Help to Identify ventilation system

[Armitagej]

Can somebody please help me identify this system.

I am in the process of tying to obtain the schematics of the ventilation in my condo, in an earlier thread i assumed it was an air exchanger, however, it most definitely is not. I cannot find any sort of exchange box anywhere...

I have a variable dial that sets a fan speed and another that is a relative humidity dial. I only see one vent outside.

Can you please help me identify this system. I am at a complete loss as to what it is.

The relative humidity dial seems to do nothing, no matter what i set it at the humidity never changes in my place.

Of the vents in my house, 2 suck air in, the 3rd pushes air out.

[motoguy128]

I suspect thsi is an HRV or ERV (Heat or Energy Recovery ventilator). The unit exchanges are and trnasfers energy frmo the exhaust to to the incomming air without the air mixing through a type of heat exchanger. The humidity dial is to turn on or inscrase the fan speed to exchange more air when humidity levels are high indoors... typically in the winter months. These are nessesary in tight construction new homes.

I'm guessing the "intakes" are in the kitchen area and bathroom area, and fresh air is supplied usually to bedroom areas if it's installed correctly.



One of your intakes looks almost completely closed. You may want to open that up by turning the round part in the middle counterclockwise.

[Armitagej]

The ones sucking air in are both in bedrooms, the one exhausting air is in the living room. (the living room exhaust is the closest one to the vent outside)

Wouldn't there be some sort of filter to change in any case?

Would it be typical to not have access to the fan and whatnot? (what if the fan burns out and needs changing?)

[motoguy128]

Not the most efficient set-u psince you usually want ot remove humidity and stinky air frm kitchens and bathrooms and you want the fresh air in the bedrooms where CO2 levels are highest. Some homeowner or contractor apparently had a different opinion.

I beleive most have filters to keep the heat exchanger "core" clean. Either way, the core will eventually need cleaning so the unit needs to be accessible. They are supposed ot be located in a serviceable location. Is it in the attic? Is there an access panel above a closet. Turn the fan speed to high and see if you can track it by the noise it makes.


There is a possibility that it's jsut and air exchanger, not a HRV or ERV. In that case outside air is mixed with inside air ot temper it and it has the same effect to provide fresh air. These units are lessexpensive and may not have a filter. But they still need ot be located in a place that accessible. If nothing else, there is a junction box located on them and I'm pretty sure code requires that junction boxes be accessible... you can't locate them behind drywall.

[Armitagej]

This is my house layout.

Could the fan be located on the roof? which as far as i know is inaccessible. (it is a 4 story condo with one of the floors being a semi-basement) I am on floor 2.

I have searched everywhere for any sort of junction box and have found nothing. I have no attic, or closet access panels at all.

The fan seems to loudest in bedroom 1.

Last week i had a inspector come in to do some thermo-graphic imaging, moisture and other tests. With his fluke meter he measured 1550ppm of co2 and a RH% of 65. Totally beyond acceptable limits. And this was after running the mentioned ventilation system all day at about 50%(house fully closed up and nobody home except the cat) and turned it off about an hour before he showed up.

I have another guy coming friday to do a full IAQ test.

motoguy thanks a lot, you have been a great help so far.

[motoguy128]

Might just be installed poorly or too small.

Do you have large gable vents in the side of the house? I'm kind of shocked you have no attic access at all. Attached Garage?

Did you open that one vent that looked closed? can you feel air comming out of teh vent on the the side of the house when it's running? as well as feel air getting sucked in?


Fixing this will be very tricky without attic access.


If it were my house. I'd add an intake in the kitchen, bathroom and dining room, and use the existing vents as supplies. But just getting the existing unit working correctly should be the first priority. It could be as simple as partially collapsed flex ductwork and the one supply being closed.


Did the inspector check the hot water heater for poroper venting? Is it natural draft or power vented? (a little fan motor on top).? the high CO2 level could be from the hot water heater back venting because the hosue is so tight that when the bath fan or kitchen hood fan is turned on, the combustion gases come back into the house.


Sealed housees cna be a tricky thing and can be dangerous if not designed correctly. Unfortunately most contractors don't understand the new building codes or why they are in place. They just try to do the minimum to meet them...or at least the minimum to pass a building inspection.

[motoguy128]

Again, I can't believe there isn't a attic access in the utility closet or your bedroom closet.

I suppose there might just be a small inline fan and the fresh air comming back in is passive. In which case you might only be getting 50CFM or less which could be too little air exchange.


You sort of dead in the water until you can inspect the attic space and see where hte ducts go. You also need to inspect the attic ot make sure there is a proper fire break in the attic to seprate you from an adjoining unit to meet code.


You mgiht need to get the condo association involved.

