Warranties

[bananaboy]

Here it is. A cond. unit (only) was installed last year, ICP "KAC 024". It is spil system. It came with 10 years Warranty on the Compr., and 5 Year Warranty on the rest of parts, 1 year on Labor (by me).

The actuall installation was is July.

Yesterday, the customer yelled at me that he needs a new compr. because the existing scroll makes noise on start. Then its very quite. I could not find any problems.

His "Labor" warranty has expired last month. At this point I told the customer that because of his hostile attitude, I will not service his A/C. The rest of the warranties are by Manifact. every tech. do them.

He treatened me with actions.

Does he have any basis ?

Am I "married" to his unit ?

What if I change business ?

What if I move someplace else ?

I clearly explained to him PRIOR to the replacement, and wrote it down on the Invoice that I only warranty the Labor, and it is for 1 year.

How do you guys deal with such customers ? and warranties ?

This is the first customer in nearly 10 years that I refuse to go. It feels unsafe.

[fl1]

We would do it under our warranty,when it's that close,but ask that they buy a service agreement,they usually will,but if not it's okay.

I've found that I let things go,beyond warranty,pool problems ,water conditioner,etc., and most companies say tough luck.

It's also helpful to explain that the warranty has expired ,but ask :what do you think is fair",they often offer to pay half etc., asking them puts the burden on themj,and you don't have to agree if they are unreasonable.

Good luck!!

[chillbilly]

NO. You are not obligated to perform any work on his system beyond an expired labor warranty. If you want to perform manufacturer warranty work for him you can...but you don't have to.
Do you have a signed agreement for the work with dates clearly defined? If not, be careful.
If he is being unreasonable, he might be someone you want to cast aside.

[RoBoTeq]

You should at least take some responsibility for this unit because you have not installed it according to the manufacturers specs. That is, you do not have a manufacturers matched and rated indoor coil in the system.

Most likely the scroll noise problem is due to improper appliction, such as TXV on indoor coil, wrong piston on indoor coil etc.

[bananaboy]

chillbilly,
"...NO. You are not obligated to perform any work on his system beyond an expired labor warranty. If you want to perform manufacturer warranty work for him you can...but you don't have to.
Do you have a signed agreement for the work with dates clearly defined? If not, be careful.
If he is being unreasonable, he might be someone you want to cast aside...."

Yes, both me and customer have a copy of the invoice which clearly states that there is 1 year warranty on Labor. That expired a month ago. I have my copy in front of me.

When I explained to the customer that after 1 year, the labor is chargeable to him, he reacted harshly saying "... you've installed the unit, you have to fix it without Labor charge...."

Say what ?


RoBoTeq,

"....You should at least take some responsibility for this unit because you have not installed it according to the manufacturers specs. That is, you do not have a manufacturers matched and rated indoor coil in the system...."

Yes, I took the responsibility to go and check the unit in the begining of summer. Status of operation - O.K.

I also took the responsibility to go 2 days ago and check the unit FOR FREE (eventhough the Labor warranty has expired). The condensing unit was working O.K., and "yes" it was noisier on "Start up".

For the duration of 1 year and 1 month the unit worked flawlessly. The outside unit is matched with the capacity of the inside coil. However the piston was not replaced.
Reason: Carrier and ICP are very, very in terms of orifice size. After all Carrier owns ICP.

Thank you, all

[bob brown]

Hello,
In N. Texas, you are in the clear to walk. I dissagree with previous post about you doing something wrong. You may have installed something wrong, but to assume that you did not do the job right because the compressor makes noise is not fair. Without listening to the compressor I cannot make a determination about the problem.

I recently had a customer that had a neighbor complain about nois from a trane compressor where we replaced the fan motor 90 days earlier. The motor had bad bearings, and we replaced it. WE CHARGED LABOR TO REPLACE THE MOTOR.

Warrantee is a tricky threat. If you don't know what you are agreeing to, consult with a lawyer before you get into trouble.

I closed my business after 12 years of trying to make a living. I worked about 60 hours a week, and many hours were for no money. I now am working for someone, trying to learn how to make money. I was not happy with some of his practices, but I am learning to accept what he is doing.

[bananaboy]

bob brown,

I also ran my business for nearly 10 years, and finally went to work for a big co.

I am happy because I got company vehicle, they pay for everything - gas, insurance, repairs, tools, medicals, dentist and pension.

This particular customer we are discussing was a customer of mine before I joined this company.

My view is - if anyone is young and just entering the field - first go to work for a big company, learn the trade, pay most of your mortgage (if not all) and then go on your own.

As to the customer, I just sent him a letter explaining that my employment status had changed last year and I simply do not have the amount of hours available as I used to, when I was self-employed., Advised him that after the "Labor warranty" expired - whether me of some other tech (company) it really does not matter.

