basement remodel,sizing hot water radiators and venting boiler

[ma35col]

I'm looking to get some radiators (looking at Myson's) for a basement remodel (anyone have any otehr suggestions?). I have no idea what type of BTU/hr output I should be looking for. I also switched oil companies last year so am not sure what type of experience these new guys have yet (they seemed very good on the one service call last winter). Question is how do you size the radiators for the room? Room being heated is going to be one open room size about 20x20. We plan to also add a second zone for the basement as part of this project.

Little backround the house is a 1935 English colonial, little or no insulation in the walls. Fall project includes sealing the attic more thoroughly (there is some insulation up there). Two years we had a new boiler put in while doing a small addition. Boiler is a weil McLain Gold WGO-4. When installed we told them we would be redoing the basement so we wanted it capable of heating down there as well (I hope this is the case). Basement now has minor interior insulation (3/4) foam and 3inches of fiberglass behind sheetrock and stud walls. In the past the heat from the boiler itself kept the basement tolerable but certainly not warm.

That leads to the second question. The boiler has now been enclosed in a smaller room. I know this needs a supply of fresh air and there is a window in this room that I plan to use as a venting source for the boiler. I assume there is some type of fan that can be installed and triggered by the boiler but how exactly does this work and what does it entail?

Thanks guys for any help in advance.

Tom

[Freezeking2000]

I would see if you can get the kit for your burner to draw all the burner air from outside!

[johnsp]

Plenty of makers of panel rads. Burnham, Buderus has units.
You shouldn't need much heat in a basement if it's mostly underground. Get a heat loss calc done to see what the area needs for heat. Usualy, a damper is all you need, no fan. It can be wired into the burner so it only opens when the boiler is firing. The WGO was never available in direct vent, so you can't put a Riello BF or Beckett AFII which has the outside air kits.

[casturbo]

Originally posted by ma35col
I'm looking to get some radiators (looking at Myson's) for a basement remodel (anyone have any otehr suggestions?).

Use copper baseboard heat for your basement, I think that's what you're referring to. When you say radiators, that implies steam heat or the old cast iron radiators that used hot water in them. They're super bulky and IMO, look terrible.


Originally posted by ma35col
I have no idea what type of BTU/hr output I should be looking for.

Have a heat loss calculated on the room, plumbing supply houses routinely do it IF you buy the heat from them (radiators, baseboard, etc).


Originally posted by ma35col
Question is how do you size the radiators for the room? Room being heated is going to be one open room size about 20x20. We plan to also add a second zone for the basement as part of this project.

The radiators put out a certain amount of heat per foot....so the more heat you need, the bigger the radiator or baseboard heat length. Real simple actually. For a WAG on a 20x20 basement room, in the northeast, maybe 20 linear feet of heat (~14,000 btu). Basement loops MOST definately have to be on their own zone. Don't even consider stealing off the upstairs zone(s) to put a bit of heat in the basement. It won't work worth squat.


Originally posted by ma35col
Little backround the house is a 1935 English colonial, little or no insulation in the walls. Fall project includes sealing the attic more thoroughly (there is some insulation up there). Two years we had a new boiler put in while doing a small addition. Boiler is a weil McLain Gold WGO-4. When installed we told them we would be redoing the basement so we wanted it capable of heating down there as well (I hope this is the case).

That boiler is about a 150,000 btu boiler, more than enough boiler for what you have now and adding your new basement zone.



Originally posted by ma35col
That leads to the second question. The boiler has now been enclosed in a smaller room. I know this needs a supply of fresh air and there is a window in this room that I plan to use as a venting source for the boiler. I assume there is some type of fan that can be installed and triggered by the boiler but how exactly does this work and what does it entail?

Thanks guys for any help in advance.

Tom

Just have a fresh air pipe added to your dedicated boiler room....don't have it plumbed directly to the oil burner. When an oil burner uses frigid air to run on, it don't like it....would you like breathing 0° air, or tempered air instead? Using nothing but outside air for combustion has got to kill efficiency too.

[dan sw fl]

Sounds like you have some Gold in your equipment room.

Installation ... 'by the book'.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/GOLD_Oil_Manuals/Wgoboilermanual.pdf

Another baseboard heater mfg:

http://www.slantfin.com/baseboard.html

[ma35col]

Thanks for the replies guys.

As I said though I don't like baseboard. We do have hot water cast iron radiators now throughout the house but I was looking at newer models for the basement. I did however read that because they lose their heat more rapidly it causes the boiler to cycle on and off more often (lowering the efficiency). Can anyone comment on that? The walls have also been close up at this time so plumbing for that would be a major nightmare at this point. I've left a few locations without sheetrock still so the plumbing won't be a problem.

Had the oil tech come in from the company we get our oil from but he didn't have a clue as to heat loss calcs. Is there anyway I can do this calc? This all seems like a pretty easy job I just can't find anyone to do it.

