Why do we as techs have to supply tools.

[The Penguin]

I would like to know the reasoning behind the techs supplying tools
OTHER THAN its the way its always been.
I mean why? you don't see white collar jobs this way

office work personel...... . must supply own desk, computor, fax machine cell phone etc.
not an add you are likely to see.

so why is it expected no demanded that we have to supply the tools.

yes I know if you supply it you will take better care of it
but the question remains why is it expected that we supply the tools?

[Christheheatingdude]

Most trades do. A carpenter supplies his hammer. :D I know bad example.

Electricians supply their hand tools, plumbers as well.

With my company the tech supplies hand tools, I supply everything else. It is all part of being a tradesmen, or a craftsmen. At least that is my take on it.

[2hot2coolme]

You already answered your own question...because you will take better care of them, and you won't lose them knowing you will have to pay to replace them because it does get expensive.
Besides don't you like having your own tools?

[Jultzya]

Relate this to the auto industry.

Mechanics have to buy SEVERAL tools, not to mention the specialty tools that one certain vehicle requires.

[gruvn]

This sounds lke another union vs non union thread, in most unions you will be required to have about 300.00 dollars worth of hand tools, a basic set of simple tools, everything else will be bought by the company. I think non union requirements vary from place to place, but few of them buy everything as the union shops do.

And even though I am technically required to maintain a set of handtools (300.00 worth), The company I work for prefers that we just don't put any personal tools on our truck so that when there is a discrepancy ( truck stolen ) they know everything on the truck is theirs. So yes I think it is ridculous for an HVAC serviceman or installer to supply his own tools. Why don't you just buy the material for the job while your at it? Isn't it the same thing ? Isn't the customer paying the company for their ability their equipment their material and their insurance? Why should you pay for it the customer is paying for that stuff, Just another example of another union benefit that gets swept under the rug by the anti union party.

[refrtech]

I am supplied every tool that I need by the company. We are not allowed to have our own tools on our vans.

[ct2]

When I worked with the union, we all had the same set of tools
or real close (tool list) anything above and beyond that list was supplied by the contractor we were working for

also when the employer bought the tooling for the job , he was assured that everything that needed to be , was calibrated.

[square2round]

I'd rather buy my tools and know they are taken well care of and for the fact that they are mine.

This goes for any profession I would choose to work in.

[gruvn]

So lets say you were a laborer doing road construction, making about 50K a year, you wouldn't mind investing several hundred thousand dollars into a paving machine ?

[hillbuck]

I'm required to supply my own hand tools or any off-the-wall tools I want to carry.It's not a bad deal though.If anything breaks or wears out,the company replaces it with an exact tool.It's worth the one time expense to me to know the quality of tools I have verses what the company would choose to supply.

[dhvac]

Originally posted by The Penguin

I mean why? you don't see white collar jobs this way




I have an uncle that is white collar and he has to supply his own lap top digital camera and cell phone

And he is close to the top of the corporate ladder

[ct_hvac_tech]

Refrtech-0

Why are you not allowed to have anything of your own?

I have never heard of that before.

It would be nice in a way, but what if you want something and they won't buy it?

[mark beiser]

I have about $5,000 worth of my own tools and meters in my service van. My employer pays all maintenance/replacement costs for them, including new batteries for my Dewalt set.
About $1500 of it is instruments he purchased for me, but they are my property now.
Recovery machine, vacuum pump, and torch belong to the company, the rest is all mine.

I have a friend who is an auto mechanic, he has ~$40,000 worth of tools for his work, and I make more money than him...

[james mo]

I wouldn't like another person deciding what type and kind of tools I needed to do my job. Just think....They might issue me a Fluke meter instead of the UEI DL-259 I love so much.

[gruvn]

Who said they pick them, why do you think they would wasate their time to pick out tools ?

I go to the counter tell them what I want and give them a PO,

you are not comparing apples to apples.