Of course, he insists on me - to get a freeby on labor.

[Twilly]

Why not reaplace the compressor and charge for the labor and charge $highdollars.

[bananaboy]

twilli3967 << Why not reaplace the compressor and charge for the labor and charge $highdollars. >>


because customer doesn't want to pay for the labor ....

and replacing a compr. takes 3 hours.

I could do it for less, but not for free.

The point was that the customer started yelling at me and treatening me. Than turned me "off". If he wants to play "tough" so be it.

Thank you, all

[Twilly]

I understand....

[RoBoTeq]

Not trying to rag on you bananaboy, what you have done has been done by most of us. BUT...there is no way that any hybrid system using an existing indoor coil ever worked "flawlessly".

There is also no proper indoor coil capacity. Indoor coils must be matched to the capacity of the outdoor unit. I don't care what manufacturer it is, the nomenclature of indoor coils mean absolutely nothing as far as capacity.

I would give this situation a 99% possibility that the application of the new condensor to the existing indoor coil has caused an issue that is causing the compressor to be loud.

[fl1]

Originally posted by chillbilly
NO. You are not obligated to perform any work on his system beyond an expired labor warranty. If you want to perform manufacturer warranty work for him you can...but you don't have to.
Do you have a signed agreement for the work with dates clearly defined? If not, be careful.
If he is being unreasonable, he might be someone you want to cast aside.


Bannana Boy,

Chilly's phone number is on all the mens room walls in NC ,he's just trying to get your bannana!!!

[coolwhip]

My policy has always been 30 days labor and 1 year parts. Not 1 year labor. I agree with Robo. If you changed out the condensor and it does not match the nomenclature of the coil, then you are inviting problems that the manufacturor will not back up. Good luck!

[bananaboy]

RoBoTeq,

<< would give this situation a 99% possibility that the application of the new condensor to the existing indoor coil has caused an issue that is causing the compressor to be loud.... >>

I certanly appriciate your oppinion, but keep reading below.

As I mentioned in the above posts - I work for a large HVAC co. One of the things the managers require from us is to always install "matched" systems. However, this summer there was time when our suppliers ran-out of certain Evap.coils. At moment we were advised to use Carrier evap. coils .

So, every rule has an exception.

As to my description <<< The system worked flawlessly >>
O.K. I'll agree with you on the word "flawlessly" it was strong word.

But the A/C had the following readings:
1. O.A.T 80 F
2. S.L. 69 psig
3. L.L. 210 psig
4. S.L.Temp. 55 F (at Condenser)
6. SH of 15 F

That to me is an O.K. "mis-matched" working system.


<<< I would give this situation a 99% possibility that the application of the new condensor to the existing indoor coil has caused an issue that is causing the compressor to be loud... >>> RoBoTek, if you can reason your thought with some data (or elaborate on that)


Thank you

[bob brown]

Hello,
This is probably the most lame of comments. That a compressor has to be matched for the compressor to work. If you really believe the lie, I would have to believe you are hacks without any training other than what you learned from a monkey.

I am not trying to start a fight, but many condensors are replaced without consulting the ARI book. The only thing you can claim is efficiency, is a certain SEER when you use a specified coil, NO I am sorry, I made a mistake, The only thing you can do is collect more money for the entire system, the customer gets screwed.

[RoBoTeq]

I agree that the data you have would indicate that the "system" was operating within the parameters of normal refrigeration operation.

However; that was only the way it operated at that specific outdoor temperature. If the metering was too large, the outdoor unit may have been slugged with liquid refrigerant on low outdoor ambient operations. If the indoor coil is actually too small in comparison with the new outdoor unit, the condenser may have been starving during very hot days.

There are too many variables to be able to pinpoint any one condition, but the fact is that many adverse conditions can occur when an indoor coil with an unknown metering device that has not been tested and rated with a particular outdoor unit is used.

Hell, there are many adverse conditions that can occur when all of the properly rated components are used. To use an unknown application of system components is asking for trouble.

Tell you what; get the manufacture of the outdoor unit to send a rep out and give his/her evaluation of why the compressor is loud on start up.

[trane]

Originally posted by bob brown
Hello,
This is probably the most lame of comments. That a compressor has to be matched for the compressor to work. If you really believe the lie, I would have to believe you are hacks without any training other than what you learned from a monkey.

I am not trying to start a fight, but many condensors are replaced without consulting the ARI book. The only thing you can claim is efficiency, is a certain SEER when you use a specified coil, NO I am sorry, I made a mistake, The only thing you can do is collect more money for the entire system, the customer gets screwed.

You are wrong, not selling them a coil is screwing them. I never sell a new unit without replacing the coil and lines.

[theredneckrev]

Originally posted by bananaboy
Here it is. A cond. unit (only) was installed last year, ICP "KAC 024". It is spil system. It came with 10 years Warranty on the Compr., and 5 Year Warranty on the rest of parts, 1 year on Labor (by me).

The actuall installation was is July.

Yesterday, the customer yelled at me that he needs a new compr. because the existing scroll makes noise on start. Then its very quite. I could not find any problems.

His "Labor" warranty has expired last month. At this point I told the customer that because of his hostile attitude, I will not service his A/C. The rest of the warranties are by Manifact. every tech. do them.

He treatened me with actions.

Does he have any basis ?

Am I "married" to his unit ?

What if I change business ?

What if I move someplace else ?

I clearly explained to him PRIOR to the replacement, and wrote it down on the Invoice that I only warranty the Labor, and it is for 1 year.

How do you guys deal with such customers ? and warranties ?

This is the first customer in nearly 10 years that I refuse to go. It feels unsafe.






It sounds as if you have honored your part of the contract, but sometimes we do need to go "above and beyond" in order to maintain a happy customer base. If I may inject some advise; Explore every REASONABLE avenue of customer satisfaction before "burning a bridge" that you may want to cross again later. Maybe you should try installing a "hard-start"kit on the unit. From my experience, this tends to quiet the start-up of a scroll compressor. This possible solution may cost you a little time and material, but could have a long lasting positive effect on your reputation. Good luck and God bless

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by bob brown
Hello,
This is probably the most lame of comments. That a compressor has to be matched for the compressor to work. If you really believe the lie, I would have to believe you are hacks without any training other than what you learned from a monkey.

I am not trying to start a fight, but many condensors are replaced without consulting the ARI book. The only thing you can claim is efficiency, is a certain SEER when you use a specified coil, NO I am sorry, I made a mistake, The only thing you can do is collect more money for the entire system, the customer gets screwed.

Well Bob, aside from your coming on like gangbusters with opinions that are completly unprofessional and just plain wrong, I am sure you mean well when you improperly install equipment.

Welcome aboard. Settle in and learn a little from some of the hack monkeys believing in lies about basic physics and engineering.

[lonnirat]

Originally posted by bob brown
Hello,
This is probably the most lame of comments. That a compressor has to be matched for the compressor to work. If you really believe the lie, I would have to believe you are hacks without any training other than what you learned from a monkey.

I am not trying to start a fight, but many condensors are replaced without consulting the ARI book. The only thing you can claim is efficiency, is a certain SEER when you use a specified coil, NO I am sorry, I made a mistake, The only thing you can do is collect more money for the entire system, the customer gets screwed.

So you think that someone is screwing the customer by selling them a matched system as opposed to just replacing the condenser and then go on criticize others training here because they are in fact doing the right thing? Are you for real? YOU sir, are the hack.

[chillbilly]

I understand what Robo is emphasizing here...That we provide a matched system that is installed properly, but the signed contract as noted does not require that the company exceed their labor warranty obligation.
The fact that the owner wants someone to provide repair labor at no cost is irresponsible.
Leave that customer alone!

[thero]

having had the same problem you've run in to, I refused to honor the labor warranty any longewr than it called for in the contract.

In the past I was adamant about not going further than one year on labor and sometimes ended up in small claims court over it.

Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost.

But check with your state to be sure that you are giving the legal length required by law.

My personal feeling is that since you now work for a company that customer could end giving you grief at your job.

A compressor is not a job you can just give away because of the time and material involved.

I read some guys here saying you should do it for free.

That is something only a large company can eat.

I am an indepandant with a niche business and can't afford to do something like that for free. I'd lose twice as much money and the in most cases would lose the customer any way.

I have had compressors go bad and even if it's the third year out of labor warranty and the customers expect it for free.

No, take it from some one who's been there, tell them you won't do it.

If they take you to small claims court--GO TO COURT.
Tell your side.

After all you have a written contract a resonable judge will come down on your side.

Some judges are advocate minded and won't care if you have an air tight contract. That used to kill me when I lost one of those cases.

Either way I think you did the right thing going out to check for free. We are in business and business is governed by written agreements which out line what we will do for a specific dollar amount and how long we will back up our labor.

It's a two way street. We do what we are contracted for and no less and the customer pays the agreed price and knows what he is getting.

I am sure that others will disagree with me and say your are morally obligated to go back and change the compressor; but the reality is sentiment has no place in business. And that's all your reward would be from doing out of warranty work for free: a customers sentiment.
I n most cases it would be negative sentiment.

