View Full Version : Trane vs Carrier (heatpump guru)
gardenelf
10-16-2005, 10:59 AM
heatpump guru...thank you for bringing up Carrier...I am currently comparing Carrier against Trane, and I must say the Puron is making me wanting to by a Carrier system, nobody can beat it....any thoughts out there? Ya'll are so smart, great thanks to ya'll...
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
10-16-2005, 11:24 AM
Trane has 410A heat pumps which are the same.
Don't compare brands, but installing companies.
That will make the difference!
gardenelf
10-16-2005, 11:38 AM
I am also comparing the few contractor/dealers we have in our area; The few ones the manufactors recommended. There aren't many "Pros" in our area.
RoBoTeq
10-16-2005, 08:07 PM
See if you can get "selfemployed" to respond. I don't know if he is near you, but he is in North Carolina.
gardenelf
10-16-2005, 08:12 PM
allright, I'll try..all help is greatly appreciated.
heatpumpguru
10-16-2005, 08:37 PM
Trane makes a good heat pump,and I know many think all I sell is Carrier,WRONG I sell what is best for the job. My father has XL16i with XV90 and father in law has 3 XL1800.I like the Infinity setup,I could have gotten either and no cost for my own home and I took the Carrier(I gave my Ground source to the vo-tech to train the guys on it)I think the XL or 38Y ?? are both fine products, some people it is better to have a roof to keep stuff out of outdoor units,Trane some like the Infinity set-up.The variable speed is a MUST!!Trane model numbers for outdoor 410a(PURON)begin with the number four,R-22 or FREON start with the number 2.
gardenelf
10-16-2005, 08:43 PM
I looked into getting an Infinity installed but the Salesperson said it is to big for my little house, I would need only a 2.5 heatpump and the Infinity system comes in 3 and 4 ton. So he has recommended the Perfomance series, Model 38 YXA and Fan Coil FV4.
heatpumpguru
10-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Both good you can put in Thermidistat control with that set up,SWEET. but a Trane 4ttx4030\4TEE fan coil is a good product also.They are both BIG on the outdoor side so make sure you can fit it or hide it.As we said GOOD PRODUCT does not count installed poorly. Please change lineset!
gardenelf
10-17-2005, 12:35 PM
Hey, Yellow Dot...GitErDone...hahaha...only somebody from N.C. can say that....You are not so far away from me....can you recommend a reputable installing company...since you know that will make the difference and I totally agree with ya'll.
peytonc2682
10-18-2005, 05:34 PM
The Carrier Infinity in a 3 ton will run at 50% or 1.5 tons most of the time, and it will not be oversized. Since they are two stage systems, there is no point in manufactoring them in half ton systems.
heatpumpguru
10-18-2005, 07:30 PM
Peton speaks the TRUTH,
BobbyBJr
10-18-2005, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by peytonc2682
The Carrier Infinity in a 3 ton will run at 50% or 1.5 tons most of the time, and it will not be oversized. Since they are two stage systems, there is no point in manufactoring them in half ton systems.
That is what I was thinking when I read that post too. I think some contractors are just afraid of the new technologies and try to stay away from them as much as they can.
Bobby
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
10-18-2005, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by gardenelf
Hey, Yellow Dot...GitErDone...hahaha...only somebody from N.C. can say that....You are not so far away from me....can you recommend a reputable installing company...since you know that will make the difference and I totally agree with ya'll.
Where do you live?
gardenelf
10-18-2005, 08:21 PM
Sanford Area (between Sanford and Fayetteville)
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
10-18-2005, 10:18 PM
I'll ask my Trane rep for a recomendation tomorrow.
docholiday
10-19-2005, 12:48 AM
the problem with 50% Capacity is poor latent capacity... that 3 ton will only give you about 980 btuhs latent when on low speed at nominal cfm.
gardenelf
10-19-2005, 07:49 AM
Yellow Dot, thank you, I am getting sooooo frustrated with this whole process. We have only one recommended Trane dealer in our area and after waiting on him for a day, he decided not to come out at all for an estimate because "they" are to backed up...well, if all fails I break a hole in the wall stick a pipe in it and heat my house with a good old wood burning stove.GitErDone..LOL.
Doc, you lost me, I don't know what latent capacity is, I'll have to look it up.
Peytonc..the carrier sales guy told me the Performance HP 2.5 ton is a 1 stage/speed compressor and he felt like it wouldn't make much sense to spend so much more money on the Infinity system, since the Performance Series will do just fine for my needs, afterall my house is only 1300 sq.ft...I really don't know, I thougt I had it all figured out. Trying to find the right install company is really kicking my butt.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
10-19-2005, 08:13 AM
How far are you from Raleigh?
I can come down for an estimate if its within 1 hour or so.
If the drive is in the 1 hour range, there may be a small additional charge for driving if you want us to do the work.
Estimates are free.
Originally posted by docholiday
the problem with 50% Capacity is poor latent capacity... that 3 ton will only give you about 980 btuhs latent when on low speed at nominal cfm.
