Need to decide soon - getting cold!

[tparrent]

I am looking to replace an old furnace/air filter/humidifier with new.

I have a two bids:

Armstrong #G2D80BT150 (150,000 BTU 80%) 2 stage with General Model 1099LH by-pass humidifier

Carrier 58DLA-135-122 one stage 80%


Is there really much difference in VALUE between these two systems?

The first bid comes from the big pros in town - always on time, always knowledgeable, always efficient. Usually more expensive.

The second bid is from a local smaller company. I don't know their reputation but they have been around for quite awhile.


I would sure appreciate some guidance.


[Edited by tparrent on 11-08-2005 at 10:47 PM]

[clangmiester]

did you get any kind of itemized bids so you could compare apart from the furnaces? Did you get referances & check out their work. Company size has nothing to do with quality.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

NO PRICING QUESTIONS!!!
It's in the rules you agreed to when you signed up.

Might as well edit your post before it gets deleted.

[clangmiester]

scroll down & read the "which one should I go with thread"

[heat411]

since you are over sizing go with the 2 stage

[sadlier]

When you buy a car you can shop around for the best deal because the make and model will be the same car (aside from options) no matter where you go. No matter what you pay it will perform the same. Not so with furnaces.

Although a make and model may be the same regardless of where you buy it from, the furnaces will not necessarily perform the same after it is installed. Perhaps one will cut corners and, thus, leave the furnace with inadequate airflow. Perhaps one will not derate while the other does regardless of what the installation instructions specify. There are hundreds of ways to install a furnace but some ways will allow the furnace to perform better than other ways.

Thus it is not a good idea to shop on price. Shopping for a knowledgeable installer is the better way to go. Incidentally, better installers usually command a higher wage and may even take longer to do the job since he won't cut corners. More time at higher wage means more cost.

[tparrent]

Actually the furnace that will be removed is larger than 150,000 BTU (not sure exactly how big - mayb 165k?)

The furnace guy said they don't make them that big for home installations anymore.

Odd since my house is not all that big. I do have a bunch of cathedral ceilings though. And very leaky windows/walls.

[mayguy]

Are you planning on updating the windows????


If you are, then you are really going to be over sized!

I wouild suggest to update the windows first, then have teh Manaul J done. You'd be suprise how much smaller you will get.

I took out a 120,000 in mine, and 60,000 went in.

[Jultzya]

Thanks Y-Dot. ;)

[chapmanf]

Hey Tom,

Have you done a regression on past gas bills as I suggested a while back? Something you can do without having somebody come in and run through Manual J, and if they do you'll be able to tell if they're in the ballpark.

Manual J is based on measurements of the house and classification of wall and window types, intended to come up with a pretty good estimate of load. But don't overlook that a working furnace attached to an accurate gas meter for a few years is a pretty unbeatable load measuring instrument as long as you regress against actual degree days to control for weather. Just remember that the number you get will have a nonzero intercept (all your non-heat gas uses), and the slope needs to be multiplied by the efficiency of the existing furnace to get you the load.

Remember too with furnaces the size number usually quoted is the input rating (before efficiency factor) when you compare the size. So assuming the old furnace is 165k at 70%, that's about 116k output; a 90% furnace with the same output would be only 128k input. I haven't seen your house, but I'll be stunned if your actual load is anywhere near that much. There was a tendency among some contractors in the past to put in some enormous monster and say "there! that'll never be maxed out!"

The biggest trick in your case if you wanted to estimate load from usage would be teasing apart the usage of the two furnaces. But at least you'll get a ball park. I wouldn't be surprised if you find out the actual load for both combined is less than the one you're talking about. :)

-Chap

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by tparrent
Actually the furnace that will be removed is larger than 150,000 BTU (not sure exactly how big - mayb 165k?)

The furnace guy said they don't make them that big for home installations anymore.

Odd since my house is not all that big. I do have a bunch of cathedral ceilings though. And very leaky windows/walls.

..sounds like 4,500 square feet and 60+ years old
in International Falls MN

1. Insulate
2. Load Analysis
a brief Manual J can be done in 10 minutes
knowing window size and insulation

Infiltration seems to be an UNKNOWN but
"chapmanf" already discussed ACTUAL energy use.

3. Life cycle cost beenfit
.... $0. ___ per kW
.... $_.__ per MCF
___ for starters

[jacquelynn]

sadlier:

How does a consumer know if an installer is knowledgeable or not? I just had the most expensive company in town tell me something about sealing ducts that is factually inaccurate, and indicates that they'd do an inferior job. They have an AAA rating with the Better Business Bureau, no consumer complaints, and they've been around since 1970.

[airconman]

I always thought the better business bureau was a joke. nobody reports anybody. and second they call once a year and for $xxx we can make ya a member and blow sunshine up your dress. I'd say references make a difference.

[curry]

Originally posted by airconman
I always thought the better business bureau was a joke. nobody reports anybody. and second they call once a year and for $xxx we can make ya a member and blow sunshine up your dress. I'd say references make a difference.

Or they call you up because the a customer says he was over charged.

They seem to have evoloved in to a self serving entity.

They even telemarket for new memebers around.

They call up with the pretext that they have been getting inquires about your business and you know you haven't even done as many bids as the BBB callers infers.

