TXV hot swap

[Lawrence a]

The company I work for pushes us to do hot swaps on 410 TXV's. I'm not a big fan of doing it this way. I'd like to get others' thoughts/pros/cons on doing this.

[jpsmith1cm]

What do you mean by 'hot swap'

[dandyme]

What do you mean by 'hot swap'

X2

[Twilly]

Twilly says they steal it from one house and install it in another and get paid for it.

[Lawrence a]

Hot Swap is when we pump down the system into the condensor and leave some pressure in it so we are venting some of the 410A
They tell us that it is faster this way and we dont have to test with nitrogen or pull it down in a vacuum.

[jpsmith1cm]

Hot Swap is when we pump down the system into the condensor and leave some pressure in it so we are venting some of the 410A
They tell us that it is faster this way and we dont have to test with nitrogen or pull it down in a vacuum.

I've done things this way and can say from experience that it is t a good method.

Do I right.

[AiResearch]

If the txv is equiped with mechanical conections , such as chatleff with seals , then there is nothing wrong at all with changing the valve with say , 5 psi on the lines and evap.

Residential speaking.

This saves time , avoids contamination , and is perfectly do-able.

New drier or evacuation not needed.

Even with zero pounds , Carrier says vapor will still exit for some time , preventing air and moisture from entering. (you can see the fumes)

Also , you can easily thumb a hole with five pounds.

[BobbyBJr]

I was taught that moisture can enter a system even with pressure on the system because moisture always runs from wet to dry. I think the term was vapor pressure can push moisture into a system through a leak even though the system never loses the total charge. I will admit to quickly changing a txv a time or two the way mentioned without any ill effects that I know of.

[evilsanta]

Last time I checked 99% of us get paid by the hr. I recommend residential, commercial no matter what application pump it down, change the txv, change the drier and vac the system. This leaves little room for error. That's my personal opinion.

[R123]

I was taught that moisture can enter a system even with pressure on the system because moisture always runs from wet to dry. I think the term was vapor pressure can push moisture into a system through a leak even though the system never loses the total charge. I will admit to quickly changing a txv a time or two the way mentioned without any ill effects that I know of.

Are you saying moisture can travel from atmospheric pressure to a closed pressurized system through a leak???????? How is this possible???????

[craig1]

I've done hot swaps on large supermarket systems where pulling a 500 micron vacuum before all the food melts would be impossible and its worked fine.

Ive hot swapped TXV thermal elements on commercial and residential systems many times with no trouble.

I've never hot swapped a valve on a small split system though. The only ones I've changed required brazing and you can't do that on the fly.

I've never seen a 410a expansion valve fail yet, knock on wood.

[jim147]

What part of doing this worries you?

Then we can answer that problem.

jim

[timebuilder]

This thread contains DIY info. It should not be in an open forum.

JMHO.

[mcewans]

I've done things this way and can say from experience that it is t a good method.

Do I right.

Do you mean mean not?

[perfectionist]

never mind

[nyc]

this whole "OPEN FORUM" thing cracks me up lol

[Southern Mech]

I do it all the time commercial mostly, have run into very few scenario's in residential to be able to perform a refrigerant component repair on the ''fly''.

there is nothing wrong with this, as long as it's done properly.

[okctech]

Hot Swap is when we pump down the system into the condensor and leave some pressure in it so we are venting some of the 410A
They tell us that it is faster this way and we dont have to test with nitrogen or pull it down in a vacuum.

That can be a problem..... Do you have your E.P.A. certification? Not trying to be an a**, but venting is against the law. Keep in mind that the E.P.A. will fine your personally. Some people still want to vent that shi* into the atmosphere rather then do it properly. I ain't the E.P.A. police, just sayin...

[EugeneTheJeep]

Hot Swap is when we pump down the system into the condensor and leave some pressure in it so we are venting some of the 410A
They tell us that it is faster this way and we dont have to test with nitrogen or pull it down in a vacuum.

Done it a thousand times with commercial txvs, and a few times residential. Meh

[R123]

That can be a problem..... Do you have your E.P.A. certification? Not trying to be an a**, but venting is against the law. Keep in mind that the E.P.A. will fine your personally. Some people still want to vent that shi* into the atmosphere rather then do it properly. I ain't the E.P.A. police, just sayin...

There's one word for that.....DE MINIMIS. If done properly, you'll vent less refrigerant than you will by purging your hoses when you connect your gauges to a system. I'm hoping you purge your hoses or your introducing air and moisture into the system.

