Trane -vs- Lennox

[kcmk]

I may end up solving my dirty sock smell by replacing all of the equipment I have....AC, coil, furnace, etc. I have always heard that Trane is one of the best (at least according to service techs and Consumer Reports). Can anyone compare Trane -vs- Lennox (for all three pieces of equipment), from the standpoint of quality and longevity? The Lennox equipment is MUCH less expen$ive.

Kevin

[klabkebash]

can't talk prices on this website.. but Lennox is usually cheaper.

[warrlock]

Maybe, But...you get what you pay for. (more often than not.)

[BaldLoonie]

Everyone has their own opinion. Both brands have their good line and their builder line. Personally I'd avoid any brand's builder line and if you get a good dealer to install it, you'll be in fine shape. If you are comparing like products, I'd be surprised that one would have a price advantage unless one dealer is particularly out of line on price or doing different work.

[trey r]

both are good brands but i would perfer trane.

[kcmk]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
Everyone has their own opinion. Both brands have their good line and their builder line. Personally I'd avoid any brand's builder line and if you get a good dealer to install it, you'll be in fine shape. If you are comparing like products, I'd be surprised that one would have a price advantage unless one dealer is particularly out of line on price or doing different work.

Re: Trane, I was looking at the XL series AC, and probably the XR series furnace (as I don't want to pay the extra for the 2-stage XL). In Lennox, the AC is the Elite Series and the furnace is also the Elite G50.

Are these builder grade or not? I don't know!

Someone told me that Trane and American Standard(Trane's siser brand and manufacturer's namesake) were high on the 2002 Consumer Reports list. Lennox was listed with Carrier in the bottom 3 or 4 (out of a list of approx. 15).

Kevin

[Edited by kcmk on 11-10-2005 at 07:17 PM]

[americanair7]

Originally posted by kcmk
I may end up solving my dirty sock smell by replacing all of the equipment I have....AC, coil, furnace, etc. I have always heard that Trane is one of the best (at least according to service techs and Consumer Reports).

May 2001 - CR #1 American Standard (best Repair History), Trane #3, Lennox #6

Nov 2002 - CR Gas Furnaces, American Standard and Trane(more reliable than average), Lennox not mentioned

Feb 2005 - CR #1 American Standard (best Brand repair history), Trane #3, Lennox #10

I live by CR. Everytime I've strayed from the best ranked product, I've been bitten. Every-time. Ive got American Standard in my house and love it. Allegiance 16, 2 Stage Air Conditioner and Freedom 80, 2 Stage, Variable Speed gas Furnace with Comfort-R.

Ill never go back to single stage equipment...ever.

Good luck with your decision.

[aleric]

From what I understand you cant go by consumer reports for furnaces and the such the reports dont come from CR they come from customer reports, and most of the problems that occur come from the installiation of the equipment and not the equipment itself. I would go with either brand but I have installed a lennox g61 and a lennox hs29 in my house and i have not had a problem whatsoever I have worked on just as many Tranes as I have Lennoxs again I dont think u can just go by consumer reports

[BaldLoonie]

The furnaces are very comparable. Both use White-Rodgers controls and 80 volt mini ignitors.

Trane doesn't have an XL line of A/Cs. The "good" line is the XR series, comparable to the Lennox Elite. The XLi is the high end comparable to the Signature Lennox units.

As for reliability, I don't trust anything these days. My 11 year old A-S/Trane hasn't been touched. But in the last few years I've processed so many claims for the White-Rodgers board that I and most of my colleagues have stopped pushing A-S. Lennox is rare around here but couple weeks ago I had to order a replacement board for a recent vintage G50 that had the same flaw as rest of them. Don't worry about what CR says. Get the best dealer and the longest warranty.

[chevytruck22]

I'm not sure about the trane models, dont see many of them around here, but if you are to go with lennox, definately go with a G61, possibly the G61V. Are you looking for a cheap replacement, not the brand being cheap, but the amount you wanna spend? Or are you going for total home comfort, efficiency, noise, etc??? There are tons of variables to look at when possibly purchasing an entire system for your home, asside from the initial investment and upfront cost, i would be more concerned with the gas prices sky-rocketing within the next five years.

[airworx]

lennox is not that much cheaper. the reason is because trane does not sell builders models systems like every one else. most contractors are going to try to sell by price and will usually quote the builders model systems. but even up tranes best compared to lennoxs best i would not hesitate to say both are probably equal. i personally like lennoxs high seer systems better than tranes because the panels that cover the condenser coils are on hinges, hence easy coil cleaning. tranes units will have to be torn apart to clean and is generally why most tranes will have a lot of motors and capacitors replaced. but if you want the best system then no one and i mean no one has a better system than carriers performance series or infinity systems.