[Jultzya]

Speaking in general (and not as a business owner), the BBB is a JOKE!

[jacquelynn]

Thanks, guys. I'm beginning to realize that's true.

[chapmanf]

Jacquelynn, I think your first post shows you're already going about it the only way that really works: learn enough about the work on your own, independently, that you will be able to evaluate the contractor's work and ensure that what you're paying for is really being done.

HVAC is one of a lot of fields, like auto repair or even medicine, where many customers can't be bothered to become at least conversant in the basics of what they are hiring someone to do. The trouble with that is even if you do a reference check with a prior customer, even what that customer tells you positive or negative won't be an evaluation on the technical quality of the work but on whatever else the customer happened to notice; it might be negative because a very competent install was marred by some sample defect or oddball problem, or positive because a new crummy install worked a lot better than the broken system coming out, or because the contractor had a shiny van or talked a good game. The result, whenever customers aren't really measuring quality, and what isn't measured isn't managed, is average standards of quality in a profession can start to droop, and it can get harder and harder to find a professional as competent as you hope to find. And nothing turns it around unless customers really start thinking it's worth their while to learn a little about the work they want to hire out, even if it feels a little geeky.

Good to see you seem to be doing that.

btw, there's another thread somewhere below about 'recognizing a quality install' you might want to look at.

[dash]

Originally posted by jacquelynn
Thanks, guys. I'm beginning to realize that's true.


Look for BBB members that have agreeded to "binding" arbitration,there's a difference.

[sadlier]

Originally posted by jacquelynn
How does a consumer know if an installer is knowledgeable or not? I just had the most expensive company in town tell me something about sealing ducts that is factually inaccurate, and indicates that they'd do an inferior job. They have an AAA rating with the Better Business Bureau, no consumer complaints, and they've been around since 1970. You've asked the million dollar question. I can't speak for all areas, but around here if a person speaks of Manual D and Manual J is one good indication. Most HVAC guys around here learned from their bosses who learned from their bosses who learned... you get the idea. Those that know Manual D and Manual J are generally those that are interested enough in doing the job right that they'll take the time to learn and take the time to do the calculations. If they are going to cut corners the first corner they'll usually cut is on the Manual J and Manual D calculations.

I've heard one company claim a superior product because they use 3/8" long screws rather than 1/2" screws, thus less air turbulence in the pipes. I've also heard a company advertising that installing a 90%+ furnace is like paying for 10 gallons of fuel yet spilling one gallon on the ground whereas geothermal heat pumps are like paying for one gallon of fuel but getting 4. Both claims are misleading yet the normal person would not know it. All companies want you to believe they know what they are doing; But like they say, a person doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Simply put, I don't even know of a sure test for a consumer in detecting the best of the crowd. If I weren't in the trade I'd look for those that are the most code compliant.

[heat411]

In Chicago most guys who advertise BBB are bad actors!In other words they are scumbag thiefs!

[2hot2coolme]

Originally posted by clangmiester
Company size has nothing to do with quality.

No it don't, but it does have somthing to do with price...ever hear of OVERHEAD?

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by 2hot2coolme

Originally posted by clangmiester
Company size has nothing to do with quality.

No it doesn't, but it does have somthing to do with price...ever hear of OVERHEAD?

OVER UR HEAD:
the reality of a situation
where the concept is really only understood by a few.

[jacquelynn]

Thank you chapmanf -- I agree with your points.
dash -- I've never heard of binding arbitration.
sadlier, thanks. I've called ten companies and only one does the manual J prior to making a sale -- and one said they'll do it after I pay them. All the others said they don't need to do it -- they base size on insulation, sq. footage, etc.
I'm wondering how would a consumer know how code compliant a contractor is going to be?

[chapmanf]

All the others said they don't need to do it -- they base size on insulation, sq. footage, etc.

Oh yeah, and on the size of the one coming out, like the 165k one above. Yup, that's gotta be right. :D



I'm wondering how would a consumer know how code compliant a contractor is going to be?

Hmm, well, the contractor who is willing to pull a permit before starting the work is at least planning to be inspected on compliance at the end of the job. :)

[clangmiester]

Having the work inspected still gives you no gaurantees of quality work. Most inspectors don't know how to size ductwork or systems. Nor do they care about quality. It's all about meeting minimum specifications to them. I had one onspector tell me it was OK to run #10 wire on a 40 amp breaker.

[klyons20]

Who ever provide the most warrity will get the job along with teh cheap price..

regards,
Kelvin

[jacquelynn]

Those are good points, thanks. I think the warranties are all identical.

[chapmanf]

Having the work inspected still gives you no gaurantees of quality work. Most inspectors don't know how to size ductwork or systems. Nor do they care about quality. It's all about meeting minimum specifications to them. I had one onspector tell me it was OK to run #10 wire on a 40 amp breaker.

But then, how many installations have you seen that wouldn't even meet minimum specifications? Sure, there's no silver bullet, but it doesn't hurt to have another pair of eyes looking at the work, that's answerable to you the taxpayer, not working for the contractor, and to have the contractor know that other pair of eyes will be along at the end.

It might be in a small town there's only one inspector and all the contractors have learned that he thinks 10 AWG is ok for 40 amps, but they might still not want to take that risk; some week the inspector could come back from a seminar knowing more than he did. :)