[EugeneTheJeep]

That can be a problem..... Do you have your E.P.A. certification? Not trying to be an a**, but venting is against the law. Keep in mind that the E.P.A. will fine your personally. Some people still want to vent that shi* into the atmosphere rather then do it properly. I ain't the E.P.A. police, just sayin...

It is called "deminumis"

[R123]

It wont work on a TXV that has to be sweated in though.

[okctech]

It is called "deminumis"

The Prohibition on Venting
Effective July 1, 1992, Section 608 of the Act prohibits individuals from intentionally venting ozone-depleting substances used as refrigerants (generally CFCs and HCFCs) into the atmosphere while maintaining, servicing, repairing, or disposing of air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment (appliances). Only four types of releases are permitted under the prohibition:

"De minimis" quantities of refrigerant released in the course of making good faith attempts to recapture and recycle or safely dispose of refrigerant.
Refrigerants emitted in the course of normal operation of air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment (as opposed to during the maintenance, servicing, repair, or disposal of this equipment) such as from mechanical purging and leaks. However, EPA requires the repair of leaks above a certain size in large equipment (see Refrigerant Leaks).
Releases of CFCs or HCFCs that are not used as refrigerants. For instance, mixtures of nitrogen and R-22 that are used as holding charges or as leak test gases may be released.
Small releases of refrigerant that result from purging hoses or from connecting or disconnecting hoses to charge or service appliances will not be considered violations of the prohibition on venting. However, recovery and recycling equipment manufactured after November 15, 1993, must be equipped with low-loss fittings.

[-MAKE-]

The Prohibition on Venting
Effective July 1, 1992, Section 608 of the Act prohibits individuals from intentionally venting ozone-depleting substances used as refrigerants (generally CFCs and HCFCs) into the atmosphere while maintaining, servicing, repairing, or disposing of air-conditioning or refrigeration equipment (appliances). Only four types of releases are permitted under the prohibition:

"De minimis" quantities of refrigerant released in the course of making good faith attempts to recapture and recycle or safely dispose of refrigerant.
Refrigerants emitted in the course of normal operation of air-conditioning and refrigeration equipment (as opposed to during the maintenance, servicing, repair, or disposal of this equipment) such as from mechanical purging and leaks. However, EPA requires the repair of leaks above a certain size in large equipment (see Refrigerant Leaks).
Releases of CFCs or HCFCs that are not used as refrigerants. For instance, mixtures of nitrogen and R-22 that are used as holding charges or as leak test gases may be released.
Small releases of refrigerant that result from purging hoses or from connecting or disconnecting hoses to charge or service appliances will not be considered violations of the prohibition on venting. However, recovery and recycling equipment manufactured after November 15, 1993, must be equipped with low-loss fittings.
Forgive me not knowing you EPA codes but this sound weird.
According to this venting of 410A is OK. It has 0 ODP and it is HFC.

[EugeneTheJeep]

"De minimis" quantities of refrigerant released in the course of making good faith attempts to recapture and recycle or safely dispose of refrigerant.


A pump down sounds like a good faith attempt to me, what did not pump down was the "De minimis".

But what ever, I will let you worry about it while Nasa and the US military dumps billions of tons of crap into the atmosphere? :whistle:

[mcjo tech]

Although I don't think replacing a TXV with some slight refrigerant in the system is a terrible act and defiant of the EPA rules.

I am pretty sure most of us understand that this proceedure does not fall under the De minimus guidelines of the EPA code.

[okctech]

So are you venting out of the suction svc valve or what?

[jpsmith1cm]

What about that little drop of water that you didn't see that was on the TXV?

Yeah, hot swapping valves is a great idea, if you like contaminated systems.

[-MAKE-]

Forgive me not knowing you EPA codes but this sound weird.
According to this venting of 410A is OK. It has 0 ODP and it is HFC.

So what's the deal? Anyone?
Around here you can't vent HFC:s but I'm curious what the EPA says.
In my world ODP is as much of a factor as GWP. Can't vent and need license.

[mikedel28]

All the new units I've put in with scroll compressors say in the manual that pumping down will void the warranty. Do some of you do it anyway? I always do a full evac and vac of the system...with cores pulled and the right setup it doesn't usually take too long. Maybe your company should invest in some larger hoses and a vacuum T with 3/8" or 1/2" connections to speed things along.

[Texas-Tech]

That can be a problem..... Do you have your E.P.A. certification? Not trying to be an a**, but venting is against the law. Keep in mind that the E.P.A. will fine your personally. Some people still want to vent that shi* into the atmosphere rather then do it properly. I ain't the E.P.A. police, just sayin...

just what is a couple of ounces of the great eco friendly 410a gonna do to the world. Sometimes it's more cost effective to be quick, get it done. I'm more about what makes sense.....

