Confused in KC

[ksspartan]

Thanks to all of you that have tried to educate me on a wise purchase of equipment in the Kansas City area. In trying to learn more about the equipment that is available today market I have become more and more confused on what I should purchase. I have learned a whole new respect for you guys and for what you do for a living.

Can someone just make a recommendation. My contractors are all over the board with which features I should purchase. My goal is to buy a system that I plan to keep for a while (10-20 years) that is going to help with my utility bills. My goal is to spend what ever I need to get a good efficient and quality system but not spend money foolishly. The items I need direction are on as follows:

Heat Pump?
High Efficiency Furnace?
Both Heat Pump and High Efficiency Furnace?
Variable Speed Furnace?
2 Stage Compressor?
Which Thermostat?

If I can get direction on these items I will quit trying to understand your business. I give up! Thanks for all your help that you have provided me so far.

[2hot2coolme]

No equipment will keep it's efficiency for 10-20 yrs, it may last you 10-20 yrs, but it will lose it's efficiency.

Just like a car...

[davidr]

Originally posted by ksspartan


Can someone just make a recommendation. My contractors are all over the board with which features I should purchase.



If one of the contractors giving you a estimate is Eric Kjelshus of Kjelshus Energy, you should listen to him.

[wyounger]

Given your dirt-cheap electric rates (from another thread) and climate:

Single stage heat pump with electric backup- in the 12-14 SEER ball park. Variable speed air handler, more for comfort than efficiency. No furnace. 5" media filter made by Trion, Honeywell, or Aprilaire (also available under a laundry list of other names, so ask your contractor who really makes what they're selling). It's a good level of filtration for you (allergies?) and the equipment without restricting airflow excessively.

Thermostat isn't tricky with this setup because you're looking at two to three stages, tops, and no dual fuel. Honeywell VisionPro is coolest for gadget factor and probably easiest to use. In my book the Carrier Thermidistat is still the most technically superior thermostat, though, in terms of features and comfort.

I will even hazard a brand recommendation, which I usually don't do. For their use of demand defrost systems (defrost the heat pump only when necessary, not just by a timer) and watt restrictors on the auxilary heat (use a little auxiliary heat for long periods instead of short bursts of heat), I have a lot of respect for Rheem (aka Ruud) heat pumps.

[ksspartan]

I would love to go all electric but my concern is the ability to do it given my limitations on my electrical service. I presenty have a 200 amp service and am in the process of doing a basement buildout. That all said I feel I'm going to have to go dual fuel and gas as my secondary source. Is the high efficiency furnace the way to go on top of the heat pump? I'm finding the add to go to a high efficiency furnace is only between $400-$700. Won't a dual stage compressor save me money??? I know its primarily for comfort but it seems to me that it would also be more efficient running a 2.5 ton stage on a 4 ton compressor. Maybe running a 2.5 ton compressor longer costs me just as much in the long run?

I was told that a 5" filter is nice but for the cost of the filter (replacing once a year) I am just as well off replacing one inch filters 3 times per year at about the same cost. Thoughts?

[t527ed]

Originally posted by 2hot2coolme
No equipment will keep it's efficiency for 10-20 yrs, it may last you 10-20 yrs, but it will lose it's efficiency.

Just like a car...



why ??????????????????

[wyounger]

Originally posted by ksspartan
I would love to go all electric but my concern is the ability to do it given my limitations on my electrical service. I presenty have a 200 amp service and am in the process of doing a basement buildout. That all said I feel I'm going to have to go dual fuel and gas as my secondary source. Is the high efficiency furnace the way to go on top of the heat pump? I'm finding the add to go to a high efficiency furnace is only between $400-$700.

If the price difference is small, it won't hurt anything to go for the higher efficiency. Payback will take a long time, but if you're staying that long, there's no harm. In most cases 200 amps is fine for an all-electric heat pump, though.


Won't a dual stage compressor save me money??? I know its primarily for comfort but it seems to me that it would also be more efficient running a 2.5 ton stage on a 4 ton compressor. Maybe running a 2.5 ton compressor longer costs me just as much in the long run?

The SEER and HSPF ratings on equipment are all-encompassing. Two-stage heat pumps tend to be more efficient than single stage, true, but the difference is already reflected in the ratings. If you have a single stage and a two stage with identical ratings, they should have identical efficiency (at least as it averages out across the whole heating/cooling season).


I was told that a 5" filter is nice but for the cost of the filter (replacing once a year) I am just as well off replacing one inch filters 3 times per year at about the same cost. Thoughts?
For the cost of the filters, there's not much difference. But here are your choices with 1" filters: A) old-fashioned spun fiberglass filters, which only catch dust-bunny sized objects but are not restrictive to airflow, or B) pleated filters such as the 3M Filtrete, which offer good filtration but are very restrictive to airflow.

