Attic Air Handler Dripping Water into Emergency Pan

[futbole10]

Hello everyone,

I bought a house in Northern Virginia a year and half ago and the attic air handler is filling the emergency pan in about 5-6 weeks of use with the temperature set at 75 during the day and then 72 between 6 pm and 8 am. This unit has a Vision Pro stat on it (TH8321U1006). A week before my summer contract maintenance, I drained 3 gallons of water from the emergency pan when the unit was shut down by the float switch in the pan.

I have a contract for twice a year maintenance with one of the best HVAC companies in the entire DC area. They installed a Trane XL15i with humidifier and Honeywell VisionPro stat (TH8321U1006) last year for us on the heat pump for the main level and basemenet. It is great. It gets the humidity down to 41-42% on days where the heat index hits 105 and works wonderfully in the winter, where it has rarely used the heat strips (staged by the way using a thermometer installed outside).

In the summer checkup, they drained the attic condensate line and then used a high powered shop vac to vacuum the drains where they exit on the side of the house but the unit is still dripping into the emergency pan. I do see drips of water, and lot of it when it is really hot and the upstairs unit is running perpetually to keep the temperature setpoint. When they opened the unit they said the insulation was wet but the plastic pan inside the unit did not appear to be cracked. They said a new p-trap might solve this problem but they can't guarantee it because the unit is so old. I took many pictures of the water and the drip appears to happen underneath the drain port that has a cap on it. The underside of the air handler has droplets on it and the area closer to the drain ports is wet and dripping. Last year, there was water in the pan but that was an insulation issue where it was too loose and once the contractor fixed that, the sweating/water stopped.

I have already put in $600 into this unit and am not sure I want to throw more money at it if a p-trap can't guarantee this water issue will stop. What do you all think? Should I get a p trap? Are those waterless p traps better for this situation?

Please see the pictures.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848763972/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848764920/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848207419/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848765750/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848208315/in/photostream

Video of drip
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848770284/in/photostream

"Trap"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848209083/in/photostream

Water Drip Still Image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848214179/in/photostream

Water Drip Still Image 2
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848771114/in/photostream

[captube]

There is not a trap shown in your pictures.
It has to have a proper trap to drain. I think i would call the service mgr. at the company you use and tell them to send someone who understands how a trap is setup.

[b26440510]

get the unit's installation manual. there should be information on what kind of trap the unit needs, including dimensions.

not sure what that is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848209083/in/photostream

[stonewallred]

get the unit's installation manual. there should be information on what kind of trap the unit needs, including dimensions.

not sure what that is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5848209083/in/photostream

Looks like an access to drain line.

[futbole10]

Looks like an access to drain line.
That line goes down the side of the house and exits. I see water coming from it when the unit is on. I think captube is right-there doesn't look to be a trap at all on this unit.

[b26440510]

saw a post (somewhere) recently about this

http://www.drainplus.com/

[jpsmith1cm]

Interesting....

There is water draining from the main drain and water filling auxiliary pan??

Not sure a trap is going to solve this one.

[b26440510]

When they opened the unit they said the insulation was wet but the plastic pan inside the unit did not appear to be cracked. They said a new p-trap might solve this problem but they can't guarantee it because the unit is so old.

Yikes, yet another "it might not fix it but pay us anyways" quote. If they cant stand behind their diagnosis & solution then you need to find someone else that does.

[tedkidd]

I had this problem. A trap solved it. Sometimes airflow out drain ports prevents proper flow off the coil and water backup.

You can spend a lot of money trying to diagnose this problem, but I'd fix the installation and see if that works first.

Wonder what system static is...

Wonder if this is unconditioned area...

[gravity]

you need a p-trap installed on this unit. also make sure you evap coil is clean. is that a

slant coil or a coil? if the coil is dirty, the condensate will drain down the coil fins and

then shoot off when it hits dirt. the fan will then suck it passed the drainpan. also with

no trap the condensate will stay in the pan and those carrier units dont have insulation

under the pan so it will start to sweat and you will have driplets of water under the pan.

let the unit stay off for a couple days to let the remaining water drain and dry up. install

a ez-trap and then vacuum all the water out. u may need to tear the insulation out of

the unit and put some new in it.

[johnbeck1000]

If that is one of the best company's in the DC area, I feel sorry for the DC area. It looks as if you don't have a trap because the picture you called "p-trap" that isn't a trap at all, in fact I don't know what the hell that is. I would suggest a p trap if it doesn't have one because it should be a little cheaper than a whole new air handler. I would suggest the same things as Gravity's post

[gravity]

your top floor unit had most likely been a problem since day 1. how does the emergency pan look? does it have slimy rusted water in it? or is it clean water and looks like it has never drained in the emergency pan before? are the bottom screws in the a/h rusted out when you remove them? if so then youve had a drain problem for years most likely.

[futbole10]

The emergency pan has white calcium deposits on it. The water is clear but there is no drain from the emergency pan into the drain that goes outside. There is just a float switch that kills the unit when there is 1/2" of water.

I've never touched the a/h panels-my HVAC guys are the only ones who take off the panels or work on it. The screws on the side look ok.

The unit is from September 1997. There is an electronic air cleaner but I don't use the Trion electronic things anymore because my contractor told me just to use the Merv 10 Airbear 5" filters. They did say the coil looked really clean even after almost 14 years. Is it normal to give up on a unit after this amount of time? They tell me frequently that it is not really worth it to keep sinking money into the unit.

I'll take everyone's advice and have them install a trap and see if that works. We had to spend a lot of money for a new Trane unit/humidifier for the downstairs last year but that was worth it because our unit saves us 20% a month and we got the $1500 tax credit.

They installed a smart trap on the new trane unit in the basement and it looks to work ok. Should they install a waterless trap in the attic given the small amount of clearance? Are those better than a regular P trap?

You all are great. Thanks for all the answers.

In general, it is tough to find good and reliable contractors in DC. I used the advice everyone posts on shopping for install quality and not necessarily equipment and from everyone I've talked to, the guys I use are the best. They are expensive as far as cost but in my view, the work they do speaks for itself but then again, I am just a homeowner not a professional. However, when I rented a townhouse, my landlord sent all sorts of HVAC contractors my way so I got to see the entire range of HVAC contractors

[gravity]

well i am also a very reliable contractor in the DC area. your not dumping money into an old system. just put a trap on the thing and go along until the thing breaks. just looking at the coil does no justice. u need to actually look into the fins. i use a flashlight on one side and look for light on the other. carriers have a double or triple layer coil so its a little harder with the light trick. also looking at the pictures you may need to cut some wood out so u can fit a trap up there. use a standard water p-trap. they've been around for many years. ive seen the waterless traps. we actually had one in the parts room. i threw it away b/c it look like a POS with a spring in it.

[gravity]

u say you switched to a media filter. this is a good choice, but may add static to your system. the old EAC elements had very little to no pressure drop across them. adding a media filter is better IMO because the clean air alot better. have them do a static pressure test on the system with the filter in place. u may need a bigger p-trap based on what static you have in the system.

[futbole10]

Thank you for all the great comments.

I went outside and noticed that the condensate line drips at a rate of 1 drop per second when the system is running but this drip rate increases to 3-4 drops/per second when the system shuts off. So it looks like the water inside the a/h really leaves fast when the unit shuts off. I'll have to ask about this too.

Thanks again.

[b26440510]

I went outside and noticed that the condensate line drips at a rate of 1 drop per second when the system is running but this drip rate increases to 3-4 drops/per second when the system shuts off.

I believe that is an indication that your "trap" is not performing correctly.

