Gosh Darn it!! Goodman strikes again!!

[simplyrollin]

I installed a two system changeout at a customers home a year and a half ago. Goodman 13 seer heat pump systems 410. I go back today for a no cooling call. Both freaking evaporators are leaking. Its freaking embarassing walking back into the house and trying to explain that your new systems both have leaking evaporator coils, just out the 1 year labor warranty mark, and now your gonna have to spend some more money on fixing this stuff. I'm considering just eating it and doing it for free, if I charge them, I'm sure I'll be the one getting bad mouthed. GOODMAN!!!!!!

[CrispinHvac]

Is it there Aluminum coil? or there copper coil? i guess either way it dont matter cause it needs to be fixed.

Sry to hear the bad news. In my opinion carrier coils there first generation of the 410a coils in az leaked alot from what i have come across. Its ussally at the 4 to 5 year mark tho.

I installed a goodman in my cousonins house 15 seer heat pump with the modular blower and coil. Coil was all Aluminum hope that sucker dont leak i would be uppset my self.


Best of luck to you my friend.

[hvacvegas]

If it's a year old, it's not allum, it's copper.

When you order your new coils, SPECIFICALLY SAY you want alluminum.

Why did they only get a 5 year parts only warranty? Unless you pushed it, it was their choice.
What are they using in the house? Are they spraying aerosols in the house like crazy? Burning candles and crazy crap? Storing bleach, and other solvents near the return/equitment?

NOTE: The above is the signaling of Robotech. It's like his bat symbol in the sky.

Oh yeah, and before the post is made:
Bob, it's not just goodman. It's everyone.

[trouble time]

Just asking;
Does anyone think that it may not be the coil and it could be the R410a?

[bob hubbard]

:grin2: Its All about the install :grin2:

[DOGBOY]

Oh yeah, and before the post is made:
Bob, it's not just goodman. It's everyone.

Lennox is bad and trane is bad indoor coil leaks that is. Oh and had 1 1/2 year old rheem that had a leaky evap coil. :gah:

dogboy

[lynn comstock]

Formicary Corrosion. See http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=226412&highlight=ants+nest

The article link didn't work but I will attach some articles that I had saved.
186182

186192

[beenthere]

Just asking;
Does anyone think that it may not be the coil and it could be the R410a?

Nope. Low quality cooper. Lots of manufacturers had/are having problems with evap coil leaks.

[DOGBOY]

Lots of manufacturers had/are having problems with evap coil leaks.

they are telling me that is one reason they are going to all aluminum coils oh and that they transfer heat better than copper. But if the later is true why did carrier and ge/trane go away from them. My thoughts is that aluminum is now cheaper than copper to build. :whistle:


dogboy

[beenthere]

they are telling me that is one reason they are going to all aluminum coils oh and that they transfer heat better than copper. But if the later is true why did carrier and ge/trane go away from them. My thoughts is that aluminum is now cheaper than copper to build. :whistle:


dogboy

Aluminum probably is cheaper to use.

[JNFisher]

All good comments and sorry to hear about your inconvenience, especially if you had to go out on a Sunday. Hard to pinpoint the cause of the leak without analysis, could be something as easy to explain as trauma, but your local Goodman distributor should be more than willing to provide a new replacement aluminum coil without challenge provided the documentation is in order.

Goodman has made a significant investment in aluminum coils due to the industry wide formicary issues in the Southeast and is currently in production with all air handlers and both cased and uncased coil. It's human nature to look for an easy explanation but formicary is a tremendously difficult issue to investigate and pin down. I've seen houses two addresses apart have different formicary pattern leaks. The good news is aluminum seems to be far more resilant than copper in this area. The biggest issue Goodman has at this point is keeping up with demand for aluminum coils!

Sorry again for your inconvenince, hope you move forward with contacting your local Goodman distibutor. All the best.

[bmathews]

Nope. Low quality cooper. Lots of manufacturers had/are having problems with evap coil leaks.

The problem is crappy Chinese copper. Plain and simple. They put lead in our kids toys, why wouldn't they make 2nd rate copper. Hell, the computers we're all typing on have Chinese components.

[hvacvegas]

Aluminum probably is cheaper to use.

Of course it is. For the same reason aluminum wiring is cheaper to use than copper.

But, times have changed. Coil tech is changing also.