In my experience, many of the pleated 1" filters sold at retail tend to cave in from the suction while in use, which is just as good as having no filter at all. The air just goes around the filter. The only ones available at retail that I know not to have trouble with collapsing are the actual 3M brand ones. You'll need two filters for a four ton system, and you will need to replace them much more than three times a year... more like six if you're lucky. On the other hand, you can get one 5" media filter, which yes, looks expensive up front, and change it only once a year. So based on the assumptions I would use, the 5" filter is quite a bit cheaper on an operating basis. And given the lower airflow restriction, they even save you some electricity.

[t527ed]

5" filter in a nice fitted case lets much less dirty air get around it than a 1" filter slid into a rack

[curry]

Originally posted by t527ed
5" filter in a nice fitted case lets much less dirty air get around it than a 1" filter slid into a rack

Boy did I find that out the hard way.

[dan sw fl]

Given your extremely cheap electric rates
and moderate-to-cold climate.

Heat pump with electric strip backup
in the 13 to 16 SEER range

Variable Speed air handler,
more for comfort than efficiency.

5" media filter

I would use Lennox or Trane myself.

[ksspartan]

I need to stop talking to my local contractors. The guy I talked to today told me that he would recommend shying away from the heat pump and just get a high efficiency furnace and get a higher efficiency condenser. His comment was that I can't run a heat pump much less than 35 degrees outdoors and that I would be disapointed with the temperature of the discharge air which would only get to about 95-100 degrees. He also told me to shy away from the variable speed fan motor and dual stage condensers as they were just another thing to go wrong and when they do they are expensive to fix. This guy has spent 20 years on the service side and has just recently return back to the business after being out of it for a few years.

As you have all said my electric rates here are dirt cheap. The utility offers a .02 decrease per KWH for eight months of the year taking my existing rate from .06 to .04 if I go with a heat pump. Your thought on the comments I received earlier today????? Thanks....

[t527ed]

need to find a local contractor that is not a caveman. need one up on the latest goodies.

[ksspartan]

In other words are you telling me this guy is not up to todays standards and that latest advancement with heat pump with a variable speed drives and that I would be foolish not to go that way?

[amickracing]

A normal motor is as likely to fail as a variable speed motor. As much as I hate to stay it, no matter what you get (cheap or spendy) it can and sometimes does break down.

Get the variable speed, no seconds thoughts. Saves energy, quieter, typically better air flow (especially when going into older ducts that might not be sized exactly right), and the big thing.... lots more comfort.

Shutting a heat pump off at 35 deg is a waste of a heat pump. They can run well below zero. The point when you turn it off is determined by the BTU output of the heat pump, and the heat loss of your house. The better it's insulated, newer windows, not leaving doors open etc, the lower the heat pump can run and keep your house warm.

I would reccomend going with the highest seer heat pump and most efficient furnace you can afford. It'd be real nice to put in an 18 SEER heat pump and 90% furnace, but you don't need to get that carried away either (unless the budget allows). Get a good 90% furnace, 14 SEER heat pump, nice thermostat (vision pro 8000 comes to mind), variable speed blower and you'll be set up nicely. Oh, also check into a good filter system, make sure they have a filter thats plenty big for the size unit they are installing (maybe put in a 5" filter).

I do have to agree with him about the discharge temps. They can be a bit cool compared to a gas furnace. But with the variable speed it should be able to run at a speed so it's not creating a wind tunnel in your house, so with the slower air speeds that will occurr some of the time it'll still feel like toasty warm air.

Since I don't know that guy I can't really comment for sure, so take this for what it's worth. But if you talk to guys who don't know heat pumps or don't like them, they give reasons exactly like that so they don't have to install them. With rates in your area a good salesman wouldn't sell you anything but a heat pump.

[Edited by amickracing on 10-21-2005 at 11:30 PM]

[ksspartan]

Thanks.........I'm back on track to getting exactly what all you guys have recommended. I asked this guy how many heat pumps he has installed and he told me less than 6. Your comment seems to point that this guy does not have the necessary experience in installing heat pumps. I think I will go to the higher bid that was trying to convince me to go with the heat pump. Its back to the comment I have read in other threads. Lowest cost is not always the right answer when selecting a contractor.