[Senior Tech]

Now for the plain and simple answer to your question:

Gross margins

Bottom Line

Most employers don't supply tools because what counts is how much money they put in the bank. Understandable I suppose. After all, you must admit your here for the money also...surely not because you really enjoy crawling in hot attics and damp crawl spaces? Given the choice I'm sure if money was not the object of our passion we would all be doing something else wouldn't we?

Also many techs have preferences as to brands and types as proven by the recent meter war threads...can't please'm all so let'm buy their own.

[james mo]

I worked for a company, briefly, that required that I use their tools. They offered to buy mine and let me use them, but it was obviously pennies on the dollar, so they issued me tool bags with tools. I am talking about a well used and thrown together assortment. I put their collection of stuff in the basement and used mine until I left. It was easy to return them though, I never took them out of the bags. Their reasoning was something about insurance coverage, but..... whatever

[2hot2coolme]

How would anyone do any "side jobs" without having their own tools? It would be pretty hard with a hammer and screw driver :D

[joey791]

Originally posted by gruvn
Who said they pick them, why do you think they would wasate their time to pick out tools ?

I go to the counter tell them what I want and give them a PO,

you are not comparing apples to apples.

Happy we dont have to buy our own tools either.

[Workhorse]

Come on now. You got to be kidding me right? Expecting the company to buy your tools for you is assinine. I have always purchased my own tools, including the specialty tools needed. When I started in this trade I not only did HVAC but also major appliances, plumbing and electrical service work. I bought the standard tools needed to make repairs and as time went along I bought more specialty tools that I learned I needed. I started with this company at the same time as another tech did and after 5 years I was making $5 an more than he was. He technical skills were comparable to mine in most areas and even surpassed in a few others, the difference to the company was I had the tools to do the job. I did not have to stop because I didn't have a flare set or Whirlpool spanner wrench. I had these things and was able to complete more work in less time. At the same time if I did break a tool or meter all I had to do was bring it into the office, show them, go purchase another one and they reimbursed me. I got the tools I wanted and was able to purchase any brand. The company I work for now is about the same. There are some tools I wouldn't ever use anyplace else so I have the company purchase them and if and when I leave those tools will stay.

[Workhorse]

Originally posted by gruvn
So lets say you were a laborer doing road construction, making about 50K a year, you wouldn't mind investing several hundred thousand dollars into a paving machine ?

That has to be the dumbest comparison ever!

When have you spent more on tools in this trade than what you made in a year.

[joey791]

Originally posted by workhorse
Come on now. You got to be kidding me right? Expecting the company to buy your tools for you is assinine. I have always purchased my own tools, including the specialty tools needed. When I started in this trade I not only did HVAC but also major appliances, plumbing and electrical service work. I bought the standard tools needed to make repairs and as time went along I bought more specialty tools that I learned I needed. I started with this company at the same time as another tech did and after 5 years I was making $5 an more than he was. He technical skills were comparable to mine in most areas and even surpassed in a few others, the difference to the company was I had the tools to do the job. I did not have to stop because I didn't have a flare set or Whirlpool spanner wrench. I had these things and was able to complete more work in less time. At the same time if I did break a tool or meter all I had to do was bring it into the office, show them, go purchase another one and they reimbursed me. I got the tools I wanted and was able to purchase any brand. The company I work for now is about the same. There are some tools I wouldn't ever use anyplace else so I have the company purchase them and if and when I leave those tools will stay.

The company I work for has always supplied the tools, I have a few speciality things like a Cablecaster(they offered to pay for it though) and also any book we want to read dealing with our profession, we buy it and they reimburse us.

[amickracing]

When have you spent more on tools in this trade than what you made in a year.

Well, never... but it's not because I didn't want to! lol

I provide 70% of my own tools where I work. I'm sure they'd buy me more tools if I asked and was persistant about it, but I'd rather just use my own. I'm fairly new to the trade (5 years), so I'm missing many tools that I need/want, but the collection is getting up there slowly. I have several specialty tools they don't have. But it makes me more valuable to them, and I'm able to do my job better also.

