How many of you agree with this article?

[genduct]

http://contractormag.com/hydronics/cm_newsarticle_903/

If not what is the answer?

[thes]

http://contractormag.com/hydronics/cm_newsarticle_903/

If not what is the answer?

i'll give you my take, i DON'T like the way these schools teach hvac.they spend too much time on bs, and the students get hung up on stuff that they shouldn't. the problem with this trade is they are expecting 1 guy to know too much. duct design and layout and manuel j/d,should be a separate trade. service should be another. a lot of times a school has mandates they have to teach. there's too much theory and not enough practical application.
and as far as problems with duct, you can blame that on the builder, who sends out 12 bids and takes the lowest! if they had a code where as all new homes had to be loaded out by the architect,would be a start,you have the nec, they should have a national stardard for hvac,load calc,duct standards,etc.problem as i see it $.these schools should have internships where the students ride with install crew for a week. a service guy for a week, maybe a sheet metal shop for a week, and write reports on what they learned! the other thing is factory training is really lacking in a lot of the country, and a lot of times the training is ALL THEORY and no practical application. as far a ICP, i was at there training school when it was in leverne,tenneessee,10 miles south of nashville, before carrier took over, that was a great school, as far as this guy, i've been to some of there seminars,and all theory,no actual equipment, so a lot of guys leave the seminar with no knowledge. i can go on and on.:putergreet::pop::oops::anyone::bhave::tank::de adhorse:

[genduct]

I had the good fortune to bump into Phil Rains who is no longer with ICP. If the other Trainers were as good as he, then they had a great group of instructors. I agree there is lots to understand but I make a distinction between what you generally need to understand vs what you have to MASTER. But you're right you got to focus on one area at a time.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike

[bluebinky]

Not sure why you're posting here, rather than the pro forum? As an outsider...

The HVAC field keeps getting more complex and the skills needed increases, meaning more/better training is required to enter the field.

At some point, why would anyone want go through x number of years of training just be be the minimum wage grunt? Might as well be an engineer or doctor or whatever is "cool".

[thes]

I had the good fortune to bump into Phil Rains who is no longer with ICP. If the other Trainers were as good as he, then they had a great group of instructors. I agree there is lots to understand but I make a distinction between what you generally need to understand vs what you have to MASTER. But you're right you got to focus on one area at a time.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike

i was out in michigan for a buisness seminar, by ICP, it was ta:angel:ugh by a guy named john tudor,awesome class. i felt there school in tennessee was very good.

[genduct]

Not sure why you're posting here, rather than the pro forum? As an outsider...

The HVAC field keeps getting more complex and the skills needed increases, meaning more/better training is required to enter the field.

At some point, why would anyone want go through x number of years of training just be be the minimum wage grunt? Might as well be an engineer or doctor or whatever is "cool".

And I would like to hear your thoughts about a topic near and dear to my heart

ALSO HOPING TO GET SOME OF YOU INTERESTED IN GETTING INVOLVED AT YOUR LOCAL VO-TECHS. It gets a little lonely sometimes

[meoberry]

When I went to trade school. The instructor warned us, that if you ever get into installation and got good at it. That is where you would be stuck at. I sometimes wish I had more installation experience. But I have seen men that would make excellent techs. stuck in construction. They where not allowed to move on to service unless they quit and went to work somewhere else. It takes certain skills or maybe a knack to be a service tech. I have seen techs. that could ace a nate exam but could not figure out a low voltage short or how to find a restriction. The trade school gives basic knowledge of how its supposed to work. But as the article says technology is moving so fast. I have worked on three chillers all 1962 model Tranes. Thought I knew chillers. Then went to work for a company that works on some of the newer stuff. First one I got sent to was a Mcquay. Opened up the cover and had to set down with the manual to figure out where to start. I found it had a bad relay board but took three hours. Of course it was the relay that all the safeties tied into no customer to authorize a bypass so I had to leave the building hot. Good thing too, because following mourning the company authorized bypass. Next day a 100 ton screw compressor burnt up. and that unit was 10 years old. Newer units are all electronic. Just about every unit has its own control board nowadays and they change faster than the company trucks do. The point being there is no way to teach everything in a trade school when by the time they graduate what they know is obsolete.:whistle:

[Cooked]

I worked for both ICP and Carrier and taught classes for both. Lions and tigers and bears...OH NO!:eek: However, I taught mostly to other engineers.