[dpatty]

I have met a few people who don't like heat pumps because of what the other contractor was saying. Personally I love them and if you can go with the 2 stage systems. Personally when installing a duel fuel system I install 80% furnaces with vaiable speed when the budget allows for it. A 90%+ furnace would be a plus but I have difficulty believing you would ever see a return to justify it.

As for equipment I prefer lennox and trane myself. I'm installing an 18.6 SEER lennox heat pump with electric back up heat in my home.

[ksspartan]

I'm going to contact my contractor to see if its possible to go all electric given my existing electrical service. The only benefit I see by staying with the gas back up is the ability to switch to gas heat in the event electric rates shot up but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Our winters are a bit more harsh than yours but I guess electric heat would be ok. Any downside to electric heat over gas????

I am also looking at the high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by ksspartan
Any downside to electric heat over gas????

.. high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?

HOME COMFORT:

TRANE ... 9 more days
to Sign a contract for $1000 rebate on highest efficiency

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/XL19i.aspx

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/XL16i.aspx

http://www.trane.com/Residential/News/Rebate.aspx

T-stat
http://www.trane.com/residential/Products/Thermostats/DeluxProgrammable.aspx

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/AirHandlers/VariableSpeed.aspx

5" media filter

Buy larger than you need (with 2-STAGE XL16i) just for cooling to address Winter heating a little better.

TRANE XL16i heat pump at 17'F provides 2.76 x more heat
(C.O.P. Coefficient of Performance = 2.76)
than straight electric.

4TWX6060 with 4TEE 3F065 ( 5-ton)
54,000 BTUh at 47'F COP 3.72
42,336 BTUh at 35'F COP 3.02
36,600 BTUh at 17'F COP 2.76

4TWX6048 with 4TEE 3F049 ( 4-ton)
43,000 BTUh at 47'F COP 3.72
33,156 BTUh at 35'F COP 3.02
27,600 BTUh at 17'F COP 2.76

LENNOX provides comparable equipment.

K.C. electric rates ARE GREAT !

[ksspartan]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, if I presently have a 3.5 ton AC unit I should slightly oversize the HP to say 4 ton to increase my COP? How about the auxiliary heat? Electric or gas????

[lyork]

Well I live in Shawnee, Kansas (a suburb of K.C.) I had my Heat pump system installed by a friend of mine that does commercial heating and cooling here in town. It's a Lennox single stage 4 ton heat pump with a 92% furnance back up. And yes, he over-sized it by a 1/2 ton, you might remember some of my posts regarding short cycling earlier this year. Wasn't really short cycling in some peoples opinion but solved it to my satisfaction by installing a thermostat with adjustable differential. Heat pumps are the only way to go with our electric rates that KCP&L offer with the electric heat discount. He was saying when we originaly installed it this spring that we would set the the heat pump to run to about 26 to 30 degrees, then switch over to gas. I was talking to him just this week and he says that with the new gas prices we should of installed an electric back-up instead of gas, but that could always change. His recomendation now is to run the heat pump to about 0 degrees, but we'll have to see where it stops keeping up heating the house versus the outside temp. Now my inlaws system failed on them this summer in the heat, and they also talked to their company about heat pumps on my recomendation. Guess what they heard? Heat pumps tend to break down more, people don't like the cooler tempeture of the air and we end up taking them out, they're not really suited for our cold winters. Made it sound like they were the worst thing out there. It'll be interesting to compare utility bills with them this winter as we both have very similar sized houses and units. I had a Lennox HP26 and G51MP furnance installed, I wanted a two stage, but my friend said that this combination was pretty much "bullet proof" and he isn't always available for service calls. So if you're going the normal route, consider a two stage HP, but find a contractor that is recomending Heat pumps, especially with the new gas prices.

[Edited by lyork on 10-22-2005 at 09:26 AM]

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by ksspartan
So if I'm understanding you correctly, if I presently have a 3.5 ton AC unit I should slightly oversize the HP to say 4 ton to increase my COP? How about the auxiliary heat? Electric or gas????

Review of Floor plan with window schedule would be necessary to recommend a Specific unit. Contact info is provided in my credentials.

However, 4-ton XL16i 'seems to be' VERY Good selection for BOTH summer and winter. I may suggest even suggest a 5-ton XL19i depending on heating requirement at 15' to 25'F
in order to minimize USE of Aux heat.

15 kW ( 51,000 BTUh) Electric heat strip would likely be selected.

I believe that 5-ton XL16i using 1st stage would be slightly more cooling than the current 3.5-Ton. I am not sure if a whole-house dehumidifier (AprilAire model 1700) would be appropriate for K.C., I doubt it.

I would NOT even remotely consider gas given $0.04/kW and a higher efficient heat pump.

