Help needed: NYC Split system - Daikin?

[ablefire]

I live in an apartment in New York City. It's a loft with a living room and a bed room.

I currently cool the place with an 110v 11,000 BTU Sharp window unit and it keeps up adequately on all bar the very hottest (>95 degrees) days. I cool the living room during the day and at night I adjust the vents to blow cool air into the bedroom.

For heating I have electric oil heaters. I run around 3500 watts of heat in the winter and again, it's adequate for all bar the coldest (<10 degrees) days. I have a 900W heater in the bedroom.

My place is well insulated with apartments above, below and to one side. All of my windows are modern and double-glazed.

I'd like to get a split system heat pump to replace my cobbled together HVAC system so I can have something a little more automated and comfortable.

I have spoke to some contractors and the consensus seems to be to go for a Daikin heat pump system. There are 2 different system that could be used and the choice is causing my confusion. There is the VRVIII-S system and the "super multi" system.

One contractor is recommending the "super multi" 32k BTU outdoor unit with 18k and 7k air handlers for the living room and bedroom respectively. The other is recommending the VRVIII-S 36k outdoor unit with 24k and 9k indoor units.

The outdoor unit has to be placed on the dunnage on the building's roof which is about 30 feet above my apartment. There will also be a 40' horizontal run.

The prices for the quotes are fairly similar with a couple of thousand dollars difference in the cost of the Daikin equipment being the main factor.

I care about oprating costs and confusingly thing is that the more expensive VRV system is less efficient, at least on a SEER/HSPF basis.

I would like some advice on how to go about choosing between the 2 systems. What are the pros and cons of these two approaches? Both in engineering terms and in terms of end user cost/benefit that I can explain to my better half.

Thanks in advance,
-A-

[motoguy128]

How can you legally not have an actually permenant heating system isntalled in your apartment.

The size of the units they are recommending seem really big considering how little heat and cooling you've been able to use up to now. They need to do a load calculation to determine the correct size.


Do you own this apartment? I typically think of an apartment as a rented space and a condo as a property you own.

[ablefire]

In New York City most of the housing is in the form of apartments. I own my place. It has a certificate of occupancy so it's a legal living space.

The sizing has been a challenge since the contractors that come here look at the space which is about 1000 square feet with 11 foot ceilings and immediately start to suggest double or triple the btu. I tell them that the place is comfortable with an 11k unit. They see it for themselves standing there in the cool on a summer day discussing the matter but somehow it does not square with their training. They do a cubic feet calculation and spit out some large number.

[BaldLoonie]

Seems to me, New Yawkers call their places apartments where the rest of the country would call them a condo.

Does seem interesting that 11K cools the joint fine but they want to put in over 3 times that capacity. Hopefully the air handlers are variable capacity. I'm not that up on the technology!

Seems to me the Daikin will cost a fortune to install. What you have works and probably pretty cheap to run...

[hceptj]

I like the Daikin's...really reliable and not over priced like some of the other brands. Daikin is my first choice but I also install Sanyo's, which have been just as reliable and are a tad cheaper.

Find someone to do a Manual J calculation for you. It doesn't have to be from the guys that have been out, it could be a third party company or a different AC company.

It seems like they are just saying 3 tons based on a certain square footage, versus doing the actual heat load.

Any of the Daikin units will work great for you. As for SEER, you want to look at EER ratings and also COP ratings for the heat pump. The EER will save you some money during the summer months but there really isn't much difference with the COP ratings for the heat pump side during the winter.

Here's a Daikin link that shows more info on SEER/EER/COP: http://www.daikinac.com/residential/productsUnits20-energy.asp?sec=products&page=55

[RoBoTeq]

Daikin is a very reputable company, the second largest HVAC manufacturer in the world and the innovation behind ductless split systems worldwide. Also, the systems being quoted are top of the line. However, do you really need that much efficiency or capacity? My guess is no.

Daikin and other manufacturers of ductless split systems are all available for a lot less then what you are being quoted. Anything is going to be more efficient then what you are currently using, and quite a bit so. I can't imagine saving enough in energy over the lifetime of those quoted systems to payback for the additional cost of having them installed.

[ablefire]

hceptj: Thank you for your advice and for the link to the Daikin SEER/EER/COP numbers.

RoBoTeq: Thank you for your thoughts. I may be guilty of falling into the trap of fixating on numbers and brands. Perhaps I can get away with less. Both the quotes I've got have been in the $11k range with about 50% of it being for the Daikin equipment. I'm told the labor is high because I'm on the 3rd floor and the outdoor unit has to go on the roof of our 5 storie building. Should I be looking at other manufacturers? I am guessing the installation cost would not change much even if the units were cheaper?

[RoBoTeq]

hceptj: Thank you for your advice and for the link to the Daikin SEER/EER/COP numbers.

RoBoTeq: Thank you for your thoughts. I may be guilty of falling into the trap of fixating on numbers and brands. Perhaps I can get away with less. Both the quotes I've got have been in the $11k range with about 50% of it being for the Daikin equipment. I'm told the labor is high because I'm on the 3rd floor and the outdoor unit has to go on the roof of our 5 storie building. Should I be looking at other manufacturers? I am guessing the installation cost would not change much even if the units were cheaper?
I would stick with the manufacturer of the brand that the contractor you like the best prefers, just maybe a lesser model of that brand. Some of the higher efficiency systems are more labor intensive as well.