Eventually I'd like to own enough tools to never need a company tool, but that's a long ways off.

Where I used to work, a lot of the service plumber owned every tool they'd use (well most anyway). But they also go paid for it. If they used thier fancy cordless WIERSBO tool, they'd write it down on the ticket and get paid from the company for using it (wasn't much, $30 or so). Seemed like BS to me. I never got paid any more for using my specialty tools..... grrrrr lol

[Nevada]

Of course, different employees will run thing differently. Most require that you provide all of your small tools. Some will replace them if you have been with the company for a while. If you do your paper work right and file a Schedule C as some sort of "side job" you'll be able to take a deduction for all that and more.

[gruvn]

You are doing the companies work, you should do it with their tools.

[Dowadudda]

I have always had my own, to include torches, recovery, vacuum. I like my tools. I use to get offered to have the comapny buy them for me, but companies always buy the cheapest crap. I taked care of my own tools also. I can't say I'd care as much if they were someone elses.

I remember times too, where I would go to work for someone and I would need something like say a digital manometer, which now a days is a must, now they always said they would buy the tools, but they would say, "well thats not a typical tool, cause none of the other techs have one". Guys who know what tools they need and are a must to have are usually smarter and understand how to do their job a lot more than the but crack type.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by gruvn
This sounds lke another union vs non union thread, in most unions you will be required to have about 300.00 dollars worth of hand tools, a basic set of simple tools, everything else will be bought by the company. I think non union requirements vary from place to place, but few of them buy everything as the union shops do.

And even though I am technically required to maintain a set of handtools (300.00 worth), The company I work for prefers that we just don't put any personal tools on our truck so that when there is a discrepancy ( truck stolen ) they know everything on the truck is theirs. So yes I think it is ridculous for an HVAC serviceman or installer to supply his own tools. Why don't you just buy the material for the job while your at it? Isn't it the same thing ? Isn't the customer paying the company for their ability their equipment their material and their insurance? Why should you pay for it the customer is paying for that stuff, Just another example of another union benefit that gets swept under the rug by the anti union party.

As a union sheet metal guy, I can tell you from personal experience that the company supplies less and less. In fact, the company I am working for now (that charges the highest rates in town) won't supply squat.

If my tool breaks on their job, I am the one that is SOL.

For a drill, they gave me a corded one- the first job I was sent to didn't have power. So, if you play their game, your hours on the job suck and you get fired, or you buy a drill that they are required to provide. The proverbial rock and a hard place.

Some shops even require the use of your truck, even though that is expressley forbidden in the contract. Things suddenly "get slow" for those that use a car in some shops, or refuse to carry the ladders, chainsaw and ductwork to the job (another item that is forbidden per contract- transport of employer tools and materials)

The "tool list" in my contract will set me back over $1k by the time it is all over, if you buy American made tools.

Personal experience is the employee that complains is soon looking for a job.

I feel like a subcontractor- without my piece of the pie.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-29-2005 at 07:07 PM]

[NormChris]

As far as I am concerned anyone who considers himself a professional HVAC technician and who takes his or here career seriously owns his own tools. At least all the hand tools, manifold gage sets and a few cordless power tools.

But, not a recovery machine, vacuum pump or other larger pieces of equipment. There is a difference between tools and equipment.

Every serious technician should have a nice library of HVAC books! And, read them!

[gruvn]

Company buys the books, its in the contract.

[The Penguin]

you are all tool junkies the lot of you (me included) just tool junkies ha!

but seriously folks I'm getting the feeling as time goes by we are subsidising the employer more and more by providing more and more tools.
Norm brings up a good point where do we draw the line between what is considered to be tools and what is considered to be equipment?

Are we all going to end up like the sheet metal guy supplying all our own tools and truck and no compensation for this from the employer thus for all intensive purpouses a subcontractor with no real profit potentional?

