The furnace is in....thank you very much (pictures)

[jclancy]

Just wanted to say thank you to you all who responded to my posted during the furnace-buying decision process.

Thread here:
http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=85655

After long last, the furnace (a Heil 90+ efficient) is in and running, as is the humidifier. Both are running fine, or so it seems. Installation went from about 9:00 AM to about 6:00 PM. No major problems, other than something was cross-wired when he went to test it for the first time (found and corrected within minutes), and they had to replace a ball valve on the line into the furnace because the old, original 30-year-old one was leaking.

Can't say I really notice much difference from the old furnace, but at least I don't have to worry about whether old Betsy is going to last another winter. And I guess the humidifier will be nice this winter.

Some people asked for photos of before and after...they are here:
http://pages.cthome.net/jclancy/

The only thing not done yet is the chimney lining for the hot water heater....it was torrential rain yesterday (day 8 and counting!) and he asked if it was OK to come back next weekend, instead, which is fine by me, as long as it gets done. He told me that he checked with the town, and it's not required for a chimney and setup like ours, but everyone here said to do it, so he's going to do it.

Speaking of the chimney, after all this rain, we had a leak around the chimney that he noticed...going up in the attic, I saw a lot of water running down the sides of the chimney in the attic, but no one place that it was coming from. I went up on the roof today with some 208 caulk / asphault and applied a liberal amount on the upper part of the chimney. I'd never looked in my chimney before, and was surprised to see the existing liner so unevenly laid out (there are photos on that site above). I wouldn't be surprised if water was leaking through those! Will the new liner prevent that if it were indeed happening?

Thanks, as always! Thoughts, etc. welcome!

[docholiday]

Glad your happy.

If I may, the retun drop looks awful small for air conditioning. What size is it and what size is your airconditioner? While we're at it the main ductwork looks like it was installed before the house had air conditioning.

[jclancy]

I don't know the size of the return if there's a rating or anything...it's the same return as before, and physically 2 feet by 6 inches.

The AC unit outside is a 10 seer Rheem. The coil they put on above the furnace is 2.5 ton. I don't know what the old coil was...it wasn't touched when the A/C was put in around 1998-1999.

As for the ductwork, yes it is the original ductwork, put in before the house had A/C added (sometime in the mid-70s, I'm assuming). Everyone comments that the ductwork is, like every one of the other 150+ houses in this development, too small for the A/C that virtually everyone has added.

[Carnak]

The old furnace may have heated using a 90 degree temperature rise, that new furnace will move more air and be rated for a lower rise like 60 or less, so like doc says that return air connection looks skinny.

You may find that you will not need a humidifier any more, the house will not be as dry now that air is not going up that chimney 24/7 in the winter.

[BaldLoonie]

Water heater not using the chimney?

[Jultzya]

What model of furnace is that?
H9MPD075F12B2 Right?

Which specs a temp rise of 40-70 F, which requires 915-1597 CFM. I would like to see a mid-point of 55 F at 1165 CFM.

You have a 2.5 ton a/c system that requires 1000 CFM.

That 6x24 ducting is 650-750 CFM.

So that's 45% short on the furnace and 35% on the air conditioning. :(

Return air needs to be increased! The rest of the install looks pretty good.

[mayguy]

I agree. the return looks way too skinny!

What happend to the Lennox?

[johnl45]

The humidifier is mounted in wrong location

[Christheheatingdude]

Originally posted by johnl45
The humidifier is mounted in wrong location

Looks like they didnt have the height on the plenum to move it up.


Should definetly address that return drop. I am suprised that they didn't install a new one to begin with. It is standard on all residential replacements that we do. But I guess different with each locale.

[Roscoe]

Originally posted by johnl45
The humidifier is mounted in wrong location

Looks like they didnt have the height on the plenum to move it up.
yep

Christheheatingdude

Should definetly address that return drop. I am suprised that they didn't install a new one to begin with. It is standard on all residential replacements that we do. But I guess different with each locale.

yep, yep

[Edited by pjs on 10-15-2005 at 08:56 PM]

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

If that humidifier ever leaks for any reason, your furnace is shot. Just hope that it happens inside of the warranty period.

And the return is definitely too small.

