Pipe Temperatures

[RussellHarju]

This is a survey on when you take pipe temperatures.

Do you take pipe temperatures without your gauges hooked up as a quick check?

If you answered yes to this question, what type of instrument do you use and what is the reason for the quick check?

[Realist]

Little one warm... Big one cold and sweating if I am. Fast hit and run its workin :censored: REALLY JUST KIDDIN But it works to some extent , most of my no cooling call are just office people Remember we live in 68 to 72 degrees. Some like it 68 some 72 ... Ever deal with office women ? Especially the one under the diffuser? although nothing to do with thread ( sorry venting ) . Cooper temp probe is the one I use. And gauges also unless hit and run

[itsiceman]

You need air temps along with pipe temps.
Russ if your looking for new product ideas I like the testo 905-T2 but some improvements would be nice,
backlit display
battery door with a screw
possibility to take a measurement and hold then bump the display like a list so you can take multiple reading sorta like a old fashioned calculator.
Since it is a hand held device you can use smaller numbers and get it closer to read.
HTH :putergreet:

[kamikaze126]

see superclamp thread

[RussellHarju]

see superclamp thread

This is for input for product development and I'd appreciate it if you could post your opinion here to help us develop a better product. Thanks.

[RussellHarju]

You need air temps along with pipe temps.
Russ if your looking for new product ideas I like the testo 905-T2 but some improvements would be nice,
backlit display
battery door with a screw
possibility to take a measurement and hold then bump the display like a list so you can take multiple reading sorta like a old fashioned calculator.
Since it is a hand held device you can use smaller numbers and get it closer to read.
HTH :putergreet:

This is for a much smaller product and what i really want to know if guys take quick measurements before doing any analysis to get an idea of what may be wrong. Sort of a quick check to get his plan of attack for diagnostics.

[gonefishing]

If the SPK1 had a pipe clamp on it also, would be great for getting Approach,
line temps and insertion temps in duct work and Petes Plug applications, etc.

Just not the current clamp design, don't like that one..........GF..:.02:

[Moparmyway]

I use my Fluke 68is IR temp gun for very quick readings. I understand that its not exactely the same as a thermocouple that is wrapped in insulation, but its within a few degrees. This allows me to get a great feel for the system without attaching or hooking up anything.

[itsiceman]

This is for a much smaller product and what i really want to know if guys take quick measurements before doing any analysis to get an idea of what may be wrong. Sort of a quick check to get his plan of attack for diagnostics.

You can't get much smaller than the 905's Russ
Its a pocket thermometer with three AAA so you never need to change them (another plus)

[dextronfleet195]

Hey Russ. I use your clamp ATC2 on my meters and SMAN2. Wish it had 1) better temp resistance than it does. I have broke the ends off many of these when checking -20 degrees, and just melted two when I was checking a discharge line temp.They melt at 250 degrees.The compresssor won't be far behind. 2)Make different sizes. I need one for 1/4" to 5/8" lines about the size of a 5/8" imp tubing cutter. Also a 3/4" to 1 1/8" about the size also of a small tubing cutter. I ran into a situation on a case that none of my clamps would fit and I couldn't get my hands in there to wrap a probe on the 7/8" line.
Also put some aerogel mix behind the sensor plate to stop the clamp handle from messing up the reading. (Google aerogel- it's awesome). Other tan that I have few opinions.

[itsiceman]

Interesting.... Which product and where did you get it Dex? http://www.aerogel.com/products/overview-product.html
Will it absorb moisture if you get it wet?

[Makinhole]

I would like to see wireless k type clamps to use with my NEW SMAN3 so I could take more accurate superheat readings from the outlet of the evaporator coil while I am at the condenser where my gauges are hooked up. Thanks for listening. :cheers:

[dextronfleet195]

Itsiceman, got the aerogel on ebay, but in native form is too brittle. However, you can get it mixed with fiberglass pad which is possibly stronger but not as good an insulator. Couldn't hurt to try some.

[RussellHarju]

I would like to see wireless k type clamps to use with my NEW SMAN3 so I could take more accurate superheat readings from the outlet of the evaporator coil while I am at the condenser where my gauges are hooked up. Thanks for listening. :cheers:

Later this month we will have a product that can take wireless wetbulb measurements. The part number is the ARH5. What you'll do is hook that up to a wireless transmitter (ET2W) and the transmitter will send the wet bulb temp outside to a receiver (part number EH4W). All of these products will be available later this month so solve this problem. keep your eye out on our website.

[RussellHarju]

Hey Russ. I use your clamp ATC2 on my meters and SMAN2. Wish it had 1) better temp resistance than it does. I have broke the ends off many of these when checking -20 degrees, and just melted two when I was checking a discharge line temp.They melt at 250 degrees.The compresssor won't be far behind. 2)Make different sizes. I need one for 1/4" to 5/8" lines about the size of a 5/8" imp tubing cutter. Also a 3/4" to 1 1/8" about the size also of a small tubing cutter. I ran into a situation on a case that none of my clamps would fit and I couldn't get my hands in there to wrap a probe on the 7/8" line.
Also put some aerogel mix behind the sensor plate to stop the clamp handle from messing up the reading. (Google aerogel- it's awesome). Other tan that I have few opinions.

Great info dex. Thanks! Do you ever just need a quick pipe temp measurement before you hook up your gauges or do any diagnostics. Maybe just to get an idea of what is the root of the problem?

[dextronfleet195]

Hey Russ, most of the time I do refrigeration work. I'm checking superheat, subcooling and you need pressure as well as temp. I do a lot of air temp checking and lately because of POE oil have to do a fair amount of differential temp checking because of partially plugged driers. Ice makers I basically look at the ice pattern which will tell you half the problem without any meter at all. Now the wireless probe which you can hook up to a sman is what I'm really looking for. Just let it have a 300 foot range- I've already got an Omega wireless that goes 75 foot, and that's not enough to go through walk in boxes and rooftops or store walls also.

[mason]

Russell, I work in residential and light commercial. I always hook up my gauges and check superheat and subcool. I use analogs with the srh2 digital psychrometer for pipe temps. I think the srh2 is a great tool but it would be even better with 2 k type plugs and the ability to show both line temps simultaneously. This would also make it so that you could check supply and return temp simultaneously as well. You guys probably already have a dual plug temp meter but I think it should come on the srh2 as well because we always look to carry as few tools as possible if we can help it. I also second a pipe clamp that can fit into smaller spaces. I've seen your new line of clamps have the spring break through the plastic when guys squeeze at the end of the handles. Two out of 6 did this at our shop. On the wireless scale it's not a biggie but with how beefy and tough the scale is I would like to see the plastic handle come with a rubber skin for protection from drops, just like how the srh2 had a rubber outer skin/boot.

[yellowirenut]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWDflq6YbTg-Y6lKE1UGvmSjE9Pc3o5YSJFlWkiWom_jyOaiCmxQ
beer can cold?

Right? No?

[Dr.phil]

Russell, here's what I would like to know. How fast can you make it read? Could you make something read almost instantly? Non contacts aren't accurate enough for linesets. How about something you just touch briefly to get an accurate reading? I would buy one.

[KLEINman]

never really did this, every call i go on i bring gauges and a thermometer. I use the copper sh66a, great meter.

[VTP99]

If the SPK1 had a pipe clamp on it also, would be great for getting Approach,
line temps and insertion temps in duct work and Petes Plug applications, etc.
Just not the current clamp design, don't like that one..........GF..:.02:
I use my SPK1 in the liquid line well of some Lennox models to figure Approach. Made to order.

[energy star]

I would like a small snap on thermocouple, You could make it so you spin a stainless steel spring clamp to the size pipe you want to measure and snap it on. I also like a quick connect single pressure gauge to get a quick read of the pressures. Also, a small clamp is need to hold a thermocouple to the top and side of a condensing unit. One that is designed for that application. Then you need to design a hook system to hold all the instruments you sell us that hangs on the indoor or outdoor unit that will keep all our instruments off the ground, sorta like a small base station to hold meters and gauges.

But yes, a small service pack tote system would be nice to get a quick sense of what the system is doing fast before we drag out all the tools. I also think you should manufacture a probe to take more accurate air measurements in the duct air stream. If you took the idea from the magnetic probe static tips and used something like that you would pull out a small telescopic thermocouple that would protrude into the duct system say about twelve inches (or what ever you pull out) and have a magnetic base would be so much more easier to manage.

I have so many ideas.....let me have a set of SMAN3 and I'll share them with you.........:cheers:

[itsiceman]

Russell, here's what I would like to know. How fast can you make it read? Could you make something read almost instantly? Non contacts aren't accurate enough for linesets. How about something you just touch briefly to get an accurate reading? I would buy one.

The 905-T2 will stabilize in about three seconds or less.
You can measure SH and SC fairly accurately with temps alone.
I use this one daily but can invision a better design built from this meters design.


http://sportversand.ski-man-shop.de/WebRoot/Store/Shops/es103922_SKI-MAN/499F/0C02/2B15/477C/37E5/50ED/8960/FE89/39-905-600_Web.jpg

http://www.testo.com/online/img/products/normal/regular/highres/0560_9056_03.jpg

[chuckcrj]

Russell if you made a quick responding pen type probe for surface temps, I would buy it. Something that can clip in my pocket that I could take quick, accurate surface temp readings would be a huge value.

As said above, you can get SH without pressures.

[Dr.phil]

The 905-T2 will stabilize in about three seconds or less.
You can measure SH and SC fairly accurately with temps alone.
I use this one daily but can invision a better design built from this meters design.


http://sportversand.ski-man-shop.de/WebRoot/Store/Shops/es103922_SKI-MAN/499F/0C02/2B15/477C/37E5/50ED/8960/FE89/39-905-600_Web.jpg

http://www.testo.com/online/img/products/normal/regular/highres/0560_9056_03.jpg
Thats what I'm talking about. Maybe something that fits in your pocket. Or incorperate it in another tool.

[hvacrmedic]

Russell if you made a quick responding pen type probe for surface temps, I would buy it. Something that can clip in my pocket that I could take quick, accurate surface temp readings would be a huge value.

As said above, you can get SH without pressures.

How would you go about that on a typical cased coil with a pen type probe?

[chuckcrj]

How would you go about that on a typical cased coil with a pen type probe?

Wouldn't be very easy or accurate in that situation. I was thinking of walk ins where the evap tubing is readily accessible.

[itsiceman]

Russell if you made a quick responding pen type probe for surface temps, I would buy it. Something that can clip in my pocket that I could take quick, accurate surface temp readings would be a huge value.

As said above, you can get SH without pressures.


How would you go about that on a typical cased coil with a pen type probe?For a quick check wouldn't you focus on how the highside is running and just air temps across the evap coil anyway.
You can be running perfect SH with a messed up system.

[itsiceman]

Hey Dex Did you see the new Cooper thermocouple pipe strap in the RSES Journal?
Looks just like the Cooper 4011 thermistor pipe strap.
Bet you could get rid of the strap and make a small clamp out of it for those sizes you wanted. Not sure if it will do a hot discharge line with out melting. I haven't seen the spec but the 4011 isn't all that high.

[itsiceman]

Found it says 300 on the top end

http://www.cooperinstrument.com/productspecsheet.asp?pid=381

[RussellHarju]

Russell if you made a quick responding pen type probe for surface temps, I would buy it. Something that can clip in my pocket that I could take quick, accurate surface temp readings would be a huge value.

As said above, you can get SH without pressures.

This is the type of thing we thinking just for quick checks. I imagine a tech doing a basic walk around to get his bearings on the system and taking some quick measurements to get an idea of where to start the diagnostics.

To do the diagnostics he probably wouldn't be using the same pen tool, and would probably want to have his gauges, pipeclamps, airflow instruments, etc. to properly diagnose the system.

Am i on the right track about how you guys do the job?

[RussellHarju]

Russell, I work in residential and light commercial. I always hook up my gauges and check superheat and subcool. I use analogs with the srh2 digital psychrometer for pipe temps. I think the srh2 is a great tool but it would be even better with 2 k type plugs and the ability to show both line temps simultaneously. This would also make it so that you could check supply and return temp simultaneously as well. You guys probably already have a dual plug temp meter but I think it should come on the srh2 as well because we always look to carry as few tools as possible if we can help it. I also second a pipe clamp that can fit into smaller spaces. I've seen your new line of clamps have the spring break through the plastic when guys squeeze at the end of the handles. Two out of 6 did this at our shop. On the wireless scale it's not a biggie but with how beefy and tough the scale is I would like to see the plastic handle come with a rubber skin for protection from drops, just like how the srh2 had a rubber outer skin/boot.

Great info. I like the idea of have 3 temp measurements on one meter.

[Dr.phil]

This is the type of thing we thinking just for quick checks. I imagine a tech doing a basic walk around to get his bearings on the system and taking some quick measurements to get an idea of where to start the diagnostics.

To do the diagnostics he probably wouldn't be using the same pen tool, and would probably want to have his gauges, pipeclamps, airflow instruments, etc. to properly diagnose the system.

Am i on the right track about how you guys do the job?

Exactly, can you have one by the end of the month?:bump:

[itsiceman]

This is the type of thing we thinking just for quick checks. I imagine a tech doing a basic walk around to get his bearings on the system and taking some quick measurements to get an idea of where to start the diagnostics.

To do the diagnostics he probably wouldn't be using the same pen tool, and would probably want to have his gauges, pipeclamps, airflow instruments, etc. to properly diagnose the system.

Am i on the right track about how you guys do the job?
If the sensor will work just as good reading at reading air and liquid temps you will have something. Pipe temps alone is not enough info for a meaningful quick check. The testo works well for all three but the whole thing is fragile. Also would like to see a sliding shield for taking surface measurements around air movement and exposed for air temps. I think one sensor only especially if it is a TC is the only way to go with this. It's more accurate for taking differential temps. in the same environment.

[RussellHarju]

If the sensor will work just as good reading at reading air and liquid temps you will have something. Pipe temps alone is not enough info for a meaningful quick check. The testo works well for all three but the whole thing is fragile. Also would like to see a sliding shield for taking surface measurements around air movement and exposed for air temps. I think one sensor only especially if it is a TC is the only way to go with this. It's more accurate for taking differential temps. in the same environment.

Good info. Thanks!

[darctangent]

First let me say that I think it's absolutely brilliant of Fieldpiece to use HVAC-Talk as a sounding board for product development. I think there are a bunch of great creative guys here that would love to see some of their ideas realized and/or wants and needs met by a instrument company, so thank you Fieldpeice! I hope this proves worthwhile to you.



If the sensor will work just as good reading at reading air and liquid temps you will have something. Pipe temps alone is not enough info for a meaningful quick check. The testo works well for all three but the whole thing is fragile. Also would like to see a sliding shield for taking surface measurements around air movement and exposed for air temps. I think one sensor only especially if it is a TC is the only way to go with this. It's more accurate for taking differential temps. in the same environment.
Double down on the dittos for Iceman's post. If we are talking resi forced air application, then it really needs to do both air and pipe(surface) temps.

Let me firm up my concept of how this might work. First, the format of a retractable pen comes to mind, using the outer case to protect the sensor from damage. You click the "pen" and the sensor pops into view, and it turns on. It should be noted that the sensor, what ever it's makeup should be isolated from other masses to improve speed and accuracy of the reading. (I am aware that this is intended to be a fairly low budget item, but I would suggest some effort to do what can be done. Please see the testo and also the Fluke 80pk-8 as an example of trying to minimize thermal bridging) You can use the testo 550 pipe clamp as an example of how NOT to do it.

The sensor could be attached to the end of an collapsible pole (think 70's style antenna) so that it could extend into the duct something like 8-12" for air readings. It would be a plus if it had two additional features-

1) some kind of sharp point for cutting a small hole in the canvas connector.

2) memory for four readings- Return Air, Supply Air, Liquid Line, Suction Line

could be powered by AAA or button cell, AAA would be better.


BTW, I don't do a "walk around" currently, but if I had a tool like this I might!


I have been interested in somebody producing a dual temp thermometer for RA/SA for a while now, this has got me wondering if I should explain the idea to you Russell! I think it would be right up Fieldpeice's alley.

[itsiceman]

Russ is the SIL2 I/R pen style for these "pipe temperatures" you were asking about or is there still a true contact version in the works?

http://www.fieldpiece.com/images/stories/SIL2-SRC-product-tmb.jpg


http://www.fieldpiece.com/PDF/Manuals/Opman-SIL2-web.pdf

[chuckcrj]

Russ is the SIL2 I/R pen style for these "pipe temperatures" you were asking about or is there still a true contact version in the works?

http://www.fieldpiece.com/images/stories/SIL2-SRC-product-tmb.jpg


http://www.fieldpiece.com/PDF/Manuals/Opman-SIL2-web.pdf

I'm listening... I was wondering just a few days ago if anything came of it. I'm not interested in an IR type.

[RussellHarju]

Russ is the SIL2 I/R pen style for these "pipe temperatures" you were asking about or is there still a true contact version in the works?

http://www.fieldpiece.com/images/stories/SIL2-SRC-product-tmb.jpg


http://www.fieldpiece.com/PDF/Manuals/Opman-SIL2-web.pdf

No the IR really can't be used easily for pipe temps. Because the surface is metallic and reflects the light it won't give you accurate readings. And even if you cover with dull tape the it's difficult to measure a small area on a rounded pipe accurately. IR is meant for flat dull surfaces and usually just a "check".