I know some employers expect the employee to suppy everything including vac pump reclaim unit nitro gauges etc BUT they do pay tool allowance and also replace broken tools as well and thats really ok by me but I have trouble when I'm on the hook for 15K of tools and no compensation

[neophytes serendipity]

An automotive mechanic provides his own tools, but the pay is based on "beating" an established book time. In other words, you book 60 hours for the week, work 40 and get paid for 60. Therefore, there is some incentive to buy your own tools, especially the cheater ones that save time.

Just like HVAC techs and sheet metal guys, the dealership/employer supplies the specialized stuff and equipment like alignment racks. Some auto techs will still buy some specialized tools that should be provided because it saves them time by having the tool in their box instead of trying to find it in the dealer tool crib, and time is money.

I simply get paid by the hour, no bonus for me. There is no incentive to buy specialized tools, out of my own pocket, that save time. That saved time is going into the employers pocket, not mine. In reality, I am cheating myself out of wages if I get done too quickly. If the job is bid with using sticks and stones for tools, then that is how it should be done.

The problem occurs when hero guy shows up with a tool truck, providing the employer with a substantial investment that they do not pay for, but reap substantial benefits from. Hero guy makes my time on a job look bad, time that was ok recently.

And we all know that Hero Guy is a side jobbin mofo, cuz there is no way all that stuff is paid for with regular wages.

If I am required to supply my own drill, then the company should fix/replace it in like kind if it gets broken on their job making the owner money. Mind you, per contract, a drill (corded or cordless) is an employer provided tool in my area. More shops in my area will tell me that I am SOL when it breaks, but it was OK for the owners to reap the benefits of reduced time on the job by not dragging a cord around.

If, as a HVAC tech, I am required to supply a set or two of gauges or specific specialized hand tools to get the job done, then the company should repair/replace them when they wear out/get damaged on their jobs making the owner money. My experience is I am the one buying new stuff.

Again, there is no increase in my wages to offset these expenditures. Yes, it is a tax writeoff, but it is still money out of my pocket, resulting in a net decrease in earnings.

Unfortunately, good tools are expensive and many employees treat the bosses tools like crap.

I believe in having pride in my work and in my tools, but I am against subsidizing my employer for no extra benefits. If I have to provide the tools and the truck, then why am I working for you?

Makes me want to become an owner and pull the same crap.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 07:17 AM]

[gruvn]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
An automotive mechanic provides his own tools, but the pay is based on "beating" an established book time. In other words, you book 60 hours for the week, work 40 and get paid for 60. Therefore, there is some incentive to buy your own tools, especially the cheater ones that save time.


[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 07:17 AM]

So my vehicle is being worked on by a mechanic that is in a hurry ?

Is this really how they do it ?

Are theestimated times sufficeint enough that the mechanic can beat them easily , or is he just slamming stuff in it ?


Is he even doing half the work that he writes down ?


I will ask the dealer next time I go how the mechanics get paid, and if this is true, I will go elsewhere.

[Steve Wiggins]

Option #1
Company provides everything, truck, gasoline, big tools, hand tools, tool pouch, uniforms, and french fries.

Option #2
Company requires techs use their own truck and ALL tools & pays an allowance for everything, $3/hr. extra for truck & tools, etc...

Mixing the options is not an option.

I would prefer option #2 as a business owner. And yes techs should be paid hourly from port to port and any slack time in between. If a business owner can't afford that then they need to be charging the customer more $$$.

[gruvn]

This is so way out of wack,


Just go tell your owner that you ain't buying no freaking tools, and you are taking yours off your truck. Be a man dammit, this is horse crap already. How do any of you have the nerve to sit here and defend these owners , how the hell can you possibly think that you are better off if you buy your own freakin tools GEEZ O MAN,If ya all did it they would buy them.