Years ago, using aerosol sprays were not the norm, and were still in their infancy.

Today, people spray a chemical in the air for everything. Smell, cleaning, body hygeine (which is why I don't shower, to protect my evap coil).

With these changes in househall chemicals, man. are making changes in materials to compensate.

Hopefully, we're not using products that eats aluminum, and we just don't know it yet. :-\

[ChrisTechMech]

I'm going to do some reading on the formicary action you're discussing here. I have been told that they are using thinner walled copper to increase heat transfer and thereby increasing leak potential in coils. Does this sound accurate? Hopefully, I'm not jumping ahead before reading about formicary action

[hvacvegas]

All good comments and sorry to hear about your inconvenience, especially if you had to go out on a Sunday. Hard to pinpoint the cause of the leak without analysis, could be something as easy to explain as trauma, but your local Goodman distributor should be more than willing to provide a new replacement aluminum coil without challenge provided the documentation is in order.

Goodman has made a significant investment in aluminum coils due to the industry wide formicary issues in the Southeast and is currently in production with all air handlers and both cased and uncased coil. It's human nature to look for an easy explanation but formicary is a tremendously difficult issue to investigate and pin down. I've seen houses two addresses apart have different formicary pattern leaks. The good news is aluminum seems to be far more resilant than copper in this area. The biggest issue Goodman has at this point is keeping up with demand for aluminum coils!

Sorry again for your inconvenince, hope you move forward with contacting your local Goodman distibutor. All the best.


Wow. You sound like a manufacturer, and not in a good way.
Right, it's as easy as going to the house to diagnose the coil. Drive to johnstone to pick up the coil, or wait for them to deliver it to you. Then pray to the HVAC gods that the monkeys in the warehouse called heads and the coin landed on heads, so you got the right coil.
Then drive to the house to put it in. Change the coil, cross your fingers the flues aren't in the way, or it's not above a door header.
Braze it in, jack some new refrigerant in to makeup whatever you lost.
Collect.
Easy as taking the coil to the distributer.

Also, in a 100% warranty, not covered items include (payed by contractor):
nitro, vacuum pump oil, gas, acytelene, braze, new refrigerant, 2 or 3" couplings, whatever you needed for the drain, silicone/tape if it's uncased, all the money involved with gaining the customer (which you'll hopefully keep after this).

[simplyrollin]

:grin2: Its All about the install :grin2:

Install is crucial, I know, I did it,and did it right! They still leaked!

[simplyrollin]

Is it there Aluminum coil? or there copper coil? i guess either way it dont matter cause it needs to be fixed.

Sry to hear the bad news. In my opinion carrier coils there first generation of the 410a coils in az leaked alot from what i have come across. Its ussally at the 4 to 5 year mark tho.

I installed a goodman in my cousonins house 15 seer heat pump with the modular blower and coil. Coil was all Aluminum hope that sucker dont leak i would be uppset my self.


Best of luck to you my friend.


They are the copper coils.

[simplyrollin]

If it's a year old, it's not allum, it's copper.

When you order your new coils, SPECIFICALLY SAY you want alluminum.

Why did they only get a 5 year parts only warranty? Unless you pushed it, it was their choice.
What are they using in the house? Are they spraying aerosols in the house like crazy? Burning candles and crazy crap? Storing bleach, and other solvents near the return/equitment?

NOTE: The above is the signaling of Robotech. It's like his bat symbol in the sky.

Oh yeah, and before the post is made:
Bob, it's not just goodman. It's everyone.


I have two new aluminum ones on the way! As far as I know, no candles, or any aerosols that would have prematurely made them fail. Duct is sufficient. They just were poorly manufactured, leaking at "U" bends, died in action after only 18 months. RIP!

[smittyii]

Of course it is. For the same reason aluminum wiring is cheaper to use than copper.

But, times have changed. Coil tech is changing also.

Years ago, using aerosol sprays were not the norm, and were still in their infancy.

Today, people spray a chemical in the air for everything. Smell, cleaning, body hygeine (which is why I don't shower, to protect my evap coil).

With these changes in househall chemicals, man. are making changes in materials to compensate.

Hopefully, we're not using products that eats aluminum, and we just don't know it yet. :-\
i bet your customers want you to shower.:yes:

[bob hubbard]

Install is crucial, I know, I did it,and did it right! They still leaked!