As for the venting. A few of you recommended a kit for this. Anyone know of a kit out there. I've tried contacting both our plumber (no call backs) and the Oil service (not a lot of help). Everyone makes it sound so easy to get someone to come in but that defintely has not been my experience. Unless you buy oil from the companies around here they seem to act like you don't exist and I can't keep switching companies either.

[simpleman]

I would say with that small of a load on one zone by itself
would require a buffer tank,even with all the mass that you have..someone mention gold I believe, you will still short
cycle that boiler even with rads in the basement area.

Speaking of rads I agree keep them all the same thruout.
Look at Burnham they have a nice slenderized cast iron rad
that looks great.

[johnsp]

Remember your basement zone will call for heat less often then the rest of the house, so most of the time the other zone(s) will be calling for heat also. I doubt you'll see any short cycling. Go to the manufacturer's web sites and get the heat output of the panel or cast iron rads you're interested in. You left some sections of the wall open, but you have no idea of how many rads you even need. You can purchase the heating calc software at the top right of this site "HVAC CALC" or check out software @ slantfin.com

But you'll need to find a plumber/hydronics heat contractor thats willing to pipe out the rads and add a thermostat and a zone valve or additional circulator for the basement zone.

I would make look into getting a mechanical widow damper that would only open when the boiler fires, so no need to allow cold air into the basement 24x7. The fan/damper gets wire right to the burner so when it fires, the damper will open. Are you sure the boiler room has no access to another part of the house: garage for example? You could just provide a duct to another open part of the house so that fresh combustion air can be pulled into the room.

[beenthere]

If your buget can handle it, stay with cast iron for the basement also.

[Noel Murdough]

It increases the eficiency of this zone, and of the others, too.



Connect the thermostat so that it brings on this zone, but only the water flow. Don't hook up the end switch that brings on the burner. It works for zone valves AND circ zones. That's why I worded it carefully, that way. With zone valves, even the pump waits for another zone...

The burner only runs when this zone calls AND another zone is calling at the same time. If ONLY this zone calls, the heat from the boiler's last cycle does the job. If that isn't enough, and the zone keeps calling, another zone will call for heat AND bring the burner on.

Voila'! Two zones running together.

That gives the burner a load it can bite into. The customer notices nothing at all different. The other zones BENEFIT from the added short zone.

Nobody loses!

It's called Master Zoning. I kinda love it.

Noel

[johnsp]

Noel's right. I would like to still see a low limit aquastat on the boiler to fire it back up if the boiler water temp drops to 120-130°. If you have more radiator or panel rads then what you need for the space, it will still warm nicely at boiler temps below 180°

[casturbo]

Originally posted by Noel Murdough
....Connect the thermostat so that it brings on this zone, but only the water flow. Don't hook up the end switch that brings on the burner. It works for zone valves AND circ zones. That's why I worded it carefully, that way. With zone valves, even the pump waits for another zone...



Kinda difficult in some heating systems. Take for example my baseboard hot water system with multiple TACO zone valves. There isn't an easy way to hookup that type of 'energization' as you described. Maybe with some crafty wiring, but most complicated, it could be made to function that way though.

Good thought, I like it.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by casturbo

Originally posted by Noel Murdough
....Connect the thermostat so that it brings on this zone, but only the water flow. Don't hook up the end switch that brings on the burner. It works for zone valves AND circ zones. That's why I worded it carefully, that way. With zone valves, even the pump waits for another zone...



Kinda difficult in some heating systems. Take for example my baseboard hot water system with multiple TACO zone valves. There isn't an easy way to hookup that type of 'energization' as you described. Maybe with some crafty wiring, but most complicated, it could be made to function that way though.

Good thought, I like it.



Just disconnect and cap the wire thats on terminal 3. for any zone you want to hold unless another zone, or master zone is calling.

[Noel Murdough]

Guess I wasn't obvious enough.

I thought only homeowners would fail to grasp it.

Noel

[pecmsg]

Noel
You call it a "Master Zoning" we call it a "Slave System" but still the same thing. Basement zone will only supply heat when another zone is calling and still shut down when temperature is reached.


Ma35
One thing to consider if piping is a problem, remove the baseboard going around the room. This will give you 4 to 6" to run the tubing.

Also consider if possible a forced air unit. There again if possible.

[Edited by pecmsg on 09-29-2005 at 09:23 AM]

[ma35col]

Been a while getting back to this one. Weather has gotten much colder but the basement is still maintaining a temp of about 62-66 degrees right now so I'm really thinking I don't need much down there.

Noel your suggestion looks like a great solution. You are right in a homeowner not fully getting it though. If I showed this to a plumber/heating contractor would they most likely understand? I understand what you're saying but does it affect how the main zone upstairs works (meaning does that zone also require both zones to call for heat before it turns on? Also would thermostatic radiator valves on the basement zone be worth it?

Also can anyone give a referral for someone in the Boston area. I'm having one guy come look at it today but based on our phone conversation it doesn't sound encouraging.

Thanks guys

[Noel Murdough]

If not, send him here...

Noel