing up to protect this country. and what it has given to mankind.
If we allow the busheviks to wage this war on freedom, there may be no liberty to defend in any sense anymore.

the gauntlet is:

any man who wants to even pretend he is a "conservative", had better damn well protect the constitution.

and if they refuse to do so, even in spirit here, on this discussion board. HE IS A TRAITOR.


and military service doesn't keep people from being traitors. In fact, most fascist regimes are supported by a rabidly patriotic military, where men owe allegience to the ruler, and not the laws.

where do you stand?


Excellant observations...I wonder how they would feel if a do-gooder,gun-control liberal were listening in on their phone conversations for "national security"...this kind of nebulous language is prone to abuse...
Actually the preamble and bill of rights are pretty clear and it is usually pro-state,pro-establisment,prosecutorial fanatics that try to bend the logic and change the meaning of simple words...what part of the fourth amendment don't you understand?
It is also a testament of our legal strength that the laws can be changed...as to slavery, sufferage, voting rights, equal protection, establisment clause...and so on.
The modern day conservative has become a cartoon of paranoia, delusion, idealogy, race baiting, division of the populace into two camps, and fear mongoring(the lessons of 9/11) without one word about moving foward,helping the less fortunate, peace, virtue, understanding, Truthfulness.
Count on more lies and distortions from the knuckle'draggers on this forum...they live on crumbs from the big table.

[refrigeration mafia]

Originally posted by bootlen
What, specifically, did Ben mean by "essential liberty"?

Perhaps you believe that Ben Frankiln was a communist?

[remember]

I'm in the catagory that thinks the bill of rights were pretty clear too.

it is amazing how people can not see this, and concoct excuses of why it doesn't say what it says....