[Armitagej]

There is one large gable vent up at the top of the 3rd unit in every house.

see here http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=UuC&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=maps+1365+shevchenko&gs_upl=3205l4339l0l4546l5l5l0l0l0l1l224l909l0.4.1l 5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1064&bih=811&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=1I9vTpKJI8T40gHM4sytCg&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CA8Q_AUoAg

i am the apartment above where it says 1365. (the one with the beige looking furniture on the balcony)

There is nothing in the garage except a few parking spaces, hydro.
the whole venting system is hidden behind drywall as far as i can tell.
I did open the vent that was closed up, it sucks air in.
Cant really tell if the vent outside is sucking air in or out, its kind of a windy area being near the st lawrence river /aquaduct.

The hotwater tank is natural draft vented I would assume, there is nothing else in that room. the inspector did not check it for proper venting. (i didnt know you had to vent one of these, he was more a air quality inspector) I dont understand what you mean about back venting and what it has to do with the kitchen hood or bathroom fan. Can you explain in more detail? (in any case, i had not used the kitchen hood that whole day, and had taken a shower early morning about 12 hours before the test was done.) (the hot water tank is electric heated)

[Armitagej]

Should the relative humidity dial turn on a fan of some sort?

[hvacvegas]

Fantech remote fan system, from the looks of it.

Atleast the inlet is.

[motoguy128]

Fantech remote fan system, from the looks of it.

Atleast the inlet is.


That's a good possibility I considered. I installed one of thsoe for the bath fan in my master bedroom. Very efficeint quiet since it's remotely mounted and powered throguh a GFI outlet so I can mount it above our stand-up shower.

Although in this case, I don't understand where the air is comming in from. A passive inlet possibly? Where is the air intake? Maybe the exhaust duct is combined with the bath fan and has a backdraft damper on it. Not a good practice, but doable.

[motoguy128]

Should the relative humidity dial turn on a fan of some sort?


The RH dial is jsut a switch. It should be in series with the fan circuit. So yes, it would turn the fan on when the RH is above the setpoint. The dial is a rheostat that controls the fan speed. Most inline fan can be speed controlled this way.

[Armitagej]

I went and asked around the condo for more info about the system, nobody has any clue. The only thing that I could confirm is that the RH dial turns on a fan in the bathroom (not the main bathroom fan apparently, because he turned off the main switch and a fan was still running, does this make sense?) and insanely the builders think this would dehumidify or even maintain humidity in the whole house?!?!? total nonsense.

I had a contractor come in today to look at the system, and without roof access he couldn't do anything and didn't charge me anything. (the condo admins are being real douches and either don't answer their phones or were asleep, what a joke, what do we pay these people for?)

I looked at what you guys suggested and the exhaust for the ventilator does not exhaust through the same outlet as the bathroom/ranged hood/dryer. I am at a loss for everything here.

Have a guy coming to do an IAQ test friday, and I ordered a co2 meter from co2 meters dot com in the mean time.

Thanks again for all your help guys, you have pointed me in the right direction.
I guess the only thing I can do is try get on the roof eventually with that same contractor, and take it from there.

regards,

Armitagej

[hvacvegas]

Sounds like a simple bathfan. If your in a condo, you might have a central unit, with your round diffuser being the inlet. When you get high humidity, it sucks it into the fan, and goes out the discharge, and all the condo inlets tie into one fan.
There is no makeup air.

I've installed them that way before, but on a much larger scale.

[Armitagej]

hvacvegas, could you explain this again ? Im no expert in this field, these hvac terms are a little beyond what i understand.
thanks.

[Armitagej]

So I finally got the schematics for the ventilation in my place, can somebody please explain the point of this system? What the hell is a air booster for? its implies from the legend that its circulating fresh air, but I just don't see how its possible without having a duct to the outside. Looks more like its just circulating the air currently in the condo. The drawing also implies that all disc type diffusers in the ceiling should be sucking air in, based on the direction of the arrows in the diagram.


All the air intake in my place passive because the only fresh air is coming in is through a grill behind the fridge. Or so it seems to me. (its connected to the only outside grill in my set of pictures in the first post) Can an expert confirm this?

regards,

Armitagej

[hvacvegas]

It would help if it wasn't in french.

Looks to me:
You've got some inlets. They exhaust air out, based on humidity inside the condo. These are powered by a central fan.
The negetive pressure naturally brings fresh air in.

Could be an ERV, or could just be a central fan system, with no attempt to recover the heat being exhausted.

But, you print is hard to read.
Not only that, it may not be the final print, or what actually happened.
Prints can change on a dailey basis on a jobsite.

I would guess that what you have is a fantech remote fan. This is based on the type of inlets you have.
When humidty is high in the space, it activates the fan, removing air from the condo. Most likely, you don't have enough operable windows, so the designer decided to have a hard piped makeup air to replace the exhausted air.
None of these require a filter :-X, to my knowledge.