YOU are in a GREAT Situation to minimize your annual energy bill.
AND YOU are INELLIGENT
enough to elminate any earlier confusion.

[Edited by dan sw fl on 10-22-2005 at 09:41 AM]

[ksspartan]

Thanks Dan. I am also a HVAC Design Engineer but from a commercial side so this residential side is a bit new to me. Do you see any concern of putting my eggs all in one basket with the electric utility? With aux gas I have the choice?

I think I see what your doing by oversizing the heat pump by getting the advantage of the extra heating capacity and planning on only using the 1st stage of the heat pump in the cooling season. What do you need from me to figure the heat load between 15' and 25'. Wall areas, window orientation, and orientation of each?

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by ksspartan
Do you see any concern of putting my eggs all in one basket with the electric utility?

... I see what your doing by oversizing the heat pump by getting the advantage of the extra heating capacity and planning on only using the 1st stage of the heat pump in the cooling season.
Wall areas, window orientation, and orientation of each?



Electricity is normally available 99.5% of the time.
Emergency you may wish to use a kerosene heater although,
I would not use one myself for more than a few hours.

Furnace can not be run without electricity, so I don't see any advantage with gas. I would expect margins between electric and gas rates to increase in the next several years. In other words, I anticipate gas will get MORE Expensive relative to electricity.

Who knows .. 10 years from now?


Overall dimensions
___ ' x ___ '
2000 Sq Feet Total

__ # of rooms ________ Windows [quantity]
1. Family 12 x 16' 3'x 5' [2 ]
2. Kitchen 10 x 12' ___________
3. Dining 10 x 10' ___________
4. Master Bath 8 x 11' ___________
5. Master bedrooom 12 x 15' ______
6. Second Bedroom 11 x 11' ______
7. Bath 2 6 x 8'
8. Third bedroom __ x __'
9. Den _____________x __ '
10. Laundry 6 x 10' ___________
11. Pantry 4 x 6
12. Garage 20 x 20

Adjust above as appropriate

# of windows on each side
( U-value & SHGC is provided sometimes. Otherwise, I can base u-value on age of house and MFG.)

R-11 walls
R-30 ceiling would be a simple start.

You can e-mail me so I can return a generic floor layout via PDF which is viewable with Adobe Reader.
.. or 'sketch' can also be sent via WORD document

Comment on the drawing to be provided and I can update.

[amickracing]

This is an old house I'm guessing, not a new one you're just building?

About the eggs in a basket.... I wouldn't worry too much. If it's an old house you already have the gas line run through the house. So worst case... 15-20 years from now when gas is dirt cheap compared to electric (if it ever happens) you'll just have to change the equipment back to gas, but by that time you might need new equipment anyway.

I'm all electric now, but hoping to install a heat pump sometime soon when I start remodeling. I'm also going to run gas line through the house when it's torn apart. I don't plan on ever using it, but it's there just in case, and it might help sell the house.

[ksspartan]

I see by your credentials that your in Rapid City. Is that SD. If you can go all electric there I can sure do it here. It is an existing house and you make a good point that 15 years from now I can always go back to a gas furnace if electric gets out of sight. Is there any disadvantages to electric heat? I have always had gas heat which I guess I'm just used to. I'm also assuming my 200 amp panel is large enough to carry the additional electrical heating load. Will the heat pump and electric heat work in conjunction with one another? Its only a 2000 square foot ranch home so I should be ok according to Wyounger.

Dan.....I will work on my measurements and get them to you so you can help me figure my loads.

[dpatty]

Originally posted by ksspartan
I'm going to contact my contractor to see if its possible to go all electric given my existing electrical service. The only benefit I see by staying with the gas back up is the ability to switch to gas heat in the event electric rates shot up but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Our winters are a bit more harsh than yours but I guess electric heat would be ok. Any downside to electric heat over gas????

I am also looking at the high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?

I'm going with heat strips due to the cost of propane in my area, it cost more to use than electric. Don't really see much up or down for either so long as the meet you needs.

I'm still deciding which which zone control i'm going to use. I'm probably going to go with a 4 zone controller and put simple digital stats in each area.


One more thing to think about is your filtering system. I'm puting in a photocatalyst system. My primary reason is for removing the smoke odors. This will be the first one I'm installing so I cannot really say how well it works yet.The website to the one I'm getting is http://www.genesisair.com/index1.html

[Milk man]

If you go with a dual capacity outdoor unit, then you must use a variable speed drive in your indoor unit. The reason, Too much airflow on low capacity. And in the Kansas City area you will not dehumidify on low capacity. Your indoor coil will be too warm.