[stonefly]

yeah trane coppied the "surelight"control a year or so ago.ive seen a total of 2 fail in 5 or 6 years .both to flooded basements.that ignitor is silicon nitrite not silicon ccarbide.one you get 7 years if you dont touch it .the other dont fail.<so far>

[americanair7]

KCMC

Another difference between the Trane/American Standard and Lennox brands can be found in the outdoor unit, specifically the condensor coil. Trane/American Standard use an all aluminum spine fin coil vs. Lennox and everyone elses copper-aluminum plate fin. This is a much debated feature between all aluminum spine fin vs copper tubing with aluminum fin stock within the industry as to which is better. You will find strong arguments and heated debates on both sides.

The argument for spine fin (Trane/American Standard) is that since it is all aluminum it resists corrosion better. It is also an almost continuous loop with about 80% fewer joints than copper-aluminum fin stock...so 80% fewer chance of having a refrigerant leak. The spine fin product is also unique in the manner in which it "loads" with dirt. Simply put, it is not only efficient, but retains its efficiency better than plate-fin stock over time...significantly. Spine fin is not a new technology...its old, started back prior to Trane acquiring GE's division of Air Conditioning. Its a GE technology. And was also used in some of the first frost free refrigerators.

The argument for plate fin (Everyone Else). Its easier to repair. And that's the rub. Which would you rather have...something thats easier to repair and has a greater chance of needing to be repaired (more brazed joints), or something that's harder to repair but less of a chance of needing to be repaired and retains its efficiency better of time.....and resists corrosion better.

Seems like an easy decision, but believe me its is a heated topic among our industry.

Good luck with your decision, either way pick a contractor that has good/recent references, is insured, participates in manufacturer training (dont be afraid to see certificates or proof of training) and that you feel like you can trust. And buying a parts and labor extended warranty is also a good decision. These are installed products and will be installed differently by every contractor. Protect yourself.

[dynalowrider79]

thats how you know cr isnt very accurate amer standard is 1 and trane is 3 how can that be since they are both the same cr sucks

[americanair7]

But for someone battling with a decision of Trane/American Standard vs. Lennox, it is 3rd party documentation on responses from other homeowners. I think its a good resource for this type of decision. While a favorbale result speaks highly of product and installing contractor, unfavorable results can be a result of either...or both.

[dynalowrider79]

this is true but it does make me wonder about the site because i do repair alot of trane units, most of the time is not install fault but like leaking rotor lock fittings and the biggest thing i see is leaking condenser coils, i do see alot of bad compressors but most are stemmed from another problem like the ones listed above, now personally im not a trane man i see too much trouble with them(not the heater just ac and heatpumps) but some people swear by them but most of the people i run into are upset with their units and wouldnt buy another one again, but i really dont go to peoples house that dont have a problem so maybe thats why

[kcmk]

Trane's "builder grade" models (in both AC and furnace) are the models with the prefix "XB". What is Lennox's "builder grade" models (AC and furnace)?

Kevin

[superheater john]

If your a U.S. Vet,or citizen, I do believe that Lennox,and York are still American made. While Carrier and Trane are produced off shore. Your installer, and service tech, will make the difference. We install and service every brand and if you service them correctly after a correct instillation they all work fine. Check the warrenty, parts and labor.Especially on the heat exchanger, they are quite expencive to replace. I have really been impressed with the quality of a little known furnace called ThermoPride. They are a very solid furnace built for long years of service and offer little frills. Don't forget to install a good CO detector,too.

[mark beiser]

If Trane equipment is manufactured off shore, why do the folks at the manufacturing plants in Tyler Texas, Trenton, NJ, and Arkansas still show up for work? I think there is a plant in Iowa or someplace too. :p

Trane recip compressors are assembled in Mexico, but all the parts and casings are manufactured in Tyler, TX. The scroll compressors are assembled in the USA. Outdoor units, Air handlers, furnaces, and indoor coils are all assembled in the USA, and most of the parts are manufactured in the USA.

Basicly, there are no manufacturers using 100% made in USA components.

Fyi, when Trane moved the recip compressor assembly to Mexico, not only did they expand the number of employees at the Tyler plant where the compressors were assembled before, but acording to Trane, warranty claims on the recip compressors went down slightly.

[Edited by mark beiser on 11-13-2005 at 08:34 PM]

[wormy]

Dirty Sock is not 'brand' specific

Thats like saying my house won't get ants because its built by XXX contractor.