Over the decades, some of the for-profit HVAC trade schools I have seen are a joke. Some of the state run Jr. colleges I have seen are far better. Plus you get the added benefit actual credit hours that can transfer to other schools if you decide you want to go a little further.;)

The bottom line, at least for me, is no institution is ever going to teach it all in any amount of time. That's what the school of hard knocks is for.

[genduct]

It takes certain skills or maybe a knack to be a service tech.
I have always thought that patience people make good service people and impatient people are meant for construction. Its a personality thing that leads you into one area or the other. Me< I didn't have a lot of patience in my younger days, so you know where I wound up staying

But I take your point, Mike

[genduct]

That's what the school of hard knocks is for.

Seem to always be working on my doctorate. Don't think it will ever end with a final white paper

Noticed you used the past tense. with your background you are the kind of guy that needs to be helping at the local VoTechs. Not trying to put you on a guilt trip (Yes I am) You have got a lot to share!

Mike

[meoberry]

I worked for both ICP and Carrier and taught classes for both. Lions and tigers and bears...OH NO!:eek: However, I taught mostly to other engineers.

Over the decades, some of the for-profit HVAC trade schools I have seen are a joke. Some of the state run Jr. colleges I have seen are far better. Plus you get the added benefit actual credit hours that can transfer to other schools if you decide you want to go a little further.;)

The bottom line, at least for me, is no institution is ever going to teach it all in any amount of time. That's what the school of hard knocks is for.

Give them the basics. Everything else take alot of head scratching.:grin2:

[luskys a/c]

When I went through the speel on the exciting field of HVAC while sitting in class my senior year and when told what this trade can do for you financially you were ready to sign up if you were not planning on going to colleage. Money? That was the Vocational schools reps. main push on getting you to sign up.Then it was a maxium of two years to cram everything they could into your brain and then it was off into the real world.

I think it should be broken down and gone through piece by piece. There is so much to learn about this field and a real HVAC trade school should be at least a 4 year endevour. Then you have the option to specialize in different parts of it making you a true master craftsman in that application.

[Cooked]

.......Noticed you used the past tense. with your background you are the kind of guy that needs to be helping at the local VoTechs. Not trying to put you on a guilt trip (Yes I am) You have got a lot to share!

Mike

I've thought long and hard about it. There is a jr. college a few miles from my house. I might even volunteer for free.

[genduct]

Luskys, i agree, 2 years is not enough time to take someone with no background and teach them so much in so little time. I think the fundamentals get pasted over at 70 MPH trying to go some where they can't get to. So I am with you about solid fundamentals and the details/ specialized stuff will unfold.

Hey Cooked, the definition of volunteer is your reward is in heaven, not here, well a little if satisfaction counts. You Texan's know that!

Hey, Where are you Dangling Wrangler?

[jim147]

Why do we still need to know all the EPA dates or what % the old equipment had to do? This is what we need to do now.

Why not teach the students how to do it right?

You might not like my answer, but a lot of the teachers weren't taught proper diagnosis and repair.