[dec]

Have to agree that the drop is too small. No way of keeping it the right static pressure when its that small. They should have charged you the cost of adding a new one and installed the humidifyer on the new return drop, then to cut into the evap coil casing. I think you made a great choice on equipment...I like Heils, its good equipment. Im not trying to pick on your installers and they are smart to get that liner in for your water heater . A lot of shops try to skip that but its not right if you dont in my opinion. My main problem is with the return drop tho...... did any one else that bid it question the size of return drop?

[docholiday]

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy
If that humidifier ever leaks for any reason, your furnace is shot. Just hope that it happens inside of the warranty period.

And the return is definitely too small.

Nice, do you really suggest that water damage from another componant should be a valid claim for warranty? Thats not a warranty item.

[BaldLoonie]

If the hum leaks, the c-pump might get wet but the furnace is safe.

[heetseeker]

Where should the humidifier be mounted? Even if it was mounted on the plenum, would the water leak be any better?
I have a A/S cased coil and my installer mounted the aprilaire 700 on the case. I looked at the instructions for mounting and it seem that mounting on the case is acceptable. What am I missing?

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by heetseeker
What am I missing?

Nothing as long as air can properly flow threw it.

[heetseeker]

It seems that the prior posts suggests the pleneum is a better location for a humidifier. Is there a good reason for this preference?

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

Originally posted by docholiday
Nice, do you really suggest that water damage from another componant should be a valid claim for warranty? Thats not a warranty item.

D'oh! My bad! That wouldn't be covered, would it? Sorry for missing that one.

On the other subject of the humidifier location - I am suggesting that the humidifier should be on the return boot. If the drain clogs, or the pad deteriorates and shifts in a certain fashion, water can go directly down inside of the furnace. Straight to the heat exchanger, blower motor, circuit board, wiring, etc. I have SEEN it happen.

[tinknocker service tech]

personaly i think your contractor did a nice job. retrofit is not easy and seems he replaced what he felt need to be replaced. eveything looks tight and sealed up and he took the time to make it look as nice as he could. it is hard to see the intire job from a picture but from what can be seen he did good
good luck with your new system
the humidifier looks ok also and should not pose a problem either.

[docholiday]

I do too, dont get me wrong, I just dont think he puts any value on installing proper ductwork but as far as workamnship goes, he did ok.

[jclancy]

Understand the point about the need for a new or larger return. Looking through the bids, only one of the four mentioned a new return on their sheet.

So, what to do about it? Ask him to come back and put a larger return in (obviously, for more money)? Put a larger one in myself (it doesn't seem like there's anything but sheet metal work to it)? What are the consequences for having the return I do now?

As for the humidifier, well, I guess I can see the point that it would be better if it were mounted on the return, but at the same time, there's really not much room on the left side of the existing return, and then if we're talking of making the return bigger, well, there'd definately be no room. The shelving you see in the photo is pretty well bolted into the wall and I need every bit I can get. The aluminum tubing you can see is obviously going into the return now.....I'm assuming that if it's mounted on the return, it's only a short little piece?

Ideas?

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

If your return was the right size, you could put the humidifier on the side of the return.

I know you spent good money and I feel bad making the criticisms that I am making. Trust me. It's just that, where I'm from the undersized return and the humidifer on the supply side (let alone cut into the coil) are HUGE no-no's.

One of the more experienced guys around here will probably make a suggestion of what you should do. Possibly one that is a business owner. I really don't know.

[Edited by ryan_the_furnace_guy on 10-16-2005 at 05:17 PM]

[dec]

I was just looking at the pics again.......I guess Im wondering if in that area they are required to have an ssu disconect, like we are. nice to have that outlet for the conensate pump but an on off switch would never pass here . Now it may be all fine an dandy where you are ....... your contractor knows your codes a whole lot better then I would. Guess Im just asking the other contractors here. SSU DISCONNECT REQUIRED WHERE YOU ARE ?

[ryan_the_furnace_guy]

Originally posted by dec
SSU DISCONNECT REQUIRED WHERE YOU ARE ?

No. Not if protected by a HACR breaker.

[jclancy]

I'm hopefully posting more photos tonight so people can see better...my web site ISP is down right now for maintenance.