Dirty sock is caused by small living organisms just like
ants are living organisms.
They are not 'created' by your air cond unit.

You can put in a brand new duct system and air cond unit and you have a very very good chance of it reoccuring.

Think of it this way....
You ever blew on a dandilion?
Think of mold and mildew being very very small dandilion plants.
When air is blown across them, the 'seeds' blow all over the place. These 'seeds' are actually Spores, but they are basicly the same as seeds. They float around looking for a nice place to land and start growing. Give em a little patch of land and water em down and you've just planted you a seed ready for growing.
If you have mold or mildew in your unit or in your duct....
then you also have mold or mildew spores floating all around your house and have landed on everything too.
So you can rip out your duct system and your unit, reinstall with brand new stuff.
The spores get right back in your brand new duct and unit and start repopulating once again.


Steps I'd recommend.

Locate and correct moisture problems
Get a hygrometer to measure the moisture level in your home.
Relative Humidity levels should be between 40% and 55%
The biggest culprits of high humidity in a home that I've found are....
Ventless heaters. i.e. ventless logs
Driers leaking directly into the house (normally accompanied by light grey dust everywhere and found on filters.... home has to be dusted every time you turn around)
Driers vented 'UNDER' the house or Into the attic.
Water getting under house due to landscape
Equipment oversized
Air flow too high

Kill and treat
We have chemicals we clean and treat the unit with(Totaline 5 step for the techs wondering)
we also have a fogger where we fog the ducts and consequently the house. The chemical we put in the fogger
is an enzyme that feeds on mold, mildew, fungus, bacteria, etc. We normally leave the fogger going blowing into the return duct for a couple hours. It ends up fogging the house too, but not thick like an insect fogger.

Filter and UV Light
http://www.ultravation.com

If you do decide to replace the equipment
Get a unit with a variable speed blower.
It will allow the unit to remove more moisture than a normal blower.

[kcmk]

Originally posted by wormy
Dirty Sock is not 'brand' specific

Thats like saying my house won't get ants because its built by XXX contractor.

Dirty sock is caused by small living organisms just like
ants are living organisms.
They are not 'created' by your air cond unit.

You can put in a brand new duct system and air cond unit and you have a very very good chance of it reoccuring.

Think of it this way....
You ever blew on a dandilion?
Think of mold and mildew being very very small dandilion plants.
When air is blown across them, the 'seeds' blow all over the place. These 'seeds' are actually Spores, but they are basicly the same as seeds. They float around looking for a nice place to land and start growing. Give em a little patch of land and water em down and you've just planted you a seed ready for growing.
If you have mold or mildew in your unit or in your duct....
then you also have mold or mildew spores floating all around your house and have landed on everything too.
So you can rip out your duct system and your unit, reinstall with brand new stuff.
The spores get right back in your brand new duct and unit and start repopulating once again.


Steps I'd recommend.

Locate and correct moisture problems
Get a hygrometer to measure the moisture level in your home.
Relative Humidity levels should be between 40% and 55%
The biggest culprits of high humidity in a home that I've found are....
Ventless heaters. i.e. ventless logs
Driers leaking directly into the house (normally accompanied by light grey dust everywhere and found on filters.... home has to be dusted every time you turn around)
Driers vented 'UNDER' the house or Into the attic.
Water getting under house due to landscape
Equipment oversized
Air flow too high

Kill and treat
We have chemicals we clean and treat the unit with(Totaline 5 step for the techs wondering)
we also have a fogger where we fog the ducts and consequently the house. The chemical we put in the fogger
is an enzyme that feeds on mold, mildew, fungus, bacteria, etc. We normally leave the fogger going blowing into the return duct for a couple hours. It ends up fogging the house too, but not thick like an insect fogger.

Filter and UV Light
http://www.ultravation.com

If you do decide to replace the equipment
Get a unit with a variable speed blower.
It will allow the unit to remove more moisture than a normal blower.

Some interesting points Wormy. We have just purchased a small humidistat for our house. It stays betw. 39 and 48...but then in the Midwest this is hardly the most humid time of the year outside to be testing. We have gas logs, but they are vented through the chimney flu...and are almost never used anyway. Water under the house from inproper landscaping is a possibility...but then why wouldn't our system create this smell all year round? Your last two points are most interesting. There have been three or four load calcs done on our house. Each came in differently...one said 2-1/2 ton, one said 3 ton, one laptop calc said 3.2 ton. We replaced the original 3 ton with another 3 ton, that's when all of this started.