I don't feel the new stuff is all that advance in design. Split it into sections and work on the section that needs repaired. What do I care that it has four control boards on it if it has a restriction. If it has a short in the low voltage, does it matter if it's 22 or 410?

jim

[thes]

i'll give you a good example, last year i went to the TACO complete boiler 2 day seminar in rhode island, that class was a waste of time. you'd figure they would have a actual boiler set up! with a working boiler! with the new advanced controls! gues what NO, that class was almost 2 days of b.s. theory! what a waste of money. any co. that sends there guys to a training class and they don't have real equipment, you are wasting your time! this is american education system, theory and no practical hands on training. why, easy education is big buisness. is this every school no, but too mmany. i live near this jr. college there running some classes on geo thermal, all theory, the chances of people getting out of there knowing any thing is slim. i can go on and on.

[dijit]

I am a student at a community college. Good thing is we get theory and hands on because we have a bunch of different equipment. Still don't think we get enough hands on in real world situations. Best class I had was an electrical class. the instructor would show us what we needed to wire up and we had motors, contactors, etc. in the lab and each had to wire stuff up and make it work. Then we would have to rig it so it didn't work and switch stations and figure out the problem with the other guy's set up. Not really real world but a lot better than just learning wiring diagrams. We did the same with heat pumps and furnaces.

Found out that some people just don't have the mindset for trouble shooting. There was a group of guys huddled around one unit trying to find out what the problem was one of which was an electrician. They were testing all kinds of stuff with their meter. After about an hour, I walked over and asked them what the problem was. I reached down, reset the flame roll-out switch and it started right up. I knew what it likely was just by observing what it was doing. I had read the chapter about safety controls and start up sequence from the book. apparently they hadn't.

It's one thing to install, its another to trouble shoot. But I had to know the theory to trouble shoot. If I didn't know the start up order and how the thing worked, I would have been testing things and not knowing what it was supposed to be just like them. Just a newbie but it seems to me like theory is a lot more important in troubleshooting than anything else. How else are you going to find the problem if you don't know how everything works and what exactly it is doing and why? Still find a lot of stuff that I was never taught about, but if seems like if you know the theory it makes the diagnosis a lot easier.

[thes]

I am a student at a community college. Good thing is we get theory and hands on because we have a bunch of different equipment. Still don't think we get enough hands on in real world situations. Best class I had was an electrical class. the instructor would show us what we needed to wire up and we had motors, contactors, etc. in the lab and each had to wire stuff up and make it work. Then we would have to rig it so it didn't work and switch stations and figure out the problem with the other guy's set up. Not really real world but a lot better than just learning wiring diagrams. We did the same with heat pumps and furnaces.

Found out that some people just don't have the mindset for trouble shooting. There was a group of guys huddled around one unit trying to find out what the problem was one of which was an electrician. They were testing all kinds of stuff with their meter. After about an hour, I walked over and asked them what the problem was. I reached down, reset the flame roll-out switch and it started right up. I knew what it likely was just by observing what it was doing. I had read the chapter about safety controls and start up sequence from the book. apparently they hadn't.

It's one thing to install, its another to trouble shoot. But I had to know the theory to trouble shoot. If I didn't know the start up order and how the thing worked, I would have been testing things and not knowing what it was supposed to be just like them. Just a newbie but it seems to me like theory is a lot more important in troubleshooting than anything else. How else are you going to find the problem if you don't know how everything works and what exactly it is doing and why? Still find a lot of stuff that I was never taught about, but if seems like if you know the theory it makes the diagnosis a lot easier.

when i was talking about theory, i was talking pure theory, no labs, and no equipment! that's how a lot of places teach! no labs and no equipment!

[Cooked]

Why do we still need to know all the EPA dates or what % the old equipment had to do? ....You don't, with a caveat.... This is what we need to do now ....Maybe.....
Why not teach the students how to do it right? ...Totally agreed but you can't teach intuition, some get it and some don't, but intuition can be learned.....
You might not like my answer, but a lot of the teachers weren't taught proper diagnosis and repair .....I do like your answer.....
I don't feel the new stuff is all that advance in design ....It's not, with exceptions..... Split it into sections and work on the section that needs repaired. What do I care that it has four control boards on it if it has a restriction. If it has a short in the low voltage, does it matter if it's 22 or 410?

jim

And Jim, this is not a diatribe against you but I will address your points.

