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View Full Version : Followed advice, got bids, need help deciding



mlbussert
10-05-2005, 11:09 PM
Hey everyone,

First, I have to tell you that this site helped me lots with my research and understanding of HVAc.
Second, I followed Docholiday and Heatpumpguru's advice, and did a little bit of research, and only got 3 bids (I also read related posts of course).This is what happended.
I have a 1000 sqf. home, cinder block no insulation but for the roof. I live in Tucson, AZ, where for the most part winters are mild, with the exception of the rare freak storm, and summers (three months) are brutal. All three contractors took measurements, and they all seemed like experts and very knowledgeable. Please bear with me, as my explanation is rather long.

Contractor A, after calculating the size of AC/heater in his office, said that I needed a 3 ton gas/electric package unit. His proposal is for a 12 SEER A/S (YCX036GIMOA), with a programable thermostat. This includes 5 yrs. parts, 10 yrs. compresor, 20 yrs. heat exchanger, and 2 yrs. parts and labor (from them). I feel really comfortable with this guy and, in my mind mind this is the best proposal so far.

Contractor B took measurments, but told me right off the bat that I needed a 3 ton unit, without any manual j calculation or anything. He offered 3 systems: Trane, Carrier, and Rheem, all 14 SEER and understandably more expensive than the 12 SEER; no models, just prices and similar warranties for the Trane, half for the Rheem (one year labor).

Contractor C took measurments, and did a Manual J calculation in my house, with a laptop. He showed it to me and it came out to 2.79 tons. He said the best thing to do was to go with the 12 SEER 3 ton unit. He offered Trane and Rheem, but even the Rheem is more than the A/S of Contractor A by about a grand (same warranties for the equipment, but only one year labor).

Now, here's how I see things. Contractor B is almost off the list since he said that he could not sell me 12 SEER as it was not made anymore, and that he could only sell me 13 or 14 SEER. Now, all three companies are about the same size, so I assume they have similar distribuitors, yet the other two had no problems offering 12 SEER units, even from Trane. So, after this, I am left with several questions:

1. Is it okay to go from 2.79 tons to 3 tons, or is it better to undersize (this is a block house, in a very hot climate; besides I have a dog and when I am gone I need to leave one of the doors slightly open so he can go outside).

2. I am not staying here more than 3 years, so is the 14 SEER worth it (I think not, but I would value your opinions?

3. What size of return should they install for this?

Like I said before, I am leaning towards Contractor A, not just because of price, but because he seemed to be the most willing to answer all my questions, called back after his visit to tell me he had the calculation and a proposal ready and he would mail it to me, and he was not pushy at all (neither was guy C, but B insited on 14 SEER even though I told him that I would be here for only three more yrs.)
What do you all think? (I apologize for the length)

Jultzya
10-05-2005, 11:17 PM
I think your conclusion is correct so far...

mlbussert
10-06-2005, 12:08 AM
Thanks for the encouragement Jultza, I greatly appreciate your response (I have found your comments in other posts to be among some of the most helpful :-)). I hope I can also get Mr. Boyd (Roboteq, who presumably likes Herradura Aņejo), Docholiday, Heatpumpguru, 2Hot2Coolme, and everybody else's opinions (I apologize if I missed somebody's name, but these are the names that I can remember. Oh!, and Mr. Mills (BaldLoonie)). I look forward to your response. Thanks.

Jultzya
10-06-2005, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by mlbussert
Thanks for the encouragement Jultza, I greatly appreciate your response (I have found your comments in other posts to be among some of the most helpful :-)).

How can I not help you further with a comment like that? :p

So here is some more info for you:

2.79 tons = 2.79 x 12,000 = 33,480 Btu.

ICP's 3 Ton, 12 SEER, Split condensing unit puts out 32-36 K depending on IDB, IWB & AT as you can see here (http://icpindexing.mqgroup.com/documents/003046/42113330101.pdf) on the top of page 5.

All equipment will vary just a little, so the 3 ton unit is likely the correct size if their load calc is correct.

The deadline for manufacturing equipment under 13 SEER is Jan 23, 2006.

You can play with opeating cost here (http://www.hvacopcost.com/). Just remember this is estimated and may be off a little.

This is the biggest appliance purchase you will have to make so make sure you feel comfortable with the comtractor you choose. Get references, maybe look at pictures of past jobs, etc...

Ask friends, family, co-workers, neighbors, who they use and if they are happy.

Jultzya
10-06-2005, 01:13 AM
BTW, have them install a media filter for your system (4-5" thick air filter). Your system will greatly appreciate it! :)

mlbussert
10-06-2005, 01:27 AM
Jultzya,

Again thank you and everyone else who cares to comment. I have a question though, and this is something I forgot to ask about: what is a media filter (I read some posts that mentioned it) and what is the difference with a regular return filter (if that is the standard/correct term)?

M. Bussert

Jultzya
10-06-2005, 01:57 AM
Media filters:

Aprilaire (homepage (http://www.aprilaire.com/default.asp)) (literature (http://www.aprilaire.com/pdfs/mac_2400.pdf))

http://www.aprilaire.com/images/media_ac_install.jpg

Trion (homepage (http://www.trioninc.com/default.asp)) (literature (http://www.trioninc.com/pdfs/residential/02-0298%20Air%20Bear%20Supreme.pdf))

http://www.trioninc.com/images/residential.acp.header.jpg

They prvide much better air filtration for your equipment and living enviroment. They will last longer than an ordinary 1" filter and cause less restriction for your system.

They will keep your system clean and operating at peak efficiency. By keeping the system clean it will not only operate efficient, it will add to the life of the components.

beenthere
10-06-2005, 05:49 AM
You caught a contractor lying.

He could be mistaken, and believe what he said, but I wouldn't risk it.

A, or C, which one do you feel more comfortable with.

mlbussert
10-06-2005, 02:37 PM
Yultza, I thank you for your time and advice.

I have a follow up question. Is it ok to bargain a little? The reason I ask is because AS is offering financing trough AGF. It's a pretty good deal: 16 or 36 months no interest. The only drawback is that the 36 mo. offer involves adding 10% to the purchase price. I was thinking of telling the contractor to split the difference of this charge with me; it's not much, but it all adds up.
And by the way, if the load calculation says 2.79 tons, is it okay to go with the 3 tons, or is it better to do a 2.5 (it gets pretty darn hot down here).
Thanks everyone for all your input.

Jultzya
10-06-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by mlbussert
I have a follow up question. Is it ok to bargain a little?

If you want the BEST, most reliable system you can POSSIBLY get... don't haggle over the cost of QUALITY workmanship! ;)


And by the way, if the load calculation says 2.79 tons, is it okay to go with the 3 tons, or is it better to do a 2.5

Please see above post...

mlbussert
10-06-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by jultzya

Originally posted by mlbussert
I have a follow up question. Is it ok to bargain a little?

If you want the BEST, most reliable system you can POSSIBLY get... don't haggle over the cost of QUALITY workmanship! ;)


And by the way, if the load calculation says 2.79 tons, is it okay to go with the 3 tons, or is it better to do a 2.5

Please see above post...


Sorry Jultzya, that part escaped my attention! Thanks.