[gruvn]

Steve how much would you then throw in if you didn't want to pay medical ? How much is that worth an hour, will you give me 2 more dollars on top of the three ?

[Steve Wiggins]

gruvn when you were a tech working for the other guy did you supply any of your own tools?

[Steve Wiggins]

Originally posted by gruvn
Steve how much would you then throw in if you didn't want to pay medical ? How much is that worth an hour, will you give me 2 more dollars on top of the three ?

Yes, if I don't give you any benefits then I will compensate you for them by raising your hourly rate.

[gruvn]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
gruvn when you were a tech working for the other guy did you supply any of your own tools?

What other guy, I am a tech.

Yes ther ewas a time in my career that I was naive enough to believe that I should buy and maintain my own tools, then I saw the light. And realized that it is assnign to provide you rown tools, as an employee. Now if I was subbing work from someone then Iwould expect to have my own tools, the way it was told to me was a coworker said hey the bi%^&es in the office don't have to buy typewriters do they ?

I said I never looked at it like that , but you're right,,,those bi&$hes don't

[Steve Wiggins]

So you used to work for the other guy but don't anymore. Now you are a tech and you work for yourself? Do you currently buy tools for your employees?

[dhvac]

Originally posted by gruvn

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
An automotive mechanic provides his own tools, but the pay is based on "beating" an established book time. In other words, you book 60 hours for the week, work 40 and get paid for 60. Therefore, there is some incentive to buy your own tools, especially the cheater ones that save time.


[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 07:17 AM]

So my vehicle is being worked on by a mechanic that is in a hurry ?

Is this really how they do it ?

Are theestimated times sufficeint enough that the mechanic can beat them easily , or is he just slamming stuff in it ?


Is he even doing half the work that he writes down ?


I will ask the dealer next time I go how the mechanics get paid, and if this is true, I will go elsewhere.

It is a form of flat rate it can and does work well in most situations
You see gruvn if a tech or mechanic that is not afraid to work for a living would have a whole lot to gain by being paid this way

I have been trying to get to a system like it, this form of earning is more fair for both the employer and the employee (well at least if the employee is not lazy)

[superheater]

Originally posted by NormChris

As far as I am concerned anyone who considers himself a professional HVAC technician and who takes his or here career seriously owns his own tools. At least all the hand tools, manifold gage sets and a few cordless power tools.

But, not a recovery machine, vacuum pump or other larger pieces of equipment. There is a difference between tools and equipment.

Every serious technician should have a nice library of HVAC books! And, read them!

[square2round]

superheater...you trying to say something or just repeat? :)

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by gruvn
[QUOTE]So my vehicle is being worked on by a mechanic that is in a hurry ?

Is this really how they do it ?

Are theestimated times sufficeint enough that the mechanic can beat them easily , or is he just slamming stuff in it ?


Is he even doing half the work that he writes down ?


I will ask the dealer next time I go how the mechanics get paid, and if this is true, I will go elsewhere.

Yes, that is how it is done. Do not let the "hourly rate" fool you.

All those specialized tools that the mechanic pays for enable him to beat the clock and "book" more time, earning more money.

(Conversely, the specialized tools that I own enable my boss to earn more money, and enable him to ask me "Aren't you done YET???")

There are books that detail every little procedure, and someone, somewhere, has determined just how long it shall take to complete the desired repair.

The number in the book is multiplied by the shop hourly rate, and that is what you pay. Small shop or dealer, it doesn't matter (but, to use a smaller brush, I suppose there are some shops that are truly by the hour).

Sometimes, you can get a labor discount by replacing a serpentine belt when a timing belt is done, because the serpentine belt has to come off anyway, and that is already figured in the timing belt number. If you paid labor twice, you got screwed.

Sometimes, the book time doesn't work out so well. The mechanic can end up eating it. Been there. Can't get a new job until the old one is done...

The principle is no different than a flat rate pricing scheme for HVAC work.