I'm gonna make a long winded explanation of things the way they look in my microsm of the universe. In the long golf course of my career with all the sand traps, water hazards and crappy greens I have learned 2 or 3 things, I hope you guys care to read.

With a typical student in a class you cannot know what they know. Did they grow up working on their own cars and fixing what was broke because of economic necessity? Do they have a true desire in understanding our physical world and what makes it tick? Or, are they in some HVAC class because it sounds cool and don't know a Reed and Prince screwdriver from a hammer? It really doesn't matter if you really want to know. A good teacher can see through the BS. You come to me with your stupid saggy britches and talkin' smack and looking like an idiot then I have no desire to train you the nuances of complex systems and let you into million dollar homes and businesses. You come to me with a good attitude and thirst for knowlege and I will pour my heart out. HVAC is surely the most scientifically complicated of all the building trades and it takes years, even decades, to become top gun. But you gotta start somewhere and the fundamentals are paramount. I have taught engineers HVAC theory who couldn't change a light bulb but had intimate knowlege of multi-variable calculus or could solve a 5th order polynomial without a calculator. Those are sometimes the guys designing the equipment you install. I have also taught engineers who built their own V8 racing motors. Each presents a different challenge but I always preferred the later.

To Jim, the EPA dates have absolutely nothing to do with diagnosing a system but the history and evolution of the equipment is priceless. It's provides a deeper understanding of your latitude and longitude on the HVAC map.

As I mentioned above, I don't really believe intuition can be taught but rather learned through being inquisitive. In the realm of HVAC either you wanna learn or you don't. If I don't know something I should it'll bug me to no end and I will turn every stone until I find out. Not every human is like that and that's okay. Some are artists or musicians or philosophers. You gotta go with your God given gifts.

All these newbie techs need to be taught the fundamentals if they want to even have a chance at this. They need to have their minds clear and spongelike. I remember stuff from class 30 years ago that I still pull out today. The classes you take are not, and never will be, the last word. They simply mean you have the ability to learn and inquire.

The new stuff is not rocket science by any means. Yeah Yeah Yeah, it's got control boards and communication protocols and all that jazz but you DO NOT have to be an engineer to digest it all. The control stuff is no more complicated than a modern car which when boiled down is nothing more than a bunch of parameter sensors and a glorified programmable logic controller and not really that complicated. And R22 / R410, who cares? If I can teach you one those refrigerants I can teach you a dozen others as long as you understand the basic thermo and physics.

Having said all this I must throw in the element of time. Looking back, we all grow wiser and more rounded as the clock ticks. Sometimes it seems I have seen everything under the sun but a new sun rises every morning. Our life experiences out there on the beat make us good techs capable of knocking down 100K or more.

For the new guys out of school I'd suggest a couple of years on the install crew on everything from residential to the biggest projects you can find. Find the project engineer, ask questions, ask more questions. Ask why? Ask somebody else why? Don't come off as a know it all smart ass because you went to Devry tech school or the University of Phoenix online. Exhibit humility and a true desire to know and you'll have those guys buying YOU lunch.

And if you're wondering I am an engineer....

[thes]

one follow up. last year i took a 3 hour seminar given by wales-darby. s supply firm, offices in nj/ny,they held it at a hotel training room, they start you off with a great dinner, than 3 hours of intense training which included 4 training stations. the trainer a guy named gerry, great knowledgable guy, had 2 helpers from the co. it was a controls class. i got more out of that 3 hour class than the 2 day class at TACO up in rhode island, that class stunk! a lot has to do with the teacher,lab set up, and obviously a slightly motivated class. another place where i took training was at buderus, school in new hamshire,londenderry,by manchester, 1st class good school if you can get there.

[genduct]

I would take issue with the kid talking smack.