[HVACTechNC]

A new trap may help, but it may be icing up due to a low refrigerant charge or restrticted airflow. Ice on a coil will not drain off the coil the way water does/should. If water is coming out of the drain, it is reasonable to assume that the line isn't clogged. If the line isnt clogged and the internal coil drain pan isn't cracked or damaged then the only reason I can think of that you would
#1 have wet insulation and
#2 have the water flow rate increase when the unit shuts off
would be if the coil iced up... Hope this helps

[lynn comstock]

u say you switched to a media filter. this is a good choice, but may add static to your system. the old EAC elements had very little to no pressure drop across them. adding a media filter is better IMO because the clean air alot better. have them do a static pressure test on the system with the filter in place. u may need a bigger p-trap based on what static you have in the system. This is a very good bet. The white stuff in the overflow pan is zinc corrosion and the steel is still protected. The high merv filter and the problem are both new.

Put in a standard fliter or reactivate the electronic and see if the leak stops.
This simple test won't cost you a dime. If the leak stops we know that the added pressure drop of the high merv filter created it. A deeper P trap may fix it if there is no other issue with the drain line.

[SoFlaDave]

I would not be surprised if the drain pan had a crack somewhere. Its impossible to know without taking it out and examining it. At 14 yrs old i would not sink much money into it. You may end up replacing the pan, only to have the evap coil start leaking just from being removed.

You can just replace the handler for now and upgrade the outside unit later. Tranes new Hyperion series air handler gives you R22 and 410a compatibility at the flip of a switch.

[tedkidd]

Air under high pressure flowing out the untrapped drain blocks flow and backs up condensate, which overflows/blows out of the pan. Trap will stop this airflow.

[Ron]

don't know about the physical size of that unit but a new more compact model might have a chance of being correctly installed with better service area, p-trap, secondary drain from coil, and aux. drain from pan. If I don't have room to do it that way I won't do it.

[dad211]

Looks like an access to drain line.

its a clean out infront of the eac and they taped the eac power wire to the drain , wonder why people dont hold installers to the same high regard as service techs :.02:

[tedkidd]

its a clean out infront of the eac and they taped the eac power wire to the drain , wonder why people dont hold installers to the same high regard as service techs :.02:

Because pressure is on quick n cheap. Install is fairly redundant. Service requires a lot more variability, diagnostics, etc.

Seems installers may become techs, techs don't go back to being installers.

[gravity]

i am a service tech and also an installer. depends on the company you work for also. i price in the extra labor to make the job look good and also work good. any service call i goto and end up selling a new unit, i measure it up, price it up, make the metal in the shop, and get a crew together and install it.

[futbole10]

We bought the house a year and half ago and I would not have used the company the original homeowners used to install the upstairs (and downstairs unit-replaced last December) unit. We paid a lot for the downstairs Trane and mostly for the quality of installation. The company we use isn't the cheapest but I've been very happy with them.

They are going to come put in a trap on the main but they said there is not enough room to do so on the secondary. Are there any traps that will work with the two copper lines in the way of the secondary?

[ziggyhere]

I know with Trane units, there are certain baffles that need to be installed for a horizontal application. They come with the unit but sometimes get thrown away by the installers. If they don't get installed, it causes water to be blown by the drain pan. I would definately get a p-trap installed. It looks like the unit may need to get raised a few inches so one can get installed. Not a huge deal.

[lynn comstock]

The secondary is best protected by a kill switch that shuts down the AC and the production of condensate water until the problem with the primary drain is corrected. Water damage can be very costly, especially if a good mold growth occurs before the leakage is discovered.

[skibme]

Is the unit out of level?v I have seen units dripping water because of this.

[futbole10]

Hi, the unit is level.