[Edited by thero on 08-18-2005 at 06:05 PM]

[filterchanger]

Trane, are you saying that if a customer only had enough money to replace the condensor and not the evaporator and lineset you would not take the job.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by filterchanger
Trane, are you saying that if a customer only had enough money to replace the condensor and not the evaporator and lineset you would not take the job.

When I was a contractor I turned these kinds of jobs down all of the time. Unless I could be reasonably certain that the indoor coil was not too old, could not possibly have anything to do with the demise of the existing system, was clean and had the proper metering device in it, I would not reuse one.

If a customer cannot afford to replace the entire system they cannot afford to replace their system at all. It is ultimately the consumer and the equipment manufacturer that suffers from this misapplication practice. I see it every day and have to deal with disgruntled contractors and their consumers because of this practice.

If a consumer would not let me replace the entire system properly, I would turn down the job by telling them I would rather they hate someone else.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

If a customer cannot afford to replace the entire system they cannot afford to replace their system at all. [/B]

Man, you sound like my salesman, no wonder he make mo money than I do, and I own the company something ain't right here.

[trane]

Originally posted by filterchanger
Trane, are you saying that if a customer only had enough money to replace the condensor and not the evaporator and lineset you would not take the job.

Yes, Robo has pretty much explained it. The OP has a chance to learn from this as I did years ago. If you don't follow this advice now you soon will. I would bet most warranty comp failures are install related and guess who eats it. I would not be suprised if all brands require a new coil installed in the future before honoring any warranties.

[filterchanger]

I can understand not doing it on a old coil, but you said all. Robo do you allways replace the lineset?

[RoBoTeq]

If the lineset is properly sized and shows no sign of contamination and does not have soldered joints...I use them.

[trane]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
If the lineset is properly sized and shows no sign of contamination and does not have soldered joints...I use them.

I don't use them for a few reasons one of which you mentioned.

Shows no signs of contamination but not sure
Hidden kinks
linesets are cheap compared to the equipment and I know the system is clean and leak free.

[filterchanger]

I give the customer the option. I do try to convince them to replace the entire system, and make them aware of the drawbacks of not doing so. In the end though its their house and money and I give them what they want. Well I dont but the company I work for does. I turn all equipment to be replaced over to a salesman. I know alot of our customers go with just the condensor. We even give them ten year parts and labor warranty. Im just a grunt, to be seen and not heard.

[bananaboy]

Hi, guys

Thanks for the follow-up


I did send a very detailed letter to the customer outlining all the specifics.

I'll tell you - when I dug-out the invoice from last year, boy was I ever glad I wrote all the details.

It explicitly says the "Labor Warranty" is 1 year. It says :"Customer advised the Evap. coil may have to be replaced very soon."

It very clearly says "10 years warranty on Compressor BY MANIFACTURER" .

More details: the lineset was 3/8" Liquid and 3/4" Suction line. No need to replace the Lineset.

I did install "Liquid line" filter and Diconect Electrical Box.

One other thing I forgot to mention is : the customer wants and Immidiate service, and an Immidiate repairs that will leave the house without cooling for no more than 2-3 hrs.

I specified that these expectations are UNREASONABLE.

BTW, I've already did 2 service visits for (absolutely) FREE.

I am tempted to post the letter to the customer, but .... will withhold it for now. May be at latter moment.

[RoBoTeq]

It sounds like you covered all bases on the initial paperwork, which is something we unfortunately must do nowadays.

So, what do you think is causing the problem?

[bananaboy]

RoBoTek,

<<So, what do you think is the problem? >>>

If it's not the compressor,, my first though would be CAPACITOR.

Last time (and the only time) I saw it, the unit hesitated to start, which to me was the reason for the unit to rattle. Only for a second. Then it was fine.

I've seen enough "reciprocating" compressors (when I was doing refrigeration work) with similar rattle, but remember this is a scroll compressor, no pistons.

So, I would replace the Capacitor, then check the Cond. fan motor.

Not for free, though !

Interestingly enough, I saw few fairly new A/C units with smaller (by capacitance) capacitors, which would cause a hesitation and a "hard start", hence rattle.

Installing a "hard start" kit solves the problem. I have to confess - I do not like "hard start" kits and use them as a last resort, because they simply shorten the life of the compressor. Properly sized capacitor will do just fine.

On an older units - I may go 5 uf higher than original to give it extra boost. It only increases the voltage marginaly, so it is safe.

RoBoTek,

the issue with the customer was not diagnosing the problem, but $$$$$$$.

Yes, I can do it for free, but with 2 kids (22 and 12 years of age) and wife - the $$$ is needed.

And besides, I have done a lot for free, believe me. Especially when I was younger.

If there is more to the story - I will let you guys know.