ciculators Vs. zone valves

[beeker455]

I have run into a quandary, a friend who installs HVAC systems prefers to run circulator pumps vs. zone valves. Our home is going to be set up with 3 zones. Zone 1, 2 bedrooms, and the kitchen. Zone 2, sunroom, bathroom, and living room. Zone 3, will be for our water-mate. If the system is running off of 1 circulator pump and three zone valves wouldn't the circulator pump tend to be on demand most of the time? Especially in the frigid northeast weather. My wife's grandfather would prefer to run the system with three zone valves and one pump due to an increase of electrical consumption from the three circulator pumps. The other down side to running one pump is it would tend to burn out a lot faster...? All thoughts or ideas are appreciated; especially since we have now dipped into the 20's in NY I really don't want the water main bursting.

[Green Mountain]

Vermont here! I understand NE winters.:(

My company is just finishing a job were we are completing the extraction of zone valves and the installation of zone circulators. So am I saying that zone valves are bad? No zone valves are not bad. But you have to know how to use them- where and when.

In order to cool a space you have to "remove" X amount of btus from the space. In order to heat a space you have to "deliver" X amount of btus to the space.

So long before you ask the question of zone valves vs circulators you have to know how many BTUs you NEED in each zone. If you use zone valve then you have to ask what "size" circulator or zone valve do I need to let enough water circulate in order to "deliver" that many btus to the zone.

In other words---Do it by the numbers!

To give you a general answer to your question. An installation using zone valves is cheaper that using zone cirulators. However if your main circulator is undersized you can add 20????? zone valves and you will still have "chilly" spots in your home. Personally I have 4 zone circulators in my recently replaced hydronic system.

Mr. Beeker lives in NY and Mr Smith lives in Virginia who needs the bigger boiler. Answer: Mr. Beeker. WRONG!

Mr. Beeker is building a well insulated 2000 sq. house. Mr. Smith is building a 10,000 sq. ft house with a big northen exposure of windows. You see you have to do it by the numbers. Get a professional who will talk BTUs with you.

[beeker455]

The Boiler is 70k btu's zone 1, kitchen 7k btu 15 lf of baseboard, bedroom 1 6,600 btu 12 lf of baseboard, bedroom 2 4,400 btu 8 lf of baseboard. Zone 2, Bath 2,300 btu 4 lf of baseboard, living room 7,700 btu 14 lf of baseboard, sunroom 5,500 btu 10 lf of baseboard. Last zone is a 26 gallon water-mate. Total 36k btu's, 807 sq ft living space.

[airconman]

either way should work. pump goes out and you only have one, the whole house gets cold, pump goes out and ya have more only one room gets cold
depends on who's puttin em in I'd say.

[Freezeking2000]

I have 3 small zones on my boiler on one pump.

[beenthere]

Zone valves will work fine for your house heating, and your circ won't burn out.

Don't think I would put the kitchen on the same zone as the bedrooms though.

And an indirect should be on a circ, not a zone valve.

[Green Mountain]

Originally posted by beeker455
The Boiler is 70k btu's zone 1, kitchen 7k btu 15 lf of baseboard, bedroom 1 6,600 btu 12 lf of baseboard, bedroom 2 4,400 btu 8 lf of baseboard. Zone 2, Bath 2,300 btu 4 lf of baseboard, living room 7,700 btu 14 lf of baseboard, sunroom 5,500 btu 10 lf of baseboard. Last zone is a 26 gallon water-mate. Total 36k btu's, 807 sq ft living space.

Okay. These are the numbers I was talking about.

So my other colleagues have given you the options. The indirect should be on its own circulator and be piped with 1" pipe not 3/4"(on the boiler side). Yes 3/4 will work but it won't recover as fast. Had this arguement many times-you might have guessed.

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by benncool

Originally posted by beeker455
The Boiler is 70k btu's zone 1, kitchen 7k btu 15 lf of baseboard, bedroom 1 6,600 btu 12 lf of baseboard, bedroom 2 4,400 btu 8 lf of baseboard. Zone 2, Bath 2,300 btu 4 lf of baseboard, living room 7,700 btu 14 lf of baseboard, sunroom 5,500 btu 10 lf of baseboard. Last zone is a 26 gallon water-mate. Total 36k btu's, 807 sq ft living space.

Okay. These are the numbers I was talking about.

So my other colleagues have given you the options. The indirect should be on its own circulator and be piped with 1" pipe not 3/4"(on the boiler side). Yes 3/4 will work but it won't recover as fast. Had this arguement many times-you might have guessed.


I agree on the 1 inch piping to the indirect hot water heater with its own circulator. Especially if the indirect has 1 inch tappings for its coil. But some salesmen will make sure you only use 3/4 inch because its cheaper and more $$ commision from profit on the job.
This really ticks me off. But what can you do?

[Edited by oil lp man on 11-13-2005 at 11:03 AM]

[beenthere]

Originally posted by oil lp man

Originally posted by benncool

Originally posted by beeker455





But some salesmen will make sure you only use 3/4 inch because its cheaper and more $$ commision from profit on the job.
This really ticks me off. But what can you do?

[Edited by oil lp man on 11-13-2005 at 11:03 AM]

And some company owners.

[Edmund Forsthe]

one circulator one flow control valve 3 zone control valves, 3 circulators 3 flow control valve 1 line voltage zone controller either way works just because you have only one circulator does not mean it will burn out faster heck if your so worried abouth that have the installer pipe in a backup system so all you will have to do is open valves so you wont miss a stroke

[casturbo]

The way I see it, multiple circulators for zone control is just fancy looking and expensive. Flo-Cheks can stick open which overheat a zone, zone valves don't have that problem. Wiring a multiple circulator zoned system is laborious, wiring a zone valve system is fast and simple. Multiple circulators are a legitimate leak point, as each circulator has 2 gaskets that wear out. Changing out a zone head is simple, changing out a bad circ is time consuming and much more expensive. 'Nuff said.

[beenthere]

Changed out alot of diaphrams on zone valves that were leaking through.

Had seals go out on zone valves also.

The wiring of circs isn't hard.

To each his prefered method. :)

[oil lp man]

Originally posted by beenthere
Changed out alot of diaphrams on zone valves that were leaking through.

Had seals go out on zone valves also.

The wiring of circs isn't hard.

To each his prefered method. :)

Me too. Especially if there is antifreeze in the system.

[tinknocker service tech]

with the size of your system it comes down to preferance only. both ways will work. i do recomend you put the kitchen on the living room loop

[Freezeking2000]

Here is my take on zoning. I find in my home my smallest zone causes excessive short cycling of my boiler. I honestly believe that a single zone per floor is the best way to conserve. Set the t-stat to cycle 2 times per hour for heating cycles. If you zone to small the boiler will not even get up to 50% effecient before shtting down.

[propmanage]

Look it depends on what type you get? If it fails:

If you get motorized actuators that screw on, then you will need to do some work while replacing it. It is built strong but needs a pumps supply.

If you use a simple clip on thermal actuator, less work to replace but not as strong. Also needs a pump supply.

If you use circulator pumps then you will need to shut the system down to replace them and pumps leak. They will supply water as long as they run; one zone goes down the others still run.

If a valve fails you can have it in the full heat possion.

If the pump fails it no longer supplies heating water. But the boiler temperature will move the water. You will still get heat if it is not to cooold out but it will seam less then ½ of what you had before the pump failed.

I did like pumps but they leak and require more work. I do like valves simple and easy.
Everyone has a different opinion there is no right or wrong. If you are scared that using one circulator pump is like having all the eggs in one basket, have two pumps and a by pass valve to switch over. Just remember to exercise that pump because it could fail if it sites for years with out bumping.

[johnsp]

A well done install would put isolation valves at each side of the pump to make change outs a snap. Get pumps with built in check valves.

[propmanage]

The system will not be efficient, also should not see a freeze up.

One cubic foot of water brought up to 180 degrees takes up about five percent less space. A cubic foot of water at 40 degrees will weigh about two pounds less.

One PSI will lift water 2.31 feet. Depending on the height of the building you would still get heat, but as the height increases the water would cool down so a three story home would be about the limit for this to work.

What came first the heat or the pump? Or is that a chicken or the egg? Something likes that.