[Roscoe]

It doesn't seem like you will lose much shelving , besides there looks to be plenty of room in the basement for shelves.

I'd go for the bigger return duct, your guy can buy this already made, also put the hum on the return.

Question does that condensate pump go to a drain or outside?

[jclancy]

The hose for the pump goes up and towards the laundry room (the slab you see behind the furnace is the floor of the next level of the house, and just beyond the sheetrock you see is the laundry room), where it goes into the same drainpipe as my washing machine (the chimney is basically in the laundry room, so that will give you some frame of reference).

[pg]

It is hard to say anything from the pics, But YOU should notice a comfort difference and if you don't get a tec in that can set up your furnace. There are issues I would have but I don't know who you had install this.We don't (or at least I don't know the the model or size of your unit) But I really hope you have a variable motor. I have just signed up on this forum and I would like to know how your furnace was sized? please note that I am not saying it is a bad install but not to notice a difference from what you had to what you have just blogges my mine. I get calls from most customers to say what a difference and if they don't call within 3-4 weeks I call to varify.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
personaly i think your contractor did a nice job. retrofit is not easy and seems he replaced what he felt need to be replaced. eveything looks tight and sealed up and he took the time to make it look as nice as he could. it is hard to see the intire job from a picture but from what can be seen he did good
good luck with your new system
the humidifier looks ok also and should not pose a problem either.

DITTO!!!!

[tinknocker service tech]

pg
welcome nice to have another here

[dec]

Originally posted by ryan_the_furnace_guy

Originally posted by dec
SSU DISCONNECT REQUIRED WHERE YOU ARE ?

No. Not if protected by a HACR breaker.


ok so you got me there.... whats a hacr breaker.... are you talking breakers, like in an electric furnace? never have heard hacr breakers?

[Jultzya]

They are special Eletrical Panel Breakers that are designed to use in the HVAC industry.

[jclancy]

As far as the comfort level in the house, I really don't know what to say. We didn't really get the new furnace for comfort reasons, but rather that we had some money, and the 30-year-old one in the basement didn't look or sound like it was going to make it another winter. I'd rather do it now than some February night. I did not opt for the variable speed fan, because I didn't think the extra money was worth it for the benefit I'd see (more constant temperature, maybe some reduced electricity use, etc.)....because of this group, I 'upgraded' what I wanted put in to a 90%+ efficient (I originally was shopping for 80%) and I'm lining the chimney. So thanks all for that!

There are new photos up at:
http://pages.cthome.net/jclancy/

I'll be speaking with the contractor later this week when he comes back to do the chimney liner, so any thoughts on what to say re: the need for a larger return, etc. are welcome!

And any thoughts on that set of chimney photos (scroll down that page)...could those non-aligned pieces of lining be where my water leak is?

[mayguy]

I am sure with the chimmey like that, it's why you are getting water in the house.. Hear you had a lot of rain last week!

I wouild run a liner up, and put a metal cap on top and run the pipe though the cap.

[craig1]

Originally posted by jultzya
They are special Eletrical Panel Breakers that are designed to use in the HVAC industry.


and the breakers will say HACR Type somewhere on them. An electrician told me that all breakers manufactured today are HACR type.

[Jultzya]

From the pictures there are some things I would have done differently, but the item that really needs to be addressed is the...

RETURN DROP!

[Roscoe]

Does it snow where you're at, the combustion air and exhaust are supposed to be 12" above the highest anticipated snow fall not a big problem to correct.

Should be in the install instructions.
Did you say New England :D

[jclancy]

Originally posted by mayguy
I am sure with the chimmey like that, it's why you are getting water in the house.. Hear you had a lot of rain last week!

I wouild run a liner up, and put a metal cap on top and run the pipe though the cap.

That's pretty much what I was thinking too....that's not what a masonry liner is supposed to look like, right? I would assume it's supposed to be more flush than that?

Yes, we've had about a foot of continuous rain in the last week.

[jclancy]

Originally posted by pjs
Does it snow where you're at, the combustion air and exhaust are supposed to be 12" above the highest anticipated snow fall not a big problem to correct.

Should be in the install instructions.
Did you say New England :D

Yes, central Connecticut. I thought they looked low also, but it's PVC, so I'm assuming that if it really presents a problem, all we need to do is buy an angle and go up a foot or two, right?

[Roscoe]

Ohh it will present a problem alright first significant snow and a little drift up against the house. No combustion air, No heat:eek:

[Carnak]

Shovel a path to the vent termination/ combustion air intake immediately after the first snow fall. Keep path clear, keep vent/intake clear and there will be no problem.

Customers should always be educated to keep vent clear.

[mattm]

I just want to know if anyone fessed up to dropping that pool ball down the old return.

Where's the pics of the new condensing unit?

[ductguy007]

Clean looking Install-I must be blind as a bat! Were is the condensate drain off the Condensing flue?

[ductguy007]

Dont want to rag on your new Installation,But besides the snow drift on the Intake side of the flue,do not crack that window open above the Exhaust flue--- You should relocate your flues. Good Luck!

[smokin68]

I'm not trying to throw your install under the bus so to speak, but all of those low voltage wire nuts would have been in a junction box if up to me. Besides undersized return, nice job IMO.

[Christheheatingdude]

Originally posted by ductguy007
Dont want to rag on your new Installation,But besides the snow drift on the Intake side of the flue,do not crack that window open above the Exhaust flue--- You should relocate your flues. Good Luck!


Why?

The installation of the Intake and Exhaust look to be at least 4' below the window. That is more than enough. Check the installation manual for HEIL, the vents are fine. The only thing to possibly be concerned about is snow level. And that is a minor concern. I am sure the homeowner is aware if snow drifts are a problem on that side of the house.

One other thing, depending on which one is exhaust, it might be a little close to the inside corner there. Could have a issue with the vent gases swirling back into the intake.

[Freezeking2000]

The intake and exhaust need to be moved up, at least 2 or 3 feet. Imagine you are not home and a big storm comes,furnace shuts down and home freezes. Have them come and fix that!

We can get enough snow to cover those in hours!

[jclancy]

The window above the pipes is never opened....it's above the sink and there's always too much crap on it to open (as evidenced by the photo and the voluminous cobwebs and dirt). ;) The redwood-stained wall on the right of the photo is a screened porch, so really, I don't think there's going to be too much problem of gas floating into the house, especially since when the furnace is running, it's going to be cold, presumably, and we're going to have the sliding glass door to the screened porch closed anyway.

But, yes, I was sort of planning to see how it went this winter with the pipes in that location and move them up if I need to. We can potentially get snow that high overnight, but that corner of the house doesn't tend to have a lot of drifts. We'll see, I guess.

[jclancy]

Originally posted by mattm
I just want to know if anyone fessed up to dropping that pool ball down the old return.

Ha! I laughed when I saw that too. You know, we bought the house in 1996....prior to us was a family with a LOT of kids. When the ducts were cleaned out prior to the install last week, they found Legos, baseball cards from the '90 season (I already checked...none can help pay for the install ;) ), paper, etc. We've never had them cleaned before, and I'm willing to bet no one else has either. But, yes, the ball was funny when I saw it.



Originally posted by mattm
Where's the pics of the new condensing unit?

Didn't get a new condensing unit for the A/C...stayed with the same 10 seer Rheem. Although he mentioned to me that when they drained (cleared?) the line from it prior to the install, there wasn't much charge left in it, and he had some concerns about the valves the installer had used, which I'm not entirely clear I understand why. The company that put it in originally had a hell of a time the first month....they had to have come here four times because it kept losing the gas....they finally fixed it with a new valve, or so my notes say, but it took a while to get it running without problems.

That'll be my spring worry. ;)

[ductguy007]

Chris:Take A close look at that photo,it looks like the new flues are installed in a !L! shaped corner,not A straight wall. Im sure that the Heil guide says its Ok---Just like G.M says to use there 5w-30 ONLY in my new Suburban. I checked out your web- nice. You know probably better than anyone, that things are not aways Black and White in the HVAC world.
I have alot of MXA's and MVP's under my belt. Love the 90%ers. Infilteration can be a killer -If i back a car in that corner on a cold Winter morning- go inside and take a reading.
Also Who is to say that the Homeower wont sell in 2-3yrs and the new owner has no clue as the old single pain deteriorates -----Just A Thought------
P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?

[jclancy]

Originally posted by ductguy007
Chris:Take A close look at that photo,it looks like the new flues are installed in a !L! shaped corner,not A straight wall.

It is in a L-shaped corner, but the right side of the L is a non-weatherproofed, screened exterior porch. Air flows freely through the screen, under the porch, through the slats, etc. Maybe I'm dense....what's the problem that you're worried about, the fumes hurting people, or the exhaust being redirected back into the furnace? The former seems next to impossible, since no one is on the screened porch when the furnace would be going anyway.





P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?

I'll be glad to take a photo of it for you....what am I looking for / where would it be?

[docholiday]

No need for a pic, the trap is inherant if the drain line is going below the water surface in the condensate pump. Even if it doesnt, its an upflow positive pressure, the worst case is you blow conditioned air out the tube.

[Chad711]

Looks pretty good, like other I noticed the return right away. A simple fix to relieve the static pressure is cut a 16x20 or whatever size grill you can fit into that return. Yeah yeah not good for a/c but it will help the static pressure...

[jclancy]

What are the long and short term consequences of having a return of the size I do?

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by ductguy007
P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?

Are you familiar with ICP products?

If not, the furnace trap is inside the unit. It mounts to the sheet metal plate that the blower hangs from. You can see the "black hose" coming out of the right side of the furnace and into the condensate pump.

http://pages.cthome.net/jclancy/images/Photo%20024.jpg

The only time the trap is external on the new "B-series" is when the unit is being used in either a horizontal or counter-flow position.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by jclancy
What are the long and short term consequences of having a return of the size I do?

High temperature rise, bad for heat exchanger and for other parts that operate outside of their specifications. Poor efficiency.

High Static Pressure, bad for blower motor and blower wheel.

High Temp Cycling, bad for efficiency and shortens equipments life span.

Overall, you are going to have a problematic unit that ends up costing you money in operating cost, repair costs, and the costs of your personal frustration EVERY time the unit has a problem. :(

Etc, etc,.....

It needs to be ADDRESSED!

[mayguy]

I agree with Jultz of what he listed.. Also, may hear the air rush going down the small ductwork.


If the heat exchanger fails, more likely the warranity will NOT cover it.

[Christheheatingdude]

Originally posted by ductguy007
Chris:Take A close look at that photo,it looks like the new flues are installed in a !L! shaped corner,not A straight wall. Im sure that the Heil guide says its Ok---Just like G.M says to use there 5w-30 ONLY in my new Suburban. I checked out your web- nice. You know probably better than anyone, that things are not aways Black and White in the HVAC world.
I have alot of MXA's and MVP's under my belt. Love the 90%ers. Infilteration can be a killer -If i back a car in that corner on a cold Winter morning- go inside and take a reading.
Also Who is to say that the Homeower wont sell in 2-3yrs and the new owner has no clue as the old single pain deteriorates -----Just A Thought------
P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?

That is exactly what I was saying with the last line of my post. That it looked like a inside corner. Possible recirculation of flue gases. Wind currents can get strange in those areas. Also could increase the possiblilty of ice forming on the intake, causing a blocked vent, or partially blocked causing a nuisance.

[ductguy007]

Attn:Jc lancy After spending more time reviewing your photos,i can clearly see the little black hose coming from the condensing flue into the pump,before, I just looked at the side shot were it was hiding behind the 3/4" pvc.
About your flues:If you are comfortable with were they are located GRrrreat!.It's your castle not mine. There is just things that I would have done differant,like
.Precast- 3"Insolated slab under the Furnace-get that blower off the concrete.
.Put rubber foam tape around the PVC flue pipe were it is strapped ,Two reasons 1. Flues vibrate-sharp duct strap acts like a razor knife. 2.Vibration noise thru the floor joice.
.Make sure that the PVC flues are not touching gas lines,metal ducts.ect------again with the vibrating noise.
.More R\A. It's clear to see that the R\a is the original heat only duct,than years later someone added A\C and a evap coil. Yours is to small.
.Separate the low voltage/water lines/high voltage,from each other,no wire tyes.
.Put low voltage in 2"x 4" box.
.Get the plastic condensate pump off the ground.
.Again with the flues.I would have gone with a concentric kit thru the roof.

again this is just one HVAC guy's opinion. Good luck with your new system.
Ductguy oo7 the non-speller.

[climateguy]

If you're going to take a wait-and-see approach to the issue of the vent/flue pipes it is imperative that you have working Carbon Monoxide detectors in your house.

[jclancy]

AN UPDATE

My contractor came back this weekend as promised to put a lining in the chimney for the hot water heater. All seemed to go fine....glad you all convinced me to do that.

I had all of the pages of this thread printed and wanted to talk to him about the issue of my return being too small, which about a dozen of you mentioned. I didn't want to do it in an accusing way, as it wasn't included in the bid anyway, but more of a "should we really do this?" way.

His response was basically that yes, the return is on the small side, but so are the original trunks and supplies. He said that in his opinion, a larger return isn't going to accomplish anything if we also don't make the vent supplies larger....he said that, as pretty much every contractor said, the ductwork in this house was fine for the heating systems they put in in 1969, but nothing today would be built with ductwork this small. Short of replacing all the ductwork to accomodate the larger flow of air from a larger return, he didn't see the point in putting a larger return on. He told me that he lives in basically the same house as mine (one developer built most of this side of town in the late 60s), had the same old Bryant furnace as mine, put the same furnace as my Heil in, and he's using the exact same return and supplies as I have. Not being a professional myself, his reasoning didn't seem to be bad to me....if my ductwork can only support X going through it, what does a larger return do for the furnace? Isn't there sort of a logjam at the delivery end?

He was fine about discussing the topic, saying, "If you'd like me to do it, I'll be happy to, but you're not going to see any difference." I asked if having the smaller return is hurting the furnace, and he said no. He didn't read through all 20+ pages of your printed posts, but he flipped through and read the ones I circled.

He said he'd work through the CFM capacity on my ducts and call me back to let me know what they are (I'm not clear what I'm supposed to do with that information once I have it) and to find out if I really want to put a larger return on.

Thoughts?

[Edited by jclancy on 10-23-2005 at 11:21 PM]

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by climateguy
If you're going to take a wait-and-see approach to the issue of the vent/flue pipes it is imperative that you have working Carbon Monoxide detectors in your house.

This statement is not very accurate.

If there is a problem with the piping this winter the unit is not going to run due to safeties shutting it down.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by jclancy
He said that in his opinion, a larger return isn't going to accomplish anything if we also don't make the vent supplies larger....he said that, as pretty much every contractor said, the ductwork in this house was fine for the heating systems they put in in 1969, but nothing today would be built with ductwork this small. Short of replacing all the ductwork to accomodate the larger flow of air from a larger return, he didn't see the point in putting a larger return on.

So the whole ducting is inadequate for your new unit. This is going to shorten its life and reliability.


He told me that he lives in basically the same house as mine (one developer built most of this side of town in the late 60s), had the same old Bryant furnace as mine, put the same furnace as my Heil in, and he's using the exact same return and supplies as I have.

So his is wrong to, does this make your any happier?


Not being a professional myself, his reasoning didn't seem to be bad to me....if my ductwork can only support X going through it, what does a larger return do for the furnace? Isn't there sort of a logjam at the delivery end?

He was fine about discussing the topic, saying, "If you'd like me to do it, I'll be happy to, but you're not going to see any difference." I asked if having the smaller return is hurting the furnace, and he said no.

It most certainly will, if the unit is not operating with-in the manufactures specifications. I have seen many fail in less than 5 years due to installation issues! :(


He didn't read through all 20+ pages of your printed posts, but he flipped through and read the ones I circled.

Maybe he should come here and learn WHY it is WRONG and how to know if it is or not.


He said he'd work through the CFM capacity on my ducts and call me back to let me know what they are (I'm not clear what I'm supposed to do with that information once I have it) and to find out if I really want to put a larger return on.

Thoughts?

Yes, he needs to measure the temperature rise on the unit. That will tell him whether the ducting is even close. Going over numbers at his office is not telling him the true parameters of your system.

By performing tests on YOUR unit in ITS current location will tell the rest of the story.

IT must be CHECKED!