Last time I installed a fan tech system, I could ALMOST fit it inside a joist space.
But you probably have a fake ceiling, and above said ceiling is where the unit is located.

[Armitagej]

That's just the whole thing tho, there are no exhausts, the only exhausts I have are for bathroom, ranged hood, dryer... Where would this system be exhausting air, into the space between me and the guy upstairs?

And the system certainly does not remove humidity from the condo. I found out the humedistat only overrides the bathroom fan. While running the system, the humidity remains constant. ( have 3 hygrometers positioned around the condo)

The system is located between 2 joists in the ceiling, but its not really accessible through the little door in the ceiling. (the ceiling is finished drywall)

I understand the whole negative pressure, but would it make sense that its behind the fridge?

[hvacvegas]

That's just the whole thing tho, there are no exhausts, the only exhausts I have are for bathroom, ranged hood, dryer... Where would this system be exhausting air, into the space between me and the guy upstairs? They tie those into the bathroom vents. Nothing wrong there.

And the system certainly does not remove humidity from the condo. I found out the humedistat only overrides the bathroom fan. While running the system, the humidity remains constant. ( have 3 hygrometers positioned around the condo)I never claimed it works. Just that I've seen it spec'd, and done before.

The system is located between 2 joists in the ceiling, but its not really accessible through the little door in the ceiling. (the ceiling is finished drywall)
It goes out one of the exhausts outside.

I understand the whole negative pressure, but would it make sense that its behind the fridge?
Nope. It posistion doesn't have to make sense. They just needed to put it somewhere.

[Armitagej]

I know for sure it does not go out any exhaust outside, There are only 3 exhausts outside, the weighted kind that only open if the attached system is running. The ranged hood, dryer, and bathroom fan all open if they are turned on, but when the air booster system is turned on, none of them open.


Anyways, thank you for you're help hvacvegas.

On another note I am looking to have a real hrv installed, could you recommend one? Venmar seems to be the biggest supplier up here in montreal. I am looking at the HRV2600, as it seems to fit what I'm looking for.

http://www.venmar.ca/en/product/root-category/air-exchangers/venmar/products/hrv-2600_2.aspx?id_page_parent=364

[hvacvegas]

I know for sure it does not go out any exhaust outside, There are only 3 exhausts outside, the weighted kind that only open if the attached system is running. The ranged hood, dryer, and bathroom fan all open if they are turned on, but when the air booster system is turned on, none of them open.


Anyways, thank you for you're help hvacvegas.

On another note I am looking to have a real hrv installed, could you recommend one? Venmar seems to be the biggest supplier up here in montreal. I am looking at the HRV2600, as it seems to fit what I'm looking for.

http://www.venmar.ca/en/product/root-category/air-exchangers/venmar/products/hrv-2600_2.aspx?id_page_parent=364

How long are you going to live there?

It might not be cost beneficial.

[Armitagej]

We just purchased it in July, I plan on living here quite some time.

Its necessary IMHO, there is no fresh air coming into this place.
Two inspectors I had come in after purchasing called it "sick building syndrome"
(the original inspector commented in his report it was an air exchanger, but he was mostly a structural guy, looking for water infiltration and foundation problems)

[hvacvegas]

We just purchased it in July, I plan on living here quite some time.

Its necessary IMHO, there is no fresh air coming into this place.
Two inspectors I had come in after purchasing called it "sick building syndrome"
(the original inspector commented in his report it was an air exchanger, but he was mostly a structural guy, looking for water infiltration and foundation problems)

That would mean that you have an building with "unusually tight construction".

How old is this building?

I will take a educated guess, this is not based by factual information, just what I've seen in cincinnati ohio:

99% of homes do not have fresh air coming into the house.
I've only seen 2 homes that have fresh air setups.
One of which, I did on a new home.
I generally have visited 100-175 different homes each year. Which means over 700 homes.

If you have a building, that is a "green" building, then you MUST have fresh air. If your in an office building, you must have fresh air to replace the used oxygen. ect, ect.

The standard home will suck air through the walls + windows.

I'm not saying an ERV isn't a bad idea. With an ERV, you can control your infiltration. I'm just worried that the added costs of: Electrical for the ERV, the cost of the ERV, ductwork, cutting holes, finding a suitable location for the terminations (may be an issue in your situation), making those holes, possible drywall repair, and painting will overcome any benefit your going to see.

I'd just hate to see you throw money down the drain.

Better investment?
Have a blower door test done, along with an energy rating. They can tell you if you actually need an ERV.