The condenser changeout should take XX number of hours, you still get paid if you are done early. What's the difference? Want your HVAC work done by a tech in a hurry? Welcome to the real world.

Auto mechanics see the book time on the job ticket.

How do I know the HVAC shop owner isn't skimming "a little extra" off the time he tells me? Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact that it does.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by gruvn
Steve how much would you then throw in if you didn't want to pay medical ? How much is that worth an hour, will you give me 2 more dollars on top of the three ?

Let's see...

Red carpet coverage for a less than perfect male over 40 can run in excess of $600 a month... If you are eligible (damn preexisting conditions...)

Steve just got a hell of a deal at $2 an hour...

Think $3 an hour will cover gas for your truck?

40 hours = $120. $120 at $2.90 a gallon gets you 41 gallons. 41 gallons at 15 mpg gets you 615 miles. Sounds like the short end of the stick to me, and we haven't even budgeted for tools and truck maintenance. Is the truck paid for?

Don't tell your insurance company that you are doing company business out of your personal vehicle....

Steve must be swimming in cash.....

Health and welfare in the building trades in my area are over $5 an hour, and the unions get a group discount on health coverage.

Depending on the math you use, a company vehicle is worth $5k to $15k annually to the employee. The $3 an hour comes up a little short.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 11:03 PM]

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
If I am required to supply my own drill, then the company should fix/replace it in like kind if it gets broken on their job making the owner money. Mind you, per contract, a drill (corded or cordless) is an employer provided tool in my area. More shops in my area will tell me that I am SOL when it breaks, but it was OK for the owners to reap the benefits of reduced time on the job by not dragging a cord around.

If, as a HVAC tech, I am required to supply a set or two of gauges or specific specialized hand tools to get the job done, then the company should repair/replace them when they wear out/get damaged on their jobs making the owner money. My experience is I am the one buying new stuff.

Again, there is no increase in my wages to offset these expenditures. Yes, it is a tax writeoff, but it is still money out of my pocket, resulting in a net decrease in earnings.

I guess everyones situation is different. I supply all my own non "equipment" type tools, but my employer pays all maintenance and replacement costs for them.
I also get paid substanially more than he would pay someone who he had to supply with all the tools I have.

With all the tools I have to make things faster and/or more accurate, I actually don't get service calls done any faster. They do allow me to be more thorough and diagnose problems that most "techs" in my area miss. This insures more work for me, and generates more money for the company and higher pay rates for me.

[gruvn]

Wouldn't i tbe a lot cleaner and a lot easier for everyone if the company just bought the tools that were needed to work on the jobs that they have ? What the hell is wrong with this ?

I believe in having my own tools also and I do spend little cash on them, the difference between me and you guys is I don't take them to work.I leave them at home.

[The Penguin]

in alot of ways gruvn I agree with you thats why I started this thread. the owners have been laughing behind our backs all this time paying **** wages demanding we supply all the tools req to get the job done lying to us reg the time allowed to complete the work grinding us on call backs not wanting and not paying fro training etc etc AND all the while putting the profits into their pockets.

I know I could beat flat rate on auto repairs I have checked the manuals on jobs I have done and have beaten the time allowed almost all the time. I know I could do the same in HVAC too. I always beat time allowed for a repair but I always book full time allowed my kind of personal flate rate.

[dhvac]

Originally posted by neophytes serendipity

How do I know the HVAC shop owner isn't skimming "a little extra" off the time he tells me? Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact that it does.



That’s what I want to get past when I actually put mine in service
everyone that was involved would be able to check their own book with all the same numbers and see if it is fair


in order for there to be trust there has to be honesty so in your opinion what would make something like this work or fail in our field



Now also why would anyone be opposed to getting paid this way, I mean I know that some times the tech will get screwed but would hope that the 99% of the time that they do well would cover the 1% that they didn’t

[2hot2coolme]

Hey, I thought you guys eat, breath & sh$t HVAC, now you're complaining about buying your own tools?? :rolleyes:

Imposters!!

