portable vs wholehouse dehumidifier

[antheo]

Pricing Removed
On the sales brochure apparently whole-house dehumidifiers are more efficient and less costly to operate than portable unit. Is that verified in real life?

I just had my portable LG dehumidifier die and i am wondering if it's really worthwhile getting a whole-house unit.

What would you recommend and what brand?

[REP]

Its darn near impossible to give you good advice without knowing where you are.
If you live in a high humidity area its well worth the cost.If you only use it a few weeks out of the year then a portable is a better option.If you need a whole house unit there are serveral good ones.The only one I know about is the Aprilaire one .It is carried by HVAC wholesalers all over the country.The Company is old and very trusted and quality minded.

[skippedover]

Kind of like asking about the difference in a unicycle versus a motorcycle. They're made to do two entirely different jobs. The portable unit is quite satisfactory for one room. But if you need to have the whole house done or the entire basement, for example, then you need a system sized accordingly. Enter the whole house dehumidifier.

It's simply a matter of understanding that not all appliances are made for the same job, despite their using the same technology.

[antheo]

i am in Northern Virginia where humidity gets high from mid-Spring to the Fall.
In the basement I get, ~60% humidity during dry weather and it reaches the 70% when it rains.

[teddy bear]

i am in Northern Virginia where humidity gets high from mid-Spring to the Fall.
In the basement I get, ~60% humidity during dry weather and it reaches the 70% when it rains.
For the ultimate in whole house humidity control, attach the whole house dehumidifier dry air supply to the air handler supply. Connect the dehu return to an open part of the home. This type of install allow whole dehumidification without operating the blower of the air handler. It is important to have a powerful blower in the dehu to overcome the duct pressure of the air handler. ULtra-Aire WHdehus can operate with .4-.7 in.WG duct pressure. I would also investigate adding fresh make-up air to the home. Most home do not get enough fresh air during calm winds and mild temps. UA is the granddaddy of the WHDehus and has the highest efficiency.
If you can not afford the installation of the UA, consider the non ducted Santa Fe dehu for free standing humidity control. Testing shows that maintaining <50%RH in an open part of the home with routine circulation of air by the air handler is also effective and controlling the whole house. There will be more noise in the area where the dehu is located. Limiting the dehu operation to hours when the area is not used also makes the free standing dehu more acceptable.
The Ultra-Aire/Santa Fe dehu are the world leader for efficiency and reliability. I am sure there are other heavy duty dehus that are acceptable. I work for the U-A/SF.

Regards TB

[pstu]

I might add the Santa Fe line is a stand alone appliance and does not require nearly the same installation as a whole house dehumidifier integrated into the existing duct system. There is provision to add simple ducting to the Santa Fe at a later time if desired -- although the controls vs. Ultra-Aire are entirely different. Cost of the Santa Fe line lies neatly between the two the OP mentioned.

If you want energy efficiency you might look at the ampere draw of each dehu, or the pints/kwh rating. This is where the Thermastor product usually shines.

Hope this helps -- Pstu

[antheo]

Do not post pricing. Please read the site rules.

[antheo]

Is that normal for the Lennox HCWH-065 dehumidifier to cost $2000 more than the Aprilaire 1770A and Honeywell TrueDRY™ DH150 ?

I am wondering if it is worth getting someone from Ultra Aire. Is the pricing of Ultra-Aire close to Aprilaire or closer to Lennox?

[Dad]

Is that normal for the Lennox HCWH-065 dehumidifier to cost $2000 more than the Aprilaire 1770A and Honeywell TrueDRY™ DH150 ?

I am wondering if it is worth getting someone from Ultra Aire. Is the pricing of Ultra-Aire close to Aprilaire or closer to Lennox?


Thanks for the reported post but this is a comparison price difference. Poster asked permission before posting.


thx

[hvacvegas]

What are you trying to dehumidify, and for what purpose?

I use dehumidifier that my parents had back in the eary 80s. It's about the size of a computer tower, and it dehumidifies my basement. It's good for what it does.

So, again, what are you attempting to acheive?

[antheo]

What are you trying to dehumidify, and for what purpose?

I use dehumidifier that my parents had back in the eary 80s. It's about the size of a computer tower, and it dehumidifies my basement. It's good for what it does.

So, again, what are you attempting to acheive?

Thanks for asking. I had a $200 portable dehumidifier that lasted a a year and half. It did a good job but needed to be frequently emptied, was noisy (even though rated a one of the quieter ones) and consumed a significant amount of electricity.

My basement gets to 70% of humidity easily right now. 64% if the outside humidity is low for several days. I read the specs on several whole house dehumidifier, saw that they are more power efficient and don't require to be emptied manually so I am trying to determine if it's worth installing a whole-house dehumidifier.

Have you considered that option as well?

[pstu]

Antheo,

It's been mentioned before, but have you looked at the Santa Fe (Thermastor) line as well? They are sold at retail and have a price point significantly different from the whole house models.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[antheo]

isn't the Santa Fe the same as the Sani Dry?

http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/comparisons/sanidry.html
http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/images/stories/sanidry.jpg


http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/comparisons/santafeclassic.html
http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/images/stories/products/santafe.jpg

[johnsonj]

You mentioned emptying it often. A lot of mid range portable units can be equipped with pump kits.

[dan sw fl]

So what are your NEEDS and Budget?

Is your desired R.H. ~ 54% ?

Whole- house Dehumidifier might cost 10 to 20 times a Portable unit.

[antheo]

So what are your NEEDS and Budget?

Is your desired R.H. ~ 54% ?

Whole- house Dehumidifier might cost 10 to 20 times a Portable unit.

desired R.H ~ 50-55%.
Budget: I am learning right now what' on the market

[dan sw fl]

Condensate pump is ~ $ 40.

[teddy bear]

Is that normal for the Lennox HCWH-065 dehumidifier to cost $2000 more than the Aprilaire 1770A and Honeywell TrueDRY™ DH150 ?

I am wondering if it is worth getting someone from Ultra Aire. Is the pricing of Ultra-Aire close to Aprilaire or closer to Lennox?

Ultra-Aire pricing is similar to the AA or Lennox. The difference is in the complexity of the install or the margin. UA is the granddaddy of the Wh dehus. It is most efficient and reliable. Any a/c contractor can purchase the the UA from his wholesaler or direct from the factory.
It takes a day to install a whole house dehu properly. The Santa Fe free standing dehu is less money with reliablilty and efficiency of the UA. In a deluxe home, get the UA for convient, invisible preformance. With the Santa Fe parked in the open part of the home or basement, the a/c fan will need to used for circulation of the dry air throughout the home.
Any dehu is better and required for maintaining <50%RH when the outdoor dew points are +60^F outside and there is low/no cooling load.
Regards TB

[pstu]

isn't the Santa Fe the same as the Sani Dry?

http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/comparisons/sanidry.html

http://www.basementdehumidifiers.net/comparisons/santafeclassic.html


I cannot find any difference. While nobody has told me so, I think they must be the same. Thermastor has OEM-ed its products to Honeywell, could be to other companies too.

Regards -- Pstu

[antheo]

I just got an email from someone at "Santa Fe / Phoenix / Ultra-Aire"



These are different units. The Sani-Dry XP is manufactured in China, making it very different from the Santa Fe Classic. Performance numbers may be similar but cheaper internal parts and service work make a big difference in the reliability of this product.

[hvacvegas]

How big of a basement?

What kind of basement?
Block, creek rock, poured?
Finished, unfinished?

I'd go Ultra-air myself....if I had the money.

If you have allergies, or want better whole house control, go ultra-air.

If your just trying to dehumidy the basement, and only the basement, go sante-fe.

Do your basement walls leak?
Live near a large body of water?

[antheo]

- How big of a basement? : ~1500 sqf
- What kind of basement? Block, creek rock, poured? Brick I believe.
- Finished, unfinished?: finished with hardwood floor.
- Allergies: wife to pollen
- Main goal : dehumidify the basement
- Do your basement walls leak? Not that i am aware of.
- Live near a large body of water? No

[pstu]

I would like to see you buy the energy efficient model, and that will steer you toward the Thermastor Santa Fe rather than Aprilaire's counterpart. Know that the 150 pint/day Thermastor is available and note it is even more energy efficient. And I would avoid the Chinese knockoff like the plague until it has been in the US market 5 years and earned a record of quality.

According to my homeowner experience in a very different climate (S.Texas), you will see some humidity reduction in the main house even though a Santa Fe will be in the basement. There will be some air interchange between house and basement in any event, and I believe any moderate AC runtime can do a lot to increase that air exchange. The way humidity travels through the house is different than the way heat and cold do.

Plus you have the accessory kit available in the future to connect the Santa Fe to ducting if you need it. To me that is a good "Plan B". I cannot tell you what to do, but those are my thoughts.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[hvacvegas]

- How big of a basement? : ~1500 sqf
- What kind of basement? Block, creek rock, poured? Brick I believe.
- Finished, unfinished?: finished with hardwood floor.
- Allergies: wife to pollen
- Main goal : dehumidify the basement
- Do your basement walls leak? Not that i am aware of.
- Live near a large body of water? No

whole house dehumidifer, hooked up to the duct.

[pstu]

whole house dehumidifer, hooked up to the duct.
OP has a basement, why not a basement dehu hooked up to the same duct?

[hvacvegas]

OP has a basement, why not a basement dehu hooked up to the same duct?

Show me model #'s.

[pstu]

Show me model #'s.


4021453

4028607

http://www.dehumidifierexperts.com/product.php?p=thermastor_4021453&product=113341

[hvacvegas]

4021453

4028607

http://www.dehumidifierexperts.com/product.php?p=thermastor_4021453&product=113341

Sure.

But I wouldn't put the supply and return next to each other like that.

No science to back that statement up.

I'd just be worried about cycling.

I'd also run the outdoor air.

[antheo]

Is there a method or formula to determine the power of the dehumidifier in order to select the most appropriate wholehouse dehumidifier model?
I'd think that with size of the basement (~1,500sqt), the current humidity level (64%), the humidity level targeted (50-55%) it could be possible to basement to determine if a 65 pint, 90, 100 or 150 pints per day model is best.

[pstu]

The method I have seen is sizing by sqft, which is practically the same as saying a method barely exists. Not enough information is available to make a science out of it.

I would be tempted to steer you toward the one with the highest energy efficiency, which happens to be the newest model at 150 pints. The 100 pint/day Thermastor model is the oldest design, has proven itself to be very well engineered. But I think the other two are also good. There is a lot more opinion than science in the answer to you question.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[teddy bear]

Sizing dehumidifiers is about the amount of moisture per hour that you want to remove. Figure that the outside dew points are usually about 75^F max with the cfm of outside that infiltrates or is ventilated, plus the number of occupants, and finally the interior desired dew points. Basements with carpet on concrete may need a 50^F dew point. Carpet in a slab on grade home may need a 55^F dew point.
100 cfm of fresh air infiltration/ventilation is a fresh air change in 6 hours for a 3,000 sqft home maintained at 75^F, 50%RH, which is 55^F dew point is 4.4 lbs. of dehumidification per hour. Add 4 occupants at .5 lbs. per hour 2 lbs. per hour. Total 6.4 lbs. per hour. A 150 pint per day dehumidifier is the most you would need. Also consider that a properly setup a/c on a hot day will not need any dehumidifier. A slab on grade home may need a 90 pint per day dehu while a basement/crawlspace home would use the 150 pint per day dehu.
A 2,500 sqft home slab on grade without fresh air air may get by with a 70 pint per day dehu and and have <50%RH most of the time.
Regards TB

[dan sw fl]

The method I have seen is sizing by sqft, which is practically the same as saying a method barely exists. Not enough information is available to make a science out of it.

But I think the other two are also good. There is a lot more opinion than science in the answer to your question.



The SCIENCE is quite specific: PSCHROMETRICS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics

The only real unknown is INFILTRATION.
One would do well to try to establish the leakage rate with a blower door test.

In lieu of actual testing, I would say that the
____Air Change per Hour (A.C.H.)
______ could be estimated as
__________ 0.30 + Residence Age (# years old /100)

10 year old house = 0.40
20 _______________ 0.50
30 year old house = 0.60
...
80 year old house = 1.10

:.02:
W.A.G. can give a reasonable perception,
__ provide a methodology and yield realistic results.

[pstu]

OK, I accept your principles. I thought psychrometrics would be too "out there" for a potential customer to understand (usually).

Let me mention some pros and cons. With HVAC we have some very nice "black boxes" built in software to make things doable. Using Manual J a person can responsibly arrive at the right answer by making simple measurements and telling the truth to a number of questions. He can do that without understanding the science of heat transfer behind it. He can even arrive close to the right answer having no knowledge of certain inputs, such as infiltration.

I don't think anyone has done that for dehumidifiers. And I think it is less necessary than with HVAC. A basement dehu is an appliance, you can buy it on brand name, plug it in and thereafter pay little attention to it. I don't even think the downside to making the wrong dehu choice is all that big. Can you make the argument that choosing the 65 pint/day model, or the 150, will lead to significant drawbacks?

Lastly, the Thermastor advertising materials use sqft per model, so at least a more precise method seems not to have permeated the advertising materials. Why not keep things maximally simple for the customer side of things?

Best wishes -- Pstu

[antheo]

Can you make the argument that choosing the 65 pint/day model, or the 150, will lead to significant drawbacks?

Best wishes -- Pstu

good question. I am trying to avoid overkill that would initially cost more and might consume more power. Especially that i had a 45 pints portable dehumidifier and it was doing an OK job so i am thinking that a 90 pints whole-house should be ok.