I know bud .... I was just messing with you .... The formica thing may be true in some form or other but in this case its not copper or alum .....Its just poor quality ..... Makes me wonder if the same guy that welded your copper coil is Now the exspert thats welding your alum coil ......Just saying :bump:

[bob hubbard]

Lennox is bad and trane is bad indoor coil leaks that is. Oh and had 1 1/2 year old rheem that had a leaky evap coil. :gah:

dogboy

Im pulling out another leaky trane coil this week .... Pictures comin soon ..... Its an 2003 coil I installed .... Ive been installin American Standard coils since 1992 & I hav Never had an id a coil leak under warranty ......Most are 8 - 12 yr range ..... These are all copper ..... Its too early to tell about tthe new Alum coiils just yet .....

[bob hubbard]

I been installing the A/S brand since 1992 & the worst coils I get are 8-12 year range .... Many go longer ......

[Special Ed]

We've been gettin' paid by Goodman to replace those faulty coils no matter if they're under a labor warranty or not (they're usually still under a parts warranty!). Have you looked into that?

Unlike Trane or Carrier Goodman knows when its product is faulty & so they try to do whatever it takes to make it right with the dealer. We get paid $90/hr plus peripherals to put in one of their coils.

[bob hubbard]

We've been gettin' paid by Goodman to replace those faulty coils no matter if they're under a labor warranty or not (they're usually still under a parts warranty!). Have you looked into that?

Unlike Trane or Carrier Goodman knows when its product is faulty & so they try to do whatever it takes to make it right with the dealer. We get paid $90/hr plus peripherals to put in one of their coils.

You beeing paid by Gooman or your supplier ? Yes I asked my sales rep .....He says gooman is too cheap to pay for small problems like a leaky coil or rv valves ..... I was told amana would but NOT Gooman ....

[EugeneTheJeep]

Of course it is. For the same reason aluminum wiring is cheaper to use than copper.

But, times have changed. Coil tech is changing also.

Years ago, using aerosol sprays were not the norm, and were still in their infancy.

Today, people spray a chemical in the air for everything. Smell, cleaning, body hygeine (which is why I don't shower, to protect my evap coil).

With these changes in househall chemicals, man. are making changes in materials to compensate.

Hopefully, we're not using products that eats aluminum, and we just don't know it yet. :-\

That coil is sweating, how is a significant concentration of any thing going to hurt it?

Did you ever do refrigeration? The coils in sandwich units last only a couple of years, the acids in the vegetables eat right through the copper, and they are contained in a small box, not in the wide open space of a home.

Coils failing in a home AC in a years time is caused by defects or poor materials. :.02:

[beenthere]

You beeing paid by Gooman or your supplier ? Yes I asked my sales rep .....He says gooman is too cheap to pay for small problems like a leaky coil or rv valves ..... I was told amana would but NOT Gooman ....

Maybe its your sales rep that is too lazy find out the truth.

[bob hubbard]

Maybe its your sales rep that is too lazy find out the truth.

Yea I heard all the good sales reps were replaced by lennox guys ..... :bump:

[bob hubbard]

I installed a two system changeout at a customers home a year and a half ago. Goodman 13 seer heat pump systems 410. I go back today for a no cooling call. Both freaking evaporators are leaking. Its freaking embarassing walking back into the house and trying to explain that your new systems both have leaking evaporator coils, just out the 1 year labor warranty mark, and now your gonna have to spend some more money on fixing this stuff. I'm considering just eating it and doing it for free, if I charge them, I'm sure I'll be the one getting bad mouthed. GOODMAN!!!!!!

I just installed anther Gooman hp last week ..... On start up , The unit was in the heatin mode ..... I found the rv wasnt plugged in ..... Than I remembered another one I did last year with the rv uppluged also ..... Im thinking their being dropped and or handled ruff during transportation ......Maybe the coils are being tossed around too ....

[Stamas]

I've dealt at one time or another with all the major and not so major brands, resi, commercial, refrigeration equipment as well. They all have had some serious and not so serious bone-head screw ups, fumbles, etc.
I can't single out one as the absolute worst, new ones coming out all the time. They all do it.
Goodman's main problem wasn't theirs, but they made it-selling to everyone who came in the door, (well it seemed that way).