[wraujr]

Here's what I see from blueprint.
In addition to whats already been said

There appears to be a passive vent from the rear of your refrigerator to the vent on the "curved" balcony. My guess is to ventilate hot air from the refrigerator. Does not appear to be fan powered.

The powered vent moves air from your bedrooms to the living room (this based on diagram and your push/pull observations. Sounds like simple air circulating.
The fan for this appears to be located directly above your washing machine.
That said there are two "items" shown above your washer. One appears to be in Inline Fan ("Ventileleur Centrifugu"), can't read what 2nd item is (square) but part of description is 8x8..
Are there any access panels or vents above washing machine???

You do not appear to have any ducts for AC??
How is condo heated??
Do you have mini-splits on the walls for AC??

[wraujr]

Google tells me look above the washer for a "porte d'acier coupe feu" which translates to steel fire door, behind which you may find your circulating fan

[hvacvegas]

Google tells me look above the washer for a "porte d'acier coupe feu" which translates to steel fire door, behind which you may find your circulating fan

thats probably a booster fan for the dryer.

[Armitagej]

@wraujr: Heating is electric baseboard heating, Ac is mini split-system. There is an access panel above the washing machine, but its so damn small, I would be barely able to get my head in. According to the diagram though, the airflow for all discs in the ceiling should suck in.(based on the arrows in the schematic)
What would be the point of a system that just recirculates the air currently in the condo?

@hvacvegas: Can you expand on the blower test? What is it, what it would indicate? The condo was built in 2003.
Daily I am seeing what the internets would consider high levels of CO2, even the inspectors commented it was high. CO2 of 1700ppm this morning, and the air just seems thick in general.

I only have 2 outside walls, and one thing the original inspector commented on was the efficiency of the windows (thermally) so I dont think they are sucking in enough.

With the HRV2600, I would use the tandem outlet, so there would only be one vent outside. (I think that's what you mean by terminations) Would a typical HVAC company be able to make the 6" hole in the masonry?

[wraujr]

Possibly dryer, but diagram shows it connected to conduit (duct) for the bedroom/living room ventilation. There is a separate dashed line showing the passive (no fan) dryer vent.

[wraujr]

If you look behind panel above washer you should find your fan.
Yes the arrows on the diagram do indicate that the SHOULD all be pulling...
If you find the fan, mabe there is a common exhaust chimney that the fan ties in to.
The legend shows the item to be a "fan booster KS5" capable of 165cfm.
Google found it to be a Carrier part, but no picture etc.

[wraujr]

1700ppm this morning??
Is your unit directly above a parking garage??
You don't appear to have any gas/oil/propane appliances?

Wait a minute... Are you talking CO2 (carbon dioxide) or CO (carbon monoxide)??
You must be talking CO2.

[wraujr]

So, look near your refrigerator and you should find:
"grille pour ventilation" (see legend) which is a "ventilation grill"
You will see on the diagram, the evenly dashed line connecting it to the vent on your semi-circular balcony shown as "grille exterieur air frais" (see legend) which is a "outside fresh air grille".
From the diagram, there appears to be no fan, etc. so this would be a passive vent.
Depending on pressures this would let air in or out.
Diagram does not show any for of damper, valve, etc. That said, if the outdoor vent
shown as "grille exterieur air frais" has flaps, then they would only tend to open for letting air out and close when air is sucked in (albeit a very poor closing seal)
Now as a guess, with two vents pulling from bedroom and exhausting in living, you could create a positive pressure in the living room/kitchen that would result in passive air flow out of the house from the vent near refrig. It would be low air flow.

[Armitagej]

yes carbon dioxide.
Like I said, everything i've read points to poor ventilation in this place. Im just getting worried about winter coming, Its not like I can open the windows all day during winter. we regularly get -30C here in Montreal.

[Armitagej]

Ya there are no flaps on it, Its open all the time. (See first post pictures)
Its just adequate I find.

[wraujr]

Besides verifying all the vents and fans, try the following:
Make sure bathroom fan is OFF, dryer is OFF, range hood is OFF.
Turn on the ventilation fan and set speed control to high (thats the dial with no markings and turn it all the way clockwise).
Verify:
(a) Both bedroom fans are sucking air in
(b) Living room fan is blowing out
Now go into kitchen and find vent near refrigerator. Feel vent (or use tissue paper) and see if you getting air flowing into the vent.
Now go outside onto semi-circular balcony and see if you feel air coming out.

One final check, turn on dryer and bath fan and then go to vent near refrig and see if there is any air flowing in.

[wraujr]

When you measure 1700 ppm indoor, what do you measure when you go ouside on your balcony??? You need the ambient or outdoor ppm to compare against...

[Armitagej]

outdoor is 400-600ppm of CO2

[wraujr]

How many people live in unit??
Any pets??

[Armitagej]

We are just two people, one small cat.