[AccurateHT]

In my world ODP is as much of a factor as GWP.

That's one possible difference between the USA and the much of the civilized world, 50% of our country has been brainwashed to believe climate change is a myth. Essentially anything that impacts profit is a communist conspiracy.

[allan38]

Interesting how the discussion has shifted to climate change.
The entire Montreal protocol had nothing to do with climate change or global warming. It was about ozone depletion.

Climate change is a fact. It's happened repeatedly, time and time again a large portion of the earth has been covered by an ice sheet that subsequently melted. The last glacial maximum peaked at approximately 20,000 years ago. Technically we are still in tale end of the last ice age because we still have ice sheets in Greenland and Antartica.

There have been at least five major ice ages in the Earth's past. Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes. Human caused climate theory ignores that information and acts as if the last 8000 years is all of history.

The earliest established ice age (the Huronian) was approximately 2.4 to 2.1 billion years ago. That's a lot earlier than the hot age that spawned the dinosaurs,

Get a grip, it's most likely going to get warmer and there is nothing humanity can do about it. It could also get cooler, and there is nothing we can do about it. The global warming models keep on getting changed because the short term climate changes are not conforming to the models. So now they call it climate change, you can't dispute climate change, because it's a geologic fact. Anthropogenic global warming is what the sceptics question.

[R123]

That's one possible difference between the USA and the much of the civilized world, 50% of our country has been brainwashed to believe climate change is a myth. Essentially anything that impacts profit is a communist conspiracy.

And the other 50% has been brainwashed to beleive that humans are causing climate change.

[AccurateHT]

Hee Hee! I knew that one would bring out some ire!

Whatever your view, its obvious that when you burn trillions of tons of oil, coal and other fossil fuels, then manufacture and expel trillions of tons of chemicals including everyone's favorite, carbon dioxide, there WILL be a change in atmospheric chemistry. If you feel no culpability, that's on you.

[R123]

Just because I don't believe humans are causing climate change, doesn't mean I am going around venting refrigerants into the atmosphere so I have no reason to feel culpable.

Maybe if we all quit exhaling, our C02 levels will go down and we will go into another ice age.

[jpsmith1cm]

I just help the wife in the garden to ease my conscience.

Co2 = Plant food.

[Snapperhead]

When the Earth gets tired of Humans , it will either freeze up, or heat up and wipe us off the face, and one day we will be remembered like dinosaurs by some other form of life. Deal with it.

[PhrankEspo]

Also , you can easily thumb a hole with five pounds.


Thats what she said!

[Stumbo]

I have done this once with good results. In the perfect world you would have a filter-dryer already in the lineset to clear your mind.

However, I must say, I have only seen 1 410a TXV actually fail.

[richvacr]

it you have the change the txv because it is malfunctioning possibly from debris changing the lld would be a good thing.

damm i must be slow not sure if it could change it out with presssure remaining on both sides

i guess if you leave enough liquid in the system and are not using a torch - i hate that- and have your buddy hold his thumbs over the exposed ends while you are in between his legs it might work.

i probably have bad luck with these things so i'll recover and my buddy has short arms

[ChaseAir]

I have done this once with good results. In the perfect world you would have a filter-dryer already in the lineset to clear your mind.

However, I must say, I have only seen 1 410a TXV actually fail.

Only one? I see approximately 3 per week. 410a and r22. Goodman had a terrible problem with Parker txvs

[craig1]

Only one? I see approximately 3 per week. 410a and r22. Goodman had a terrible problem with Parker txvs

I've never seen a 410a valve fail and have only seen handfull of 22 valves (on residential split systems) fail. All were 15-30 years old and all had lost the charge in the powerhead. All were working as good as new after simply installing a new powerhead

[ChaseAir]

I've never seen a 410a valve fail and have only seen handfull of 22 valves (on residential split systems) fail. All were 15-30 years old and all had lost the charge in the powerhead. All were working as good as new after simply installing a new powerhead

Do you work on residential heat pumps? Do you verify that they hold the specified superheat? Units in Florida make it to 15 years occasionally.

[davidj001]

you must not work on york/unitary products group equipment then because i see 410a txv fail more than they should

[mark beiser]

356251

[R123]

You can always tell the new users.

[davidj001]

its ok to make mistakes as long as i learn from them

[rglasgow]

And to think I read all 4 pages.

[Snapperhead]

I was into the 2nd page before noticing post date .... meh

Wheres my shovel