[itsiceman]

Well if a contact version is in the works PLEASE no flashlight or laser......
.......Would like all battery/space dedicated to the temp function.

[RussellHarju]

Well if a contact version is in the works PLEASE no flashlight or laser......
.......Would like all battery/space dedicated to the temp function.

Thanks for the suggestions Iceman.

[pageyjim]

This is for a much smaller product and what i really want to know if guys take quick measurements before doing any analysis to get an idea of what may be wrong. Sort of a quick check to get his plan of attack for diagnostics.

Are you talking about something like this?

http://72.21.207.34/Supco-PT100-Digital-Surface-Thermometer/dp/B004XS0X20

I'm not a fan of Supco but I would find it useful. Testo has a similar one but it looks too expensive and flimsy imo.

Also are you getting good feedback on your wireless system?

[itsiceman]

Thanks for posting that. I haven't seen that one.
RTD sensor with .2 ˚F surface temp accuracy :cheers:
Its worth a shot. I'll let you know how it works.

[darctangent]

Are you talking about something like this?

http://72.21.207.34/Supco-PT100-Digital-Surface-Thermometer/dp/B004XS0X20

I'm not a fan of Supco but I would find it useful. Testo has a similar one but it looks too expensive and flimsy imo.

Also are you getting good feedback on your wireless system?

That's ok are far as it goes, but there's no air temps with that, so not really.

[kangaroogod]

Great thread. I ordered my sman 3,yesterday and can't wait for it to arrive. Thanks for all the Info!

[RussellHarju]

Great thread. I ordered my sman 3,yesterday and can't wait for it to arrive. Thanks for all the Info!

Thanks! Let us know how you like it. And if you have any questions feel free to contact me.

[pageyjim]

Thanks for posting that. I haven't seen that one.
RTD sensor with .2 ˚F surface temp accuracy :cheers:
Its worth a shot. I'll let you know how it works.

I received mine a couple days ago. Pleased with the performance. Responds as fast as my Fluke 52 and pipe probe. It is accurate, though does not show in tenths of a degree . The little piece on the battery cover broke the first time I put a battery in.

http://72.21.207.34/Supco-PT100-Digital-Surface-Thermometer/dp/B004XS0X20

[itsiceman]

I received mine a couple days ago. Pleased with the performance. Responds as fast as my Fluke 52 and pipe probe. It is accurate, though does not show in tenths of a degree . The little piece on the battery cover broke the first time I put a battery in.

http://72.21.207.34/Supco-PT100-Digital-Surface-Thermometer/dp/B004XS0X20
Is the metal sensor fixed or does it slide into the case when measuring?

[joemach]

Russ,

Thanks for allowing us to help to develop the tools that we need to do our job better.

Here is a product that I like but just does not last. I have been through 3 of them in less than a year and will not buy another one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4005I-Cooper-Cordless-Pipe-Clamp-Temperature-Instrument-/140556750278?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3D UA%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D200385488283%26ps%3D63%26clk id%3D8530008845941013808

[pageyjim]

Is the metal sensor fixed or does it slide into the case when measuring?

It is fixed. It is larger than I expected. I am sure they gave the dimensions, I guess it just didn't register. The battery cover broke first time I put a battery in. The box talks about a cover but there was none just the device. I am very happy with its performance though. Seems as fast as my Fluke but does not display in tenth's of a degree. I got the "hi" temp version, I think it is 250 degrees. It is handy, I really am just using it on pm's. If I suspect a problem I go for the Fluke 52.

[jim bergmann]

I would like to see wireless k type clamps to use with my NEW SMAN3 so I could take more accurate superheat readings from the outlet of the evaporator coil while I am at the condenser where my gauges are hooked up. Thanks for listening. :cheers:

In order to measure evaporator superheat you would have to measure the pressure and the temperature at the same location as there is a pressure drop in the line between the suction service valve and the evaporator outlet.

When I want to check the superheat at the outlet, AI typically pump down the system and install a braze in access fitting at the evaporator outlet. Later if the service requires service this is also a great place to install your vacuum gauge.

If you remember the old Sporlan T& P charts if you measured suction pressure at the condenser you had to add 2-3 psi to the reading then convert to saturation temp to determine the superheat. This however is only a guess. A kinked suction line, short radius fittings, not reaming the line, under sizing or excessive length would all impact performance.

Why did they used to do that? Systems were engineered. Today they are to often just "built".