[doglips]

As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....but as a student when I go for a job interview or first day on the job and have NOTHING and ask my new boss or future boss "dude weres my tools at" I'm not really showing that serious about the job.

Investing in tools of the trade..tools not a bulldozer or forklift...hand tools, gauges meters and the like... shows that I'm serious about learning the field (because im investing my own $$ into it) and the quality of the tools ...with in reason (I cant understand the $40 snap on screw driver)...shows how serious I am.

[gruvn]

Originally posted by doglips
As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....but as a student when I go for a job interview or first day on the job and have NOTHING and ask my new boss or future boss "dude weres my tools at" I'm not really showing that serious about the job.

Investing in tools of the trade..tools not a bulldozer or forklift...hand tools, gauges meters and the like... shows that I'm serious about learning the field (because im investing my own $$ into it) and the quality of the tools ...with in reason (I cant understand the $40 snap on screw driver)...shows how serious I am.

If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have.

If you think you can buy 90% of the tools you need with a hundred dollars, then you are quite naive and are showing your unfamiliararity with basic hand tools.Let alone technical tools,

Dog , what the heck are you talking about, 100.00

If it were a hundred dollars we wouldn't be talking about it, A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?

Dog , I just bought a crimping tool for 40 bucks and took them directly to a grinder to have the top of them grounded down, so they will fit the terminals on the bottom of a Carlyle compressor terminal plate, it renders them pretty much useless for their actual purpose after that.

And what about hand towels, cleaner, first aid, maps,fire extinguisher, fix a flat,


You should supply the willingness and the ability to do the job, and a good work ethic, everything else is on them.

Dog the only advice I can give you after reading this post by you, is that when you go to an interview, take every opprotunity you get to keep your mouth shut.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by dhvac
[QUOTE] That’s what I want to get past when I actually put mine in service
everyone that was involved would be able to check their own book with all the same numbers and see if it is fair

in order for there to be trust there has to be honesty so in your opinion what would make something like this work or fail in our field

Now also why would anyone be opposed to getting paid this way, I mean I know that some times the tech will get screwed but would hope that the 99% of the time that they do well would cover the 1% that they didn’t



I am impressed that you would actually be willing to open the books for your employees.

Here are some opposing thoughts...

For many people, the desire to make more money will win over their integrity.

A flat rate pricing scheme is an incentive to get the work done faster to book more paid hours for the week, without actually working those hours.

It is no different from an "hourly" shop that has an "incentive program". You know, the employee gets $XX for every hour that the job is brought in "under hours" (the employee will make more money actually working on the clock those hours, but let's stop using our brains for just a minute :) ).

That incentive program has it's pitfalls, because the employee will never know the true number of hours. I know workers that have detailed all the hours spent on a job, and they have always come up short at payout time.

Residential tract home projects are big on "hours". Have you ever checked out that kind of work? Some of those contractors are on the bonus program (usually only the foreman because of the high turnover, so the worker bees get cracked by the whip and screwed at payout time), and the quality is even worse.

It only has to last a year, and after that, it is a service call.

When an employee (or crew) gets focused on beating the clock for their cut, quality will go down.

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by doglips
.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....

People like you are why the American economy is headed down the toilet.

I personally wouldn't hire anyone with a truck full of Harbor Freight crap.

Anyone interested in the sheet metal/HVAC field is probably mechanically inclined, and has a pretty decent selection of basic hand tools, so no need to buy any of that for a job.

I personally wouldn't buy anything more than the basics just starting out.

A realistic employer wouldn't expect a greenhorn to own every tool in the book.

A realistic employee should expect something extra from the employer if the employee is responsible for all the tools. Doesn't matter if it is an annual tool allowance or something extra per hour. A smart person would tactfully ask about a future tool allowance during the interview.

I have been looking for that, but haven't found it yet, so the boss continues to spend $20 to save $1.75.