"Air flow too high"....please explain what you mean.

Kevin

[kcmk]

No one knows what models are Lennox's "builder grade"?

Kevin

[BaldLoonie]

On their website on the very left, it says "product lines". The Merit series are the "builder" models.

[kcmk]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
On their website on the very left, it says "product lines". The Merit series are the "builder" models.
Ty BaldLoonie.

Kevin

[wormy]

Originally posted by kcmk
[Some interesting points Wormy. We have just purchased a small humidistat for our house. It stays betw. 39 and 48...but then in the Midwest this is hardly the most humid time of the year outside to be testing. We have gas logs, but they are vented through the chimney flu...and are almost never used anyway. Water under the house from inproper landscaping is a possibility...but then why wouldn't our system create this smell all year round? Your last two points are most interesting. There have been three or four load calcs done on our house. Each came in differently...one said 2-1/2 ton, one said 3 ton, one laptop calc said 3.2 ton. We replaced the original 3 ton with another 3 ton, that's when all of this started.

"Air flow too high"....please explain what you mean.

Kevin [/B]



"but then why wouldn't our system create this smell all year round?"
The 'odor' part of it is from dead, decaying, rotting corpses of bacteria, algae, fungi, mold, mildew, etc.

During the summer, you continually feed the stuff on your wet evaporator coil and when winter hits.... no more water.
It dries up like a pond. And just like a pond with rotting fish baking in the hot sun... the crud on your coil
is doing the same thing.

Dirty Sock is alot more noticeable with heat pumps (And in some instances gas packs (Package Gas Units) where the indoor coil is upstream of the gas heating section)

In a heat pump, the dead funky stuff sitting on the indoor coil ends up cooking, baking, or in other words.... getting funky hot when winter time rolls around.
This puts off alot of funky smell.

Gas packs normally have the indoor coil section prior to the heat exchanger. They will just get the air from inside the house. I've had the dirty sock syndrome hit my unit (first summer in a rental house) after I cranked it up in the spring. The dead stuff wasn't stinking till it got wet. Then it stunk the house up real good.

Gas furnaces used in a split system have the indoor coil downstream of the heat exchanger. When the furnace kicks on, it gets hot enough to do some serious cooking on some microbial butts and they end up turning into a dusty concoction of nasal allergy funk.

Anyhow....
put it all into a BIG picture.
Summer comes
Water under house
Feeds funk
funk grows in ducts and particularly on indoor coil
winter comes
cook the funk
funk dies
funk smells like dead funk
dead funky funk funk
funky funk
They should really change the name to Funky Sock Syndrome


On to the second concern...
Equipment sizing.
Your unit is trying to remove two things in the summer.
Heat and Humidity
Sizing equipment correctly gives a very nice balance of heat removal and moisture removal.
When you oversize a unit, you remove the heat faster, which equates to shorter run times, which results in lower humidity removal.
I can get really really technical hear trying to expain it in lamens terms but I'd be here for a long long time typing. (Which I'm good at by the way hehe)

Basicly, you want the unit to RUN for as long as possible,
as effeciently as possible, to keep you as comfortable as possible.

The longer run times really throws homeowners for a loop though.
Think of it this way....
would you like to pay for the gas it takes for a Dragster to make it down the 1/4 mile or the gas it takes a
volkswagon a 100 miles??
Now put enough gas in the dragster for 100 miles.

You want "highway" miles on your unit. Not "City" miles.
Much better effeciency.
Much less wear and tear.


Anyways...
Lemme get back to the third question...
"Air flow too high"....please explain what you mean

Two glasses of tea on a porch in the summer.
One has two cubes of ice. (surface temperature of glass 50 degrees)
The other is full of ice. (surface temperature of glass 32 degrees)
The one with two cubes ends up with less water around it than the one full of ice.

So a colder glass equals more moisture condensation.

Likewise, a colder cooling coil equals more moisture condensation.

ITs better to have a cooling coil at 40 degrees than a surface temperature of 50 degrees.


The heat contained in the air passing through the cooling coil dictates the surface temperature of the coil.
Too much air flow equals too much heat going across coil equals warmer surface temperature.
Too little air flow equals not enough heat going across coil equals freezing cold surface temperature.

You want the correct amount of air AND the correct temperature of air entering the cooling coil.
Even if we had the correct amount of air...
if the air is at 60 degrees... it would equate to not enough heat passing through the coil.

ThIS also means that you could have the correct amount of air passing through the unit, but if the air is warmer than normal... i.e. 80 degrees... you end up with a warmer coil.