What is the cfm in low speed for that three ton?Isn't it important to the latent?
gardenelf
10-19-2005, 10:12 AM
Yellow Dot..Mapquest estimates a travel time of 80 min. and 57.1 miles, taking US I straight into Raleigh, rekken it depends on where you are located give or take a few more miles and minutes. My neighbor drives to the North Side of Raleigh every day and he takes 421 through Lillington,I would have to look into this route. With gas prices that high and such a long distance, rekken we could work out something. I had a company deliver rocks from Wake Forest before and they fuzzed about the distance and I ended up paying a hefty delivery charge. I am ready to get some work started...
peytonc2682
10-19-2005, 01:03 PM
yellow dot, you will be more than happy with the performance series. It is a very fine system. It is the majority of what we install.
Dash- a carrier air-handler, if all setting are set to normal, will decrease the CFM to 50% in low stage. so given its a 3 ton unit, 350cfm (normal cfm on carrier) x 3= 1050CFM on high speed and 525cfm on low speed.
Originally posted by peytonc2682
yellow dot, you will be more than happy with the performance series. It is a very fine system. It is the majority of what we install.
Dash- a carrier air-handler, if all setting are set to normal, will decrease the CFM to 50% in low stage. so given its a 3 ton unit, 350cfm (normal cfm on carrier) x 3= 1050CFM on high speed and 525cfm on low speed.
And even further if in a dehumidification mode.
One problem is Carrier doesn't print capacities at those cfms.
[Edited by dash on 10-19-2005 at 02:09 PM]
peytonc2682
10-19-2005, 01:59 PM
I believe that Dehum. is 80% of normal, which would be 840CFM in 2nd stage and 420 in 1st stage. Even though that sounds low, you have to view it as a 1.5 ton unit while in 1st stage; then it makes more sense.
docholiday
10-19-2005, 01:59 PM
Dash,
Maybe I mistated or failed to explain.
If you have a 3 ton coil and only flow the refrigerant volume for 1.5 tons the bypass factor on the coil is increased. Lowering the airflow will help maintain a colder coil but it also reduces the overall capcity giving you lower than the 1.5 tons. Yes, it may help with the latent (humidity for the OP) but it's more of an adjustment to the SHR than an actual increase in latent capacity.
Remember, for the systems that simply install oversized indoor coils for SEER points that have poor latent capacity is in reality all that is done when you shift to 50%. You got a 3 ton coil on a 1.5 ton system.
Now, I'm not busting on 2 stage, I think it's great. What I am suggesting however is considering priority on what is important from job to job. And matching the proper equipement and installation to the individual job.
I agree,but I think your off on what the latent will be,at nominal and more importantly lower cfms per ton.
docholiday
10-19-2005, 05:58 PM
So what would they be?
Dont get me wrong here but that was from the Carrier product data sheet for the 3 ton 18 seer unit. it may have been 995 but it was below 1000. No I didnt just recently look it up, I remember it from an earlier post.
There are also other issues. For instance, lets say we have a 3 ton system with ductwork designed for 1200 cfm at a total static of around .4" (not friction). What happens to the static when I reduce the airflow to 450 cfm? It goes in the dump. When that happens, unless you are zoned, you have very little control of where that air goes. Odds are your total static will fall below .1".
I just dont think a 50% system has the ability to perform in comfort to a 70% 1st stage.
mark beiser
10-19-2005, 07:08 PM
The latent capacity in 1st stage of 2 stage systems is low. It usually is not a problem because, if sized correctly, the system runs long enough that more total moisture is removed than a single stage system would remove in the same time frame with its shorter on cycles.
The low latent capacity of 2 stage systems is the reason it is very bad practice to oversize 2 stage systems. The system needs to be matched to the peak load based on the 2nd stage capacity of the system, just like you would match a single stage system.
1st Stage ,600 cfms,95° OD,75°ID,63°WB;16,000 total,13,580 sensible,2420 latent.
We know it runs at lower cfms ,but don't have published capacities ,which hopefully will be forthcoming in the near future.
The run time difference in low ,while in a dehum mode,is what may make the difference ,between which is better,70% or 50% for 1st stage.I don't have the answer,but we have hundreds of two stage Carriers installed ,and no complaints about indoor humidity .
docholiday
10-21-2005, 12:13 AM
I cant remember which spec I looked at, its been a while so I will stand corrected (for now) :)
gardenelf
10-21-2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Yellow dot...
I can come down for an estimate if its within 1 hour or so.
If the drive is in the 1 hour range, there may be a small additional charge for driving if you want us to do the work.
Estimates are free.
__________________
GitErDone
Hello Yellow dot, just wondering if you made up your mind and if you are able to come down for an estimate? Thank you.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
10-21-2005, 02:34 PM
Give us a call and ask for Renee. 919-754-8686
Tell her I told you to call. My name is Shaun.
Have her schedule for Tuesday afternoon or after.
serv it
10-21-2005, 04:01 PM
That difference in Trane or Carrier is little. It is what
you want. The installer is going to make the big difference. 410 is 410. The thermidistat is what will help you with the effiency. Also check the rebates. I think Carrier has a great deals going on NOw.
gardenelf
10-21-2005, 04:30 PM
Thank you Yellow dot...I'll call and schedule an appointment.