[dhvac]

neophytes serendipity

My whole plan behind it is that I have always felt that as a good hourly employee you do not get what is fair, hourly system was setup for slow, lazy people that want to mile the clock

I think if you pay for the work that is done it is much more fair for all involved but do not want it to turn into a problem with people flying through things to make more money because the times allotted are more than fair and when a subject comes up that a task does not pay enough it can be evaluated and changed immediately

I really believe that a good employee that cares about there career could learn to appreciate this kind of system while the guy who is not productive will starve to death on his pay in which case he was not good for business anyway

[neophytes serendipity]

dhvac-

I have experienced the results of incentive programs.

The owner takes some off the top.

The foreman takes some more. The more people under him the better, now he can cruise around all day, billing hours to all those jobs without actually doing anything.

The guy doing the work gets nothing and has to run his balls off to make the time allotted. "Be happy you are working" is the battle cry.

The superintendent at my current employer is on the bonus program. The workers get nothing. Push, push, push, are you done yet? No one will ever get a 2000 hour year in, though.

Who's to say that one of your 8 hour jobs that routinely gets done in 5 won't be changed to a 6 hour flat rate job? Bet the customers price won't go down... Two sets of "flat rate books"- one for your techs, one for your customers.

I can understand your argument regarding "hourly" workers, but I haven't seen anything rosy on the other side of the fence, either.

[Edited by neophytes serendipity on 10-01-2005 at 10:38 AM]

[doglips]

Lets see IF I can clarify what I meant to say: A Hack don't have the tools or has cheap tools...read the last sentence. "if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad.... "


As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....

and if you say " If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have. " because if you have none...you wont have or get a job...you invested noting in yourself..why should a company

[neophytes serendipity]

Originally posted by doglips
Lets see IF I can clarify what I meant to say: A Hack don't have the tools or has cheap tools...read the last sentence. "if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....

and if you say " If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have. "

because if you have none...you wont have or get a job...you invested noting in yourself..why should a company

Let me clarify myself-

If I have made the tool investment, and I bring those tools to the table, and I ask my employer if there is a tool allowance, and they say no... Then I ask if the tools will be repaired or replaced with like kind (no Harbor Freight crap) if my tools are broken or wore out on their jobs (making them money), and they say no again...

That is what chaps my butt, the owners reaping all the profits of my investment while telling me to eff off.

Not the same as coming to the table with nothing, but if I know going in that the boss won't compensate my investment, then the toys stay home, and no mention is made of them.

[hvac_czar]

Originally posted by gruvn
A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?




Channel Locks fly where you work? I only own one pair, and my wife opens jars with them... :D



[Edited by hvac_czar on 10-01-2005 at 02:34 PM]

[The Penguin]

Hot topic allright

As far as I'm concerned I do believe that in the end there should be a compromise between the all or nothing principle

As a seasoned tech I am willing to provide
3 pipe wrenchs 14 and 2 18 inches the usual screwdrivers some adjustable wrenches nut drivers vice grips one channel locks some neddle nose and crimpers wire stripoers , a 3/8 socket set a meter a battery drill a puller or two tube cutters flaring tools swedging tools to 3/4 bending springs etc to a value about 2000

I do feel particulary the specialist tools like weigh scales vac pump reclaim electric drills grinders welding eqp etc comb anyaliser etc should be provided by the employer (particulary the items he charges a rental or tool fee upon)

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by hvac_czar

Originally posted by gruvn
A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?




Channel Locks fly where you work? I only own one pair, and my wife opens jars with them... :D



[Edited by hvac_czar on 10-01-2005 at 02:34 PM]

He shows his hackery frequently here, you just have to watch for it.

[gruvn]

Why because I have channel locks ?

Please tell me what is wrong with using channel locks I would love to hear this.

Your sig has got to go dude, it was funny at first but now it is just stupid, it causes a lot of necessary scrolling.