There is a balance between the temperature of air and the amount of air passing through the unit that dictates the temperature of the cooling coil.

SO...
Low air flow OR low temperature of air = coil colder than freezing = Condensation will freeze

High air flow OR high temperature of air = warm coil = Lower to NO condensation (If the surface temp is warmer than the Dew Point at that given time)

Keep in mind, the surface temperature of the coil has to be BELOW the dew point before water can condense on it.
Idealy, you want the coil to be as cold as it can without freezing the water. If the surface temp is above the Dew Point, the moisture will not condense onto the coil.
Think about a glass of tea with NO ice cubes. THe surface temp is above the dew point; therefore, it does not sweat at all.

It takes a little while for a unit with a regular blower to bring the surface temp down to below the dew point.
A variable speed unit will lower the amount of air going through the unit which will drop the temp of the cooling coil which will have it removing moisture in a matter of seconds rather than a matter of minutes.
The minutes you run your unit without removing moisture can add up. (Gets back into the oversized unit delima...
oversized units short cycle. Everytime it starts up, it takes about 10 minutes to start removing moisture.... now start the unit up 30 times a day and you have a whole bunch of missing moisture removal time)
Trane uses a design they call Comfort R.
They bring on the blower at half speed for the first minute, then ramps it up to 80% for about 8 minutes, then ramps up to 100% till the stat is satsified.
The first minute allows the cooling coil to drop to near freezing temps real fast. The time its running at 80 percent allows the unit to maintain that cold temp.
Carrier's Infinity system actually measures the humidity in the air. If the humidity level is too high, it will run at a lower fan speed as long as it needs to so it can keep the cooling coil as cold as it can for as long as it needs to.


What happens to your cooling coil temperature if you have a return air leak in an attic.... in the middle of the summer?


Just to add to the already super long reply muahahaha

These key factors effect the amount of moisture a unit removes...
Temperature of air
Amount of air
Speed of air
Moisture in air

There is actually a symphony of temperatures, air volumes, air speeds, and so on that we try to maintain for a properly operating system. Throw in a badly tuned chelo and it all sounds like crap.

[bluetooth751]

Originally posted by americanair7

Originally posted by kcmk
I may end up solving my dirty sock smell by replacing all of the equipment I have....AC, coil, furnace, etc. I have always heard that Trane is one of the best (at least according to service techs and Consumer Reports).

May 2001 - CR #1 American Standard (best Repair History), Trane #3, Lennox #6

Nov 2002 - CR Gas Furnaces, American Standard and Trane(more reliable than average), Lennox not mentioned

Feb 2005 - CR #1 American Standard (best Brand repair history), Trane #3, Lennox #10

I live by CR. Everytime I've strayed from the best ranked product, I've been bitten. Every-time. Ive got American Standard in my house and love it. Allegiance 16, 2 Stage Air Conditioner and Freedom 80, 2 Stage, Variable Speed gas Furnace with Comfort-R.

Ill never go back to single stage equipment...ever.

Good luck with your decision.
Trane and American standard are the same product and ranked differently. "Interesting"

Choose contractor not brand.

[kcmk]

Originally posted by bluetooth751

Originally posted by americanair7

Originally posted by kcmk
I may end up solving my dirty sock smell by replacing all of the equipment I have....AC, coil, furnace, etc. I have always heard that Trane is one of the best (at least according to service techs and Consumer Reports).

May 2001 - CR #1 American Standard (best Repair History), Trane #3, Lennox #6

Nov 2002 - CR Gas Furnaces, American Standard and Trane(more reliable than average), Lennox not mentioned

Feb 2005 - CR #1 American Standard (best Brand repair history), Trane #3, Lennox #10

I live by CR. Everytime I've strayed from the best ranked product, I've been bitten. Every-time. Ive got American Standard in my house and love it. Allegiance 16, 2 Stage Air Conditioner and Freedom 80, 2 Stage, Variable Speed gas Furnace with Comfort-R.

Ill never go back to single stage equipment...ever.

Good luck with your decision.
Trane and American standard are the same product and ranked differently. "Interesting"

Choose contractor not brand.

I thought I was choosing one of the most reputable contractors in the area, when I chose the one that installed this Trane AC/coil. Their BBB record is spotless, they had installed other homes in our neighborhood, etc. Figures I would be the one to have a problem that no one can fix.

Kevin

[kevinmac]

Even though Trane and American Std are the same product, I would venture to say there are more Trane customers than AS. The reliablility comes down to who installed them. So you can have it skewed as reported.