If you don’t have this checked and corrected now, you will be paying for it later. And later will be the LEAST cost effective option for your pocketbook.

[2hot2coolme]

Sounds to me like they did all they really could.

What I would do is put in a new return drop, (at least a 24 X 8) and add a return run in the basement right off the drop. Like a 10" round or something. I really don't know what your whole set-up is like there, but It can't be that difficult to add runs there. It's gonna cost extra $$$ though.

[jclancy]

When you say add a new return run off the return drop, I apologize, but I don't know what you mean....going from where to where? I have a split level house....the top level has three returns, one in each bedrooms. The main level has one return for the large space there (kitchen, LR, and dining room that are only seperated by a dividing wall. The "garage level" has no returns, nor does the lowest level (where the furnace is...half of that level is a finished basement).

He was in my house when we went over everything....he had come back to do the chimney liner.

I guess my question is....if my existing ductwork can only handle X amount of air flowing through them because they're small, what is the benefit to the furnace of having more air supplied to it via a larger return? Is it solely to prevent the temperature rise that was mentioned? How will it do that if the air doesn't have anywhere to go?

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't mind spending the money, but I can see where he's coming from in his reasoning. If I were building this house over, I completely understand the reasoning and rationale for larger ducts, returns, etc. But with the existing ducts, does it make sense?

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by jclancy
When you say add a new return run off the return drop, I apologize, but I don't know what you mean....going from where to where?

From the new properly sized return drop to the space that the unit is heating. Preferably to a location that doesn’t already have a return (but returns can’t be pulled from garages, bathrooms, kitchens, or utility rooms).


I guess my question is....if my existing ductwork can only handle X amount of air flowing through them because they're small, what is the benefit to the furnace of having more air supplied to it via a larger return?

Please see my previous post. I attached it below.


Is it solely to prevent the temperature rise that was mentioned?

Please see my previous post. I attached it below.


How will it do that if the air doesn't have anywhere to go?

The air enters the furnace from the return and then exits the furnace through the supply. If either of these is inadequate, they need to be addressed. The only way to know is to do some test to your equipment (temp rise, static pressure, gas pressure, etc…)


But with the existing ducts, does it make sense?

If your equipment is not operating with-in manufactures specifications, YES it makes all the sense in the world to redo the ducting so your furnace will last!

Original post follows below:


Originally posted by jultzya

Originally posted by jclancy
What are the long and short term consequences of having a return of the size I do?

High temperature rise, bad for heat exchanger and for other parts that operate outside of their specifications. Poor efficiency.

High Static Pressure, bad for blower motor and blower wheel.

High Temp Cycling, bad for efficiency and shortens equipments life span.

Overall, you are going to have a problematic unit that ends up costing you money in operating cost, repair costs, and the costs of your personal frustration EVERY time the unit has a problem. :(

Etc, etc,.....

It needs to be ADDRESSED!


Till the unit is properly tested, everything is just a guess. Get the test results and go from there. I will say that I have a pretty good idea what the results are going to be.

Good Luck.

[jclancy]

OK, thank you. Assuming the test results show what they probably will, you're basically saying that I need to have all the ductwork in the house re-done. In other words, just replacing the return isn't going to solve the problem.

[Jultzya]

Without going back to re-read the post.

Did you have load calculation done?

If not, the remedy could be as simple as installing the correct size of equipment that would operate fine with your existing ducting.

This should be the first step in any equipment change.

You can do your own load calculation here (http://hvaccomputer.com/talkref.asp).

[jclancy]

No, none of the contractors did anything like a calculation or anything like that. Or if they did, I didn't see it.

[docholiday]

Well to be frank, you may have a hard time doing the load calc after the fact, but duct changes can be made. More than likley he didnt charge you to upgrade the ducts so he's not financially obligated to do it now but that is not to say he wouldnt work with you. As pwer my original post on page 1, the bottom line is the system needs to be checked for airflow, that is "actual airflow" and temperature rise. The total static should be at or below .5", otherwise you are eating away at the efficiency of the system and puting up with noise levels you should not have to.

Allow your contractor to quote you to install a proper duct system and you will surely be happier with the performance and know that reliability of the system will be more in line with the manufacturers intention.

I bet you're sorry you ever brought this up :)