Servit..you are right!..Carrier and Trane offer nice rebates right now, depending on what system you purchase you can save up to $ 1000.
Thank ya'll for your help. If you want I'll send some pics and let you know how things went.
Carnak
10-21-2005, 05:26 PM
never mind was a dumb question
fredames
10-21-2005, 10:18 PM
Hello -
I am trying to find some information on what we need to do to replace our failing residental HVAC system. Here is what is going on - does anyone have any comments or advice?
My wife and I moved to Raleigh, North Carolina nearly three years ago. Our home has a 15 year-old, 3-ton outdoor Trane HVAC unit – the kind that both heats and cools. We replaced the rusted out heat exchanger soon after we moved in, but now the A/C coil has gone out. They are rusting through and freon escapes, causing the coils to ice up.
Our HVAC guy has told us that replacing the entire unit will probably be the best thing for us to do because the cost to replace the coil (and condenser, which we would do at the same time because it is probably going to go soon, too) would be 2/3 or more of the cost of a replacement unit. We finished off the attic and thus added space; we probably need to move up to a 3.5 ton unit (the house now has about 2,250 square feet of living space). From what little I know about SEER, I guess we are looking at a SEER 13 Trane or Lennox unit. We really like our HVAC guy, and as he is a Lennox dealer that may well be what we wind up with. But...
We don’t know anything about this stuff. We don’t know if we should get (a) just a heat pump or (b) a combination unit or (c) separate units (an A/C unit and a furnace side by side). We don’t even know if we can use a heat pump alone in North Carolina, or whether we would have to supplement it with a furnace. Being a bit cautious, we would like to better understand what our options are, and what might be the best choices. (And unfortunately, cost rules out a geothermal heat pump!)
If any of you folks have the time and inclination (not to mention the experience) to comment to us. we woukd relly appreciate hearing what you have to say!
Many thanks...
Fred
1.Manuals J,S,and D to size and select the equipment,Man.D to design the duct system.Anything else is a guess,or a "rule of dumb".See http://www.acca.org
2.Gas with a heat pump,called "dual fuel",is a great way to go.Check with local utilites for advice and rebates.
3.Variable speed indoor fan ,with a great "conrol" system can reduce electric consumption and increase comfort ,over a standard fan motor.
4.The choice of refrigerents is likely to come up check http://www.410a.com for some info..
5.Read some more ,and use the search function ,with "your" keywords on this site.Might want to do that and post a thread of your own with remaining questions.
gardenelf
10-28-2005, 09:46 PM
comparing contractors and proposals sure is exhausting. Just when I thought I had narrowed my search to two finalists, one slammed me with a proposal which is more than a grand higher than the other..neither contractor shows the labor and the "material" price separate, so I am left wondering if there is such a huge price difference in the systems. The only difference I could find so far the more expensive Trane XL 14i proposal has only a 2 Ton capacity, compare to the Carriers Performance Series 2.5 Tons...any help?
Indoor Comfort
10-28-2005, 10:24 PM
Gardenelf if you are still accepting bids give us a call(910)891-8472 ask for Andy. We are a small company out of Erwin about 35 miles from Sanford.
Originally posted by gardenelf
comparing contractors and proposals sure is exhausting. Just when I thought I had narrowed my search to two finalists, one slammed me with a proposal which is more than a grand higher than the other..neither contractor shows the labor and the "material" price separate, so I am left wondering if there is such a huge price difference in the systems. The only difference I could find so far the more expensive Trane XL 14i proposal has only a 2 Ton capacity, compare to the Carriers Performance Series 2.5 Tons...any help?
Manual J can get you the correct size,that's what you need.
What size do you have now,and how does it do on a hot day?
gardenelf
10-29-2005, 09:44 AM
Hi dash, I don't know what size system we currently have, all the labels are ruined (faded from the weather), you should have seen the puzzled looks on the hvac guys, can't read a thing of them...Both companies did a manual load. I don't understand why one recommends a 2 Ton and one a 2.5 Ton...I guess this is the way the matched system are designed.
Nope one is correct and the other is incorrect,or worse yet ,they are both wrong.
If your in a humid climate you really don't want to over size.yopu can do a calc. at the RED tab above for a small fee.I'd ask each to check their numbers .
gardenelf
10-30-2005, 09:21 PM
Since I am running out of time trying to find the right contractor I will order this system tomorrow...Trane XL14i...TEE3F31A100A..BAZHTR1410..4TWX4024A1..14 SEER..2 TONS..this was the most expensive bid I received, and the biggest company I had contacted, but the rep. was the only person to check out the wiring and take a look at the breaker box and suggested to bring in an electrician. What do you think?
Originally posted by dash
Nope one is correct and the other is incorrect,or worse yet ,they are both wrong.
If your in a humid climate you really don't want to over size.yopu can do a calc. at the RED tab above for a small fee.I'd ask each to check their numbers .
I'd make sure the load calc is correct or the contractor is on the hook in writing,like one brands 100% satisfaction guarantee,if it's wrong.
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