[futbole10]

I want to thank everyone for their help and very good input. My awesome HVAC team put in an EZ Trap hooked up to kill the unit if the trap fails and a regular trap on the secondary. Since then the pan was dry but now a month after the install, there is a little water in the pan. I think it's from condensation with water dripping off the unit where the blower pumps the air into the main ducts. When I feel under there, I can feel droplets of water and these seem to be slowly dripping into the pan. The pan only has a 2 mm of water in it. This is the maximum amount of water in the pan and always in the same place and I've been checking every 4 hours.Is this a small amount of condensation dripping a big deal or something to be expected with an attic HVAC install? Is there anything I can do about it? Is there anything wrong with my unit? Please see photos below.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5938873802/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5938873800/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47067976@N04/5938873798/in/photostream/

[Cooked]

:.02:
...........The pan only has a 2 mm of water in it. This is the maximum amount of water in the pan and always in the same place and I've been checking every 4 hours. Is this a small amount of condensation dripping a big deal or something to be expected with an attic HVAC install?........No......... Is there anything I can do about it?....Yes...... Is there anything wrong with my unit?...Possibly...at least the drainage part.....

The pan under the unit is an emergency overflow pan, any presence of water is a sign of something abnormal meaning the air handler isn't draining properly for whatever reason. I could speculate what that might be all day long but it's really hard to tell without pulling the panels and investigating.

Notice the secondary drain (on the unit) is slightly higher (by design) than the primary. From the looks of the recent pictures the secondary drain is dripping into the emergency pan. This means the pan inside the unit is filling up with enough condensate to flow out the secondary which means the primary isn't draining.

The way I understood the post(s) the primary drain just runs outside and drips on the ground and the emergency pan has no drain line at all. I was always required to run the primary line to a sewer vent pipe in the attic and the emergency line to drip outside and many inspectors required an air vent. However, I am not familiar with the building codes in your area.

I never have liked float switches. More recently "wet" switches are being used and will shut the unit off if they sense even a few drops of water - afterall the pan should be dry.
:.02:

[tedkidd]

i am a service tech and also an installer. depends on the company you work for also. i price in the extra labor to make the job look good and also work good. any service call i goto and end up selling a new unit, i measure it up, price it up, make the metal in the shop, and get a crew together and install it.

Getting a service tech to do your install is nice. They tend to think about coming back and keeping the equipment running, so they take the time to make the install easy to service. This time does cost more.

In the busy seasons a successful company won't have service techs available for install. IMO, the best time to plan replacement is summer or winter.

[futbole10]

:.02:

The pan under the unit is an emergency overflow pan, any presence of water is a sign of something abnormal meaning the air handler isn't draining properly for whatever reason. I could speculate what that might be all day long but it's really hard to tell without pulling the panels and investigating.

Notice the secondary drain (on the unit) is slightly higher (by design) than the primary. From the looks of the recent pictures the secondary drain is dripping into the emergency pan. This means the pan inside the unit is filling up with enough condensate to flow out the secondary which means the primary isn't draining.

The way I understood the post(s) the primary drain just runs outside and drips on the ground and the emergency pan has no drain line at all. I was always required to run the primary line to a sewer vent pipe in the attic and the emergency line to drip outside and many inspectors required an air vent. However, I am not familiar with the building codes in your area.

I never have liked float switches. More recently "wet" switches are being used and will shut the unit off if they sense even a few drops of water - afterall the pan should be dry.
:.02:

The primary runs down the side of the house to drip outside. In Virginia, the current code forbids discharging into the vent stack.

There was a very shallow run trap underneath the airhandler. This was removed when the new electronic EZ Trap and secondary trap were installed. However, last summer there was some sweating from the air handler at the blower fan-just like now-but this was fixed by my contractor taping some insulation that had come loose inside the blower area part and the pan was dry last summer. But this year, there was a lot of water dripping into the pan and with the 2 new traps, there is very little water but what looks like the old sweating problems have returned. Maybe some attic air is getting inside the unit. I have a high end attic fan with a duostat on it (cuts on at anything above 30% humidity/60 degrees) and the attic is very well insulated. I am at a loss as to why this is happening.