Lennox has good products.

I thought the new trend with heat pumps was not to turn them off in the winter. Even though they will not heat the house when it is too cold outside, they still will transfer heat to be used with the electric back up. Any thoughts?

[dpatty]

Originally posted by lynn rodenmayer
If you go with a dual capacity outdoor unit, then you must use a variable speed drive in your indoor unit. The reason, Too much airflow on low capacity. And in the Kansas City area you will not dehumidify on low capacity. Your indoor coil will be too warm.

Lennox has good products.

I thought the new trend with heat pumps was not to turn them off in the winter. Even though they will not heat the house when it is too cold outside, they still will transfer heat to be used with the electric back up. Any thoughts?



You can save money running them all the way down to near a COP 1. I'm not sure where most unit reach COP1 but its near 0 deg.

[ksspartan]

Dpatty,

Which thermostat did you install on your Lennox 18 Seer heat pump with electric auxiliary backup?

[ksspartan]

Dpatty,

Disregard my last question. I just went back and reviewed your previous response and figured out my answer.

[ksspartan]

I have already decided to go with a variable speed blower so my next decision will be whether I want to spend the extra money for the dual stage compressor. Your point is well taken if I was planning to go with the dual stage compressor and a constant speed blower.

If I can run my heat pump down to 0 degrees would it be true that I won't be running my auxilary heat very often. If thats the case than maybe it makes sense to get a gas furnace so that I have the option to run on gas if the electric companies choose to raise their rates to get even with the gas companies. Maybe I'm just being to cautious and should just go all electric as many of you have recommended?

[dpatty]

If you go with the electric strips option the heat pump can at the same time where as with a gas furnace they cannot. With your cost of electric this may be your best option. What happens with tis is the heat strips will just act like the last stage heat. this would make your heating seamless you may never realize they were on.

Although I like the Lennox, Trane/AS make comparable units and are of high quality. Carrier/Byant makes comparable units as well but have never delt with them to know about the quality, the infinity controler does sound nice. There may be others out there but those seem to be the best known. Just be sure to hire a good contractor to install it and I'm sure you will be fine

It's funny, I'm surrounded by power plants and I pay quite a bit more for electricity.

[james mo]

Choose your thermostat carefully as staging becomes very important with the systems you are looking at. Some programmable thermostats will immediately bring on auxiliary heat when recovering from a set back period. If you are going all electric, I would suggest a non programmable thermostat with a .5 degree differential for auxiliary heat so the thermostat will keep the indoor temperature close to desired setpoint when the heat pump is losing ground. Set it and forget it. A mechanical 3 degree differential thermostat will bump the heat strips on and off to maintain the differential if the heat pump cannot satisfy the call for heat when it is below say 15 degrees. This creates an uncomfortable house whose heating system runs constantly.

[amickracing]

I've always been an American Standard/Trane guy myself, but I will admit that other brands are just as good (but likely not better).

You can run the heat pump no matter the temp, they will all produce heat well below the coldest temp you'll ever see (and colder than the coldest temp I'll ever see here in South Dakota too). Typically the HP will keep running, cycling the strips on and off as needed. If you have a 2 stage HP 1st stage will likely run most of the time once it gets cold enough for a coat, cycling 2nd stage as needed. Once it gets even colder then 2nd stage will keep running and cycle the strips.

If you use a gas furnace for back up, once it gets around the temp where the heat pump cant keep up, it shuts off and you run off of the furnace only. Not that it's a bad thing, but the whole reason of having a heat pump (efficiency) goes away when the furnace is on.

Unless you have a really wierdly wired house, a 200 amp box will be more than enough to run everything. Usually 30-40 amps for the outdoor unit. Around the same or slighty more for the heat strips and you're set.

One thing to keep in mind though, if you're switching to all electric you'll need to get an electric water heater and stove if you don't have one already.

[ksspartan]

I have an electric stove already. Why can't I continue to run my water heater with the gas?????

[amickracing]

Well, you could..... but if you go all electric you can't.. *not beating a dead horse lol*

In my area to get a good rate on the electrical you can't run gas for anything. I dunno why, but I guess it's thier way to corner the market.

The one thing to look out for if you continue to run the water heater off gas is the venting for it. It might have to have a chimney liner installed to make it continue to vent properly.

Sorry bout the confusion :)

[ksspartan]

My vent for my gas furnace and water heater run directly through my attic to a roof vent. Do you see any problem with this if I indeed decide to go all electric with the furnace.

I will check with my utility to see if I have to go "all" electric to catch any breaks. My understanding is that all I have to do is go to an electric heat pump and I will get the break.