[redsoxnation603]

You beeing paid by Gooman or your supplier ? Yes I asked my sales rep .....He says gooman is too cheap to pay for small problems like a leaky coil or rv valves ..... I was told amana would but NOT Gooman ....

geez looks like goodman is going down lately and we are not the only ones having problems with not only the equipment but the reps as well!!

[bob hubbard]

I've dealt at one time or another with all the major and not so major brands, resi, commercial, refrigeration equipment as well. They all have had some serious and not so serious bone-head screw ups, fumbles, etc.
I can't single out one as the absolute worst, new ones coming out all the time. They all do it.
Goodman's main problem wasn't theirs, but they made it-selling to everyone who came in the door, (well it seemed that way).

I can only speak of the equipment I install .... 5 yrs ago i did 4 systems with a tempstar ....I used aftermarket coils ( adp ) 3 of the 4 leaked at the 5.5 yr mark .... My supplier gav me a credit for the out of warranty coils .... But it still left my customer with a $ dollar bill ... Since than I havnt sold any adp coils ....

[Stamas]

Damn, if it weren't for bad luck......

[johnsonr1]

I installed a two system changeout at a customers home a year and a half ago. Goodman 13 seer heat pump systems 410. I go back today for a no cooling call. Both freaking evaporators are leaking. Its freaking embarassing walking back into the house and trying to explain that your new systems both have leaking evaporator coils, just out the 1 year labor warranty mark, and now your gonna have to spend some more money on fixing this stuff. I'm considering just eating it and doing it for free, if I charge them, I'm sure I'll be the one getting bad mouthed. GOODMAN!!!!!!

Had the same problem before with Goodman and did it N/C for the customer and went back to my supplier and did a little jumping, they covered labor and all materials.

[RoBoTeq]

You beeing paid by Gooman or your supplier ? Yes I asked my sales rep .....He says gooman is too cheap to pay for small problems like a leaky coil or rv valves ..... I was told amana would but NOT Gooman ....
There is no difference in the reps for Amana then the reps for Goodman, it is all Goodman.

So bob, is this the same alleged Goodman rep you supposedly talked to about my being booted from Goodman when it isn't true?

[bob hubbard]

There is no difference in the reps for Amana then the reps for Goodman, it is all Goodman.

So bob, is this the same alleged Goodman rep you supposedly talked to about my being booted from Goodman when it isn't true?

Im not sure why Im having to exsplain this to you but heres what i was told .....Gooman is sold so cheap .....Theirs no money for problems .....Amana on the other hand cost more so they have money built in for paying out for problems ..... Same reps but different cost of the equipment .....

[hvacvegas]

Im not sure why Im having to exsplain this to you but heres what i was told .....Gooman is sold so cheap .....Theirs no money for problems .....Amana on the other hand cost more so they have money built in for paying out for problems ..... Same reps but different cost of the equipment .....

Who you dealing with?

Johnstone, or lute?

If johnstone, tell me if their initials are: MB, or RE.

[catmanacman]

a 1 yr old goodman with a leaking evap coil , you don't say:whistle:

[RoBoTeq]

Im not sure why Im having to exsplain this to you but heres what i was told .....Gooman is sold so cheap .....Theirs no money for problems .....Amana on the other hand cost more so they have money built in for paying out for problems ..... Same reps but different cost of the equipment .....
The mark ups are the same for both brands. When Goodman first bought Amana, the two brands were kept seperate. That isn't the case any longer.

Yes, the Amana does have a better warranty, and that does factor into part of the cost of the Amana brand (not the Amana Distinctions, which is nothing but a relabeled Goodman). But the amount of money available for problems is exactly the same.

The Goodman brand isn't even the least expensive around any longer. What made the difference is that when Goodman restructured during the past few sales of the company, they kept adding layers of administration, like the other brands have.

Believe me bob, I wish Goodman were as bad as you think they are. I am up against Goodman every day.

[Duanesz]

they are telling me that is one reason they are going to all aluminum coils oh and that they transfer heat better than copper. But if the later is true why did carrier and ge/trane go away from them. My thoughts is that aluminum is now cheaper than copper to build. :whistle:


dogboy

Ding,Ding,Ding we have a winner.

[RoBoTeq]

Ding,Ding,Ding we have a winner.
No, we don't have a winner. Aluminum may be less expensive in and of itself, but it costs more to work with aluminum. Aluminum requires more oil for processing and is more difficult to bond with other materials. So the cost factor is not really a major factor at all.

The major factor is corrosion. Disimilar metals create natural corrosives between themselves under the best conditions. Our homes are nowhere near the best conditions. The amount of VOC's in our homes along with our tighter building construction combined with the need to have less mass in all materials used for heat exchange are the reason our industry is going back to aluminum.

If we could get rid of 80% of the additional VOC's we have introduced into our homes over the past three decades, we would not be needing to eliminate copper/aluminum coils.

[lynn comstock]

....If we could get rid of 80% of the additional VOC's we have introduced into our homes over the past three decades, we would not be needing to eliminate copper/aluminum coils. Proper ventilation (ach) would possibly go a long way. Has anyone made a practice of checking homes for air tightness when the indoor coil fails because of refrigerant leaks?

[mikesn2hvac]

I also had to change a 1yo Goodman evap. I noticed the new one was completely black.(paint?)

[RoBoTeq]

I also had to change a 1yo Goodman evap. I noticed the new one was completely black.(paint?)
This is a new one on me.

[lynn comstock]

I also had to change a 1yo Goodman evap. I noticed the new one was completely black.(paint?) Sewer gas...HS.

[mikesn2hvac]

I also had to change a 1yo Goodman evap. I noticed the new one was completely black.(paint?)

I did some research and found that the coil used for replacement was epoxy coated. It said Goodman has had them for apx 3 yrs

[408-COUPE]

All good comments and sorry to hear about your inconvenience, especially if you had to go out on a Sunday. Hard to pinpoint the cause of the leak without analysis, could be something as easy to explain as trauma, but your local Goodman distributor should be more than willing to provide a new replacement aluminum coil without challenge provided the documentation is in order.

Goodman has made a significant investment in aluminum coils due to the industry wide formicary issues in the Southeast and is currently in production with all air handlers and both cased and uncased coil. It's human nature to look for an easy explanation but formicary is a tremendously difficult issue to investigate and pin down. I've seen houses two addresses apart have different formicary pattern leaks. The good news is aluminum seems to be far more resilant than copper in this area. The biggest issue Goodman has at this point is keeping up with demand for aluminum coils!

Sorry again for your inconvenince, hope you move forward with contacting your local Goodman distibutor. All the best.

They were all good comments till this one. Dont downplay the problem and try to put it off on the installer then try to sell your Goodman products.

[RoBoTeq]

I did some research and found that the coil used for replacement was epoxy coated. It said Goodman has had them for apx 3 yrs
Where did you find this information?

[tbirdtbird]

this so-called formicary corrosion looks like BS to me....there is a major error in the chemistry terms used which makes me think it is all hocus-pocus....carboxylic acid is *NOT* formic acid. And where is all the formic acid supposedly coming from anyway? No mention of that

Lets get back to the real problem of chinese copper and chinese everything else. Chinese gypsum board laced with sulfur chemicals? (prolly some sort of disposal of toxic waste). Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) in toothpaste? Think it stops there??

[RoBoTeq]

this so-called formicary corrosion looks like BS to me....there is a major error in the chemistry terms used which makes me think it is all hocus-pocus....carboxylic acid is *NOT* formic acid. And where is all the formic acid supposedly coming from anyway? No mention of that

Lets get back to the real problem of chinese copper and chinese everything else. Chinese gypsum board laced with sulfur chemicals? (prolly some sort of disposal of toxic waste). Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) in toothpaste? Think it stops there??
Do you even know what formic acid is? Do you even know what formic means?

The problem is exactly what it is claimed to be. Formicary corrosion from the chemicals in VOC's mixing with the condensate creating mild corrosive acids that etch the copper. This is why the issue does not occur on outdoor coils.

There has been a multitude of information on formicary corrosion and how it affects HVAC coils posted on this site. Do you have one thing supporting your claims?

[garyed]

I also had to change a 1yo Goodman evap. I noticed the new one was completely black.(paint?)

I had to change a 4 ton Goodman 410a coil the past fall & it was black too.
They didn't have the aluminum coils in yet for the 4 tons but they said it was some special coating on the coil for protection from corrosion.