I am an OACA member (occupational advisory committee) for the only HVAC program in Philly schools, in the most challenging school according to published crime/ violence numbers. I usually go to our meetings 2 hours early so I can be in classroom with the seniors and see what is happening. I have found that the kids that "talk smack" are the brighter ones who are bored and find interesting ways of entertaining themselves. Thing is I find these kids kind of entertaining. I have had a couple of conversations that the teacher would be on the carpet for if he were to say what I have said. I think that is part of the problem, in this world of politically correct, we are not doing them any favors by being concerned about their self-esteem and not speaking WITH ( not to) them like you would a new kid on the job. How is this preparing them for the real world?

Somehow I think you would come to the same conclusion as I have and don't think you would you would reject him because he had baggy drawers. These smart ones want to succeed and will do what it takes to fit in, once someone has shared the rules of engagement with them. I think they are hilarious, and wish I could find the time to do more instructing.

I like thes's remarks about how even he as a seasoned guy finds the hands-on necessary to really absorb the material. We are hands-on people that's why were are doing what we are doing

[luskys a/c]

I totally agree with the hands on approach. You can write and write theory on the board and most including myself will be still on page one trying to get it to sink in and process.
Now if you show me what high and low static pressure is and how to test for it and the down fall effects of it . Show me Subcooling and Superheat and what causes it to be low and high and what are common diagnosis of each. It would sink in.
There are always the kids that just don't learn as fast so when the subject and demostration is done and the instructor askes "any questions" 9 times out of 10 the kid will be to embarassed to speak up. When the lesson is done each kid needs to go through it in teams so they may speak up with their colleages or even the Instructor should offer answers to questions after class.

[Shophound]

Basic theory and a solid grounding in sequence of operation are critical for becoming an accomplished troubleshooter. If you don't know how it works, you won't know exactly what's wrong when attempting to troubleshoot.

I tell my apprentice all the time: learn how it works CORRECTLY. Then, the moment it doesn't, often the problem will jump right out and scream "Here I am!". :)

[54regcab]

I actually looked into switching from TV/Appliance repair (my current profession) to doing HVAC work. The problem is I would have to start out doing installs (like everybody else). Entry level install work is a "young man's game". Wages are relatively low, not enough to support a family on. Work requires a lot of physical labor, not something your typical 40yr old can do as well as a guy 1/2 that age. This is the reason I think you don't get too many service technicians interested in the building science aspect of things. Most started out as "tin knockers" and learned the trade as they go.

Electrically HVAC isn't any more complicated than today's HDTV's or computerized appliances. I can handle the electrical side of it. The A/C's I've repaired have all been electrical problems. I would need to learn more on the refrigerant side, I understand the theory but lack real world knowledge.

I applied at for a HVAC contractor, the boss said my "theory test" (he gave out a standard written test to all applicants) was good. I just couldn't work for $8/hr as an installer for several years until i made it to service technician.

[thes]

I actually looked into switching from TV/Appliance repair (my current profession) to doing HVAC work. The problem is I would have to start out doing installs (like everybody else). Entry level install work is a "young man's game". Wages are relatively low, not enough to support a family on. Work requires a lot of physical labor, not something your typical 40yr old can do as well as a guy 1/2 that age. This is the reason I think you don't get too many service technicians interested in the building science aspect of things. Most started out as "tin knockers" and learned the trade as they go.

Electrically HVAC isn't any more complicated than today's HDTV's or computerized appliances. I can handle the electrical side of it. The A/C's I've repaired have all been electrical problems. I would need to learn more on the refrigerant side, I understand the theory but lack real world knowledge.

I applied at for a HVAC contractor, the boss said my "theory test" (he gave out a standard written test to all applicants) was good. I just couldn't work for $8/hr as an installer for several years until i made it to service technician.

that's the reason getting people into this trade and keeping them is so difficult. :angel:

[Cooked]

I would take issue with the kid talking smack.