[tedkidd]

I have a high end attic fan with a duostat on it (cuts on at anything above 30% humidity/60 degrees) and the attic is very well insulated. I am at a loss as to why this is happening.

Think a continuous supply of hot, humid, turbulent air to your attic might have something to do with it?

Good article on venting attics (http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-9701-measurement-of-attic-temperatures-and-cooling-energy-use-in-vented-and-sealed-attics-in-las-vegas-nevada/view?searchterm=vent)

[tedkidd]

If you like that one, read TOP TEN DUMB THINGS TO DO IN THE SOUTH (http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-015-top-ten-dumb-things-to-do-in-the-south?topic=resources/more-topics/homeowner_resources)

[b26440510]

for what its worth, coming from a homeowner...

looking at your first photo, is the white area of the emergency pan the dry area? If so, its rather an odd shaped wet area. Is the pan level? I wonder if the water in the pan is getting evaporated/dispersed in that area by air coming out of your secondary drain (dont know if your system is positive or negative pressure)?

I guess there's no drain on the emergency pan, which means your secondary air handler drain probably shouldnt be draining into it. I think some folks plug the secondary and shutdown the AC if the primary drain malfunctions. In my eyes, the emergency pan is for unforeseen emergencies such as a failure that lets condensate bypass the condensate system all together, and as such the emergency pan should be plumbed to a conspicuous drain area (especially if its being used under a condensing furnace also) to alert the owner of the failure.

Is the only condensate system shutdown switch the one on the pan? If the pan gets that full you probably should have been alerted/shutdown well before that. I probably would have a shutoff switch plumbed in immediately after the primary drain's exit point and at least one wet switch in the pan. I think that if a pan is wet then something needs looked at.

[futbole10]

for what its worth, coming from a homeowner...

looking at your first photo, is the white area of the emergency pan the dry area? If so, its rather an odd shaped wet area. Is the pan level? I wonder if the water in the pan is getting evaporated/dispersed in that area by air coming out of your secondary drain (dont know if your system is positive or negative pressure)?

I guess there's no drain on the emergency pan, which means your secondary air handler drain probably shouldnt be draining into it. I think some folks plug the secondary and shutdown the AC if the primary drain malfunctions. In my eyes, the emergency pan is for unforeseen emergencies such as a failure that lets condensate bypass the condensate system all together, and as such the emergency pan should be plumbed to a conspicuous drain area (especially if its being used under a condensing furnace also) to alert the owner of the failure.

Is the only condensate system shutdown switch the one on the pan? If the pan gets that full you probably should have been alerted/shutdown well before that. I probably would have a shutoff switch plumbed in immediately after the primary drain's exit point and at least one wet switch in the pan. I think that if a pan is wet then something needs looked at.
Hi-Yes, the white area is dry. I don't know if the pan is level but the airhandler is. From my inspection, the area underneath the blower fan area where it blows cold air out into the ducts is where the condensation is occurring and then slowly dripping into the pan.

Is the only condensate system shutdown switch the one on the pan? If the pan gets that full you probably should have been alerted/shutdown well before that. I probably would have a shutoff switch plumbed in immediately after the primary drain's exit point and at least one wet switch in the pan. I think that if a pan is wet then something needs looked at.

There is one float switch in the pan and an electronic one on the EZ Trap.

[b26440510]

There is one float switch in the pan and an electronic one on the EZ Trap.

Hard to determine from the pics -- is the switch on the EZ trap before or after the trap (the U bend) itself? If its after, what happens if the trap itself gets clogged? I'd have the shutoff switch as close to the air handler as possible, so if anything in the condensate system clogs up, the switch will activate.

[futbole10]

Hard to determine from the pics -- is the switch on the EZ trap before or after the trap (the U bend) itself? If its after, what happens if the trap itself gets clogged? I'd have the shutoff switch as close to the air handler as possible, so if anything in the condensate system clogs up, the switch will activate.
http://www.airtecproducts.com/smarttrap_main.asp

This is the trap they installed.