I am an OACA member (occupational advisory committee) for the only HVAC program in Philly schools, in the most challenging school according to published crime/ violence numbers. I usually go to our meetings 2 hours early so I can be in classroom with the seniors and see what is happening. I have found that the kids that "talk smack" are the brighter ones who are bored and find interesting ways of entertaining themselves. Thing is I find these kids kind of entertaining. I have had a couple of conversations that the teacher would be on the carpet for if he were to say what I have said. I think that is part of the problem, in this world of politically correct, we are not doing them any favors by being concerned about their self-esteem and not speaking WITH ( not to) them like you would a new kid on the job. How is this preparing them for the real world?

Somehow I think you would come to the same conclusion as I have and don't think you would you would reject him because he had baggy drawers. These smart ones want to succeed and will do what it takes to fit in, once someone has shared the rules of engagement with them. I think they are hilarious, and wish I could find the time to do more instructing.

I like thes's remarks about how even he as a seasoned guy finds the hands-on necessary to really absorb the material. We are hands-on people that's why were are doing what we are doing

Wow, genduct, God bless you sir.

After some thought, I guess what I meant to say was something along the lines of mastery of the King's English and appearance. For better or for worse, right or wrong, I simply cannot understand how someone who is unkempt in grooming, dress and verbal acuity can ever make it in this type of business.

However you have made me think even harder about the proposition of reaching out to those same kids down here, the ones who need a chance and some direction. (Dang you)

For the record I have been volunteering for food banks and homeless men's shelters for many years. I find it fulfilling.

Back to the HVAC schools. Don't get me wrong, I went to one in 1981 - 1983. I bought a set of tools, I still use some of them. The schools lay the foundation to those eager to learn. The good stuff has to come years later.

And thes, I'd highly reccomend attending every factory school and seminar you can. It will make you better.

I gotta go, I have a meeting but I'd love to continue this discussion later.

[dijit]

when i was talking about theory, i was talking pure theory, no labs, and no equipment! that's how a lot of places teach! no labs and no equipment!

Good point. Theory alone doesn't really help much. Kind of like reading a book about fishing and going fishing with someone who has never read about it but has a lot of experience. The guy with experience will probably have a lot easier time catching fish.

[meoberry]

I actually looked into switching from TV/Appliance repair (my current profession) to doing HVAC work. The problem is I would have to start out doing installs (like everybody else). Entry level install work is a "young man's game". Wages are relatively low, not enough to support a family on. Work requires a lot of physical labor, not something your typical 40yr old can do as well as a guy 1/2 that age. This is the reason I think you don't get too many service technicians interested in the building science aspect of things. Most started out as "tin knockers" and learned the trade as they go.

Electrically HVAC isn't any more complicated than today's HDTV's or computerized appliances. I can handle the electrical side of it. The A/C's I've repaired have all been electrical problems. I would need to learn more on the refrigerant side, I understand the theory but lack real world knowledge.

I applied at for a HVAC contractor, the boss said my "theory test" (he gave out a standard written test to all applicants) was good. I just couldn't work for $8/hr as an installer for several years until i made it to service technician.

Try another shop. Best time is right before summer kicks in. If you start as an installer, odds are if your good at it, you will be stuck as an installer. In the beginning small non union shops will try you out.

[meoberry]

Good point. Theory alone doesn't really help much. Kind of like reading a book about fishing and going fishing with someone who has never read about it but has a lot of experience. The guy with experience will probably have a lot easier time catching fish.

A better explanation would be: Reading a book on how to ride a bike. Doesn't matter how many times you read the book. You still have to fall down a few times until you get the hang (or the experience). Everybody remembers the first time you rode the bike the by yourself. I can remember when I did not know red was low, blue was med, black was high and common was white or yellow, brown went to the capacitor. And if you let the smoke out. It was time for another motor.:grin2: