FX10

[prostock]

Got a client looking to install a bunch (over 500 eventually) new heat pumps. They are available with the FX10. Literature says Bacnet is 19200 and folks on here say to stay away. I have an FX20 in the building already. I may need to add another (FX60 70 or whatever) later to handle all of them, but looking for info on which way to advise. N2 is fine with me and have that on some stuff in the building now. I can do these on LON if necessary. Each floor is 60 units. I would rather not have multiple trunks on a floor and with the indicated bacnet problems and 40 total advised per trunk, I would probably lean them toward N2. Any insite from yall would be great to help with the decision. Thanks

[memphishokie]

Just a thought, but N2 is going away. It may be a year or 2 but I wouldn't feel good selling my customer a legacy protocol that I knew was on its way out. Why not Bacnet? JCI is now going with Bacnet on thier new controllers.

[prostock]

Only 40 per trunk. I have 60 per floor. 19200 baud. I was reading on here about folks having a hard time with the BACNET being very slow and communication issues with the FX10. If it were bacnet/IP it might be better but MS/TP seems to be limited. I have a ton of n2 experience but not as much bacnet and lon. I was hoping someone would have used these before and could steer me away from the known problems. Not tied to n2, but I have some in the building now. Any advice is welcome. JCI is trying to get away from n2. The new controller, PGC?, doesnt even have N2. That screws everybody in the retrofit market from using it, unless we start to pull new trunks everywhere as the buildings convert. But if they are gonna force a convert, then they will force alot of clents to other systems. Just my 2 cents.

[Chris_Worthington]

Only 40 per trunk. I have 60 per floor. 19200 baud. I was reading on here about folks having a hard time with the BACNET being very slow and communication issues with the FX10. If it were bacnet/IP it might be better but MS/TP seems to be limited. I have a ton of n2 experience but not as much bacnet and lon. I was hoping someone would have used these before and could steer me away from the known problems. Not tied to n2, but I have some in the building now. Any advice is welcome. JCI is trying to get away from n2. The new controller, PGC?, doesnt even have N2. That screws everybody in the retrofit market from using it, unless we start to pull new trunks everywhere as the buildings convert. But if they are gonna force a convert, then they will force alot of clents to other systems. Just my 2 cents.

Should we a send a thank you note for this?

[prostock]

LOL. I doesn't matter. Jci controls group historicly is carried
by auto and battery. They will never go away! I am an old asc / gpl /dx /pmi guy so I can make their stuff work. Now doing the fx line so I had big hopes for the
Pgc stuff. But jci has set me back again. Oh well, life goes on. Do you
have any experience with fx10 boards?

[s2sam]

LOL. I doesn't matter. Jci controls group historicly is carried
by auto and battery. They will never go away! I am an old asc / gpl /dx /pmi guy so I can make their stuff work. Now doing the fx line so I had big hopes for the
Pgc stuff. But jci has set me back again. Oh well, life goes on. Do you
have any experience with fx10 boards?

Good day ProStock,

Apparently JCI is discontinuing the smaller FX product line (FX10 and downward and possible the FX20?) and so you may wish to consider this in your design, as supply and support will obviously dwindle over time. Now, JCI has stated that they will support the discontinued models (i.e. repair, etc), but I would imagine the support cost would be pricey...

Cheers,

Sam

[Chris_Worthington]

LOL. I doesn't matter. Jci controls group historicly is carried
by auto and battery. They will never go away! I am an old asc / gpl /dx /pmi guy so I can make their stuff work. Now doing the fx line so I had big hopes for the
Pgc stuff. But jci has set me back again. Oh well, life goes on. Do you
have any experience with fx10 boards?

Primarily on this end is the FX06, 07 and 15 when FORCED to deal with....

"Limited" and PITA to deal with IMO :cheers:

[prostock]

Hey Sam, Its been awhile. Go Capitals!

So maybe I advise Lon on this project?

[BACnet]

Looking through the other threads it seems that if you're using the FX10 (or it's re-branded twin sister) their LON implementation leaves as much to be desired as their BACnet implementation.

[s2sam]

Hey Sam, Its been awhile. Go Capitals!

So maybe I advise Lon on this project?

Good day Prostock,

Yes, it has been awhile!

I have not had any experience with JCI's Lon, but was told by one of their national troubleshooters, that JCI historically did not do Lon too well... BACNet's comment seems to support what was said to me...

As for what to do? That is a tough one. I know of a few projects that are currently in limbo because of the FX (FX05/06/07/10/14/15/16, MD20) discontinuance and the "replacement" FX-PC product line (to be released sometime later this year) do not appear to support N2... My guess is that this will change (i.e. they will add N2 support), as there are some really large JCI customers with tons of N2 installed and as a consequence, they will go ballistic if JCI does not support them and if not they may rip out all JCI devices and go with a totally different vendor. If anything JCI's decision to discontinue the smaller FX series has been a great marketing boost for JCI's competition, as now customers are looking at other vendors' products.

Cheers,

Sam

[dlhvac]

the fx stuff is now made by distech controls the older line was made by carel

[dlhvac]

by the way it works well

[prostock]

I found the full FX10 .pdf today and plan to read it tomorrow. I hope that the program written and installed in these factory boards is sufficient and easy to map up and control. I hope that the addresses can go to 128 or 256 rather than 66 like some Veris stuff I use.

I hope that I dont get my ass handed to me after I suggest this product for 500+ units.

[Cagey57]

If I understand it correctly the FX-10 was/is primarily an OEM device. The FX-05 was first supplied to OEM's (Reznor used a ton of them) and "those" OEM's would not release (make public) the the apd files to controls people.

As long as the equipment supplier will guarantee that you, as the "Control Guy", will get fulll access to the program files logic I think you will be OK.

I , personally, would make dang certain that I had top notch support from the Manufactuers Controls team on the Heat Pumps. The OEM probably has a confidence level with the FX-10 and their control logic so they certainly have people that have "seen it all" with respect to field weirdness.

I might think twice about N2 but the LON functionality Sucks (IMO) on the FX produce line. BACnet might be an option if you can get it that way. Easier to integrate than N2. Also easier to replace if/when N2 products are no longer available.

s2sam you said "JCI is discontinuing the smaller FX product line (FX10 and downward and possible the FX20?)". The FX-20 (JACE200) is a Supervisory Device not a field device. It doesn't make sense to to me that it would be discontined, where did you hear that ?

[s2sam]

<snip>
s2sam you said "JCI is discontinuing the smaller FX product line (FX10 and downward and possible the FX20?)". The FX-20 (JACE200) is a Supervisory Device not a field device. It doesn't make sense to to me that it would be discontined, where did you hear that ?

Good day CCI,

You are absolutely correct that the FX20 is not part of the list of FX controllers that I was told that are being discontinued. In my original post I included the statement "possibly the FX20" to indicate that I was unsure of this device. However, I did indirectly clarify my original comment in a later post with a list of what I was told that would be discontinued (FX05/06/07/10/14/15/16 & MD20 ) which did not include the FX20 of which I assumed would it clarify my earlier post. I assumed wrong and so my apologies for the confusion!

Cheers,

Sam

[Chris_Worthington]

FX + LON = Disaster,,,, just sayin......

FX + BACnet = better, but not by much..........

Good luck on your en devours as mine and others have not panned out so well in regards to this product :cheers:

[Cagey57]

prostock,
We sell the product line (FX Field Gear) My moderate experience with the FX-07/14/15/16 has been with N2 and BACnet (commercial Zoning stuff, yuck). A co-worker had had lots of difficulties with the LON versions. After further thought I say go with the FX-10 N2 version. What kind of a Network manager are you planning to use ?

I do have to second Chris's comments.

s2sam, you did clarify, no apology needed. Accept mine as I missed it, sorry !!

I won't be disapointed if the FX-Field Gear goes away as long as we get another N2 device (JCI has implied that we will see an FX-PC N2 version possibly late 2011/early 2012, Really ????) to replace the FX-Field gear/Legacy ASC's.

I guess since N2 is "...going the way of the turd.." as some have put it the massive numbers of legacy devices out there are doomed to obsolesence, NOT !

If you really think about it, almost every manufacturer has some kind of gottcha with their stuff. Carrier, Trane, York (JCI own's them and they don't use JCI controls ?) McQuay etc all have proprietary software. Some allow non-OEM's to buy it, some don't. So explain why N2 is so "Doomed" please ?

Kinda Hi-Jacked, sorry.

[Chris_Worthington]

Stand alone stuff I really like the FX-07 and the FX-15, BTW :D

Primarily due to the local display on "a" piece of equipment.

There is NO way "I" would ever again implement anything JCI on a broad scale until some major issues have been proven to be resolved beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt. JMO :D

[s2sam]

<snip>
s2sam, you did clarify, no apology needed. Accept mine as I missed it, sorry !!

I won't be disapointed if the FX-Field Gear goes away as long as we get another N2 device (JCI has implied that we will see an FX-PC N2 version possibly late 2011/early 2012, Really ????) to replace the FX-Field gear/Legacy ASC's.

I guess since N2 is "...going the way of the turd.." as some have put it the massive numbers of legacy devices out there are doomed to obsolesence, NOT !

If you really think about it, almost every manufacturer has some kind of gottcha with their stuff. Carrier, Trane, York (JCI own's them and they don't use JCI controls ?) McQuay etc all have proprietary software. Some allow non-OEM's to buy it, some don't. So explain why N2 is so "Doomed" please ?

Kinda Hi-Jacked, sorry.

Good day CCI,

Indeed, this may be the subject of another thread, but in response to your comments/questions...

No problems about missing my follow-up post, as I should have been more direct and/or clarified my previous FX-20 comment.

As for N2... if you or anyone else had the impression that I am a N2 doom-sayer, then I must also clarify as I am absolutely not... quite the opposite! Despite what others have stated, I feel that N2 is going to be around for some time either with or without JCI's involvement. I see and speak to so many big boys that have tons of N2 installed which translates to large $$$ invested in the N2 infrastructure. If JCI or others think that these companies/institutions are simply going to rip out and replace perfectly working n2 installs in order to use some new gear, then they are talking to a whole lot different group than I speak with. For the people I speak with, they have just too much invested to simply throw it all away for simply no net gain (i.e. economic payback given the replacement cost and new features... and possibly new bugs ... introduced). Do I think N2 is going to around forever? No, but I do see it around for sometime if for anything to allow some of those customers with large n2 investments to transition over to newer technologies.

On a secondary note, because of the smaller FX controller discontinuance, I have a number of my larger customers having my firm prepare possible custom solutions for them. Consequently, even if JCI does punt N2, I am certain that there will be options available... either by my firm or I am sure by others.

Cheers,

Sam

[prostock]

Sam is right that the FX05,7,14,15,16 line is being discontinued. But it is on a sales basis. I am not sure if the FX10 is inclusive of this, as it seems to be a OEM type product. I could not buy one from my ASI rep/supplier and I am and ASI. I will ask the JCI rep to clarify.

They currently do not support N2 in there PGC? product line (that looks like a great product) but a JCI rep for the product did tell us that they have considered it and may come out with it. I am really hoping they do. I could sell 50 of them tomorrow.

[BACnet]

s2sam,

I'm sure that everything you have said is true. There is a huge install base for N2 and making people rip our perfectly good controllers on a massive scale is not in anyone's best interest.

But from where I'm standing that simply means that N2 gateways will be around for a very long time. I'm not sure brand-new N2 controllers will be.

But it's all just a hunch right now. :)

-B

[Chris_Worthington]

All these warm and fuzzies and yet you are continuing down this road.....

Good luck and God bless ya :D

[prostock]

CCIKelly, I have an FX20 in the building right now, with an FX07 on N2 doing some small tower work. (I plan to get started with that) I will certainly have to add numerous additional FX20/60/70 devices to handle the 580 heat pumps that this project will eventually have, just to handle the address count. I expect point count to be about 10 per heat pump, so I will be at about 6000 points when done. 9 floors w/ 1 trunk per floor = 4 to 5 FX60s when complete, carrying about 1200 points each. That is if there is 10 per unit, and the points wont do much. Mass, but staggered s/s routines, temperature status and alarm monitoring, some mass setpoint changes. We will certainly need FXServer by the end. See any big problems with this plan? Anyone?

[Chris_Worthington]

You have "A"single device that costs squat tied into a JACE that could not even think about taking on an additional 580 nodes and yet???

Why??

Why not re-think this knowing what you know now?

[prostock]

I am open to suggestions. I am not the king of this stuff but I need to be in the face of my customer. That is why I am on here looking to learn and chat with the folks who have taken the butt-kickins. How would you approach this project? The only constant at this time is FX supervisory.

[Chris_Worthington]

I am open to suggestions. I am not the king of this stuff but I need to be in the face of my customer. That is why I am on here looking to learn and chat with the folks who have taken the butt-kickins. How would you approach this project? The only constant at this time is FX supervisory.

Why not tell them the truth about it and go from there???

[s2sam]

s2sam,

I'm sure that everything you have said is true. There is a huge install base for N2 and making people rip our perfectly good controllers on a massive scale is not in anyone's best interest.

But from where I'm standing that simply means that N2 gateways will be around for a very long time. I'm not sure brand-new N2 controllers will be.

But it's all just a hunch right now. :)

-B

Good day BACNet,

Indeed, I suspect that there will not be a company or companies making a complete product line that is strictly N2 based. However, N2 and MS/TP share the same electrical interface (RS485) and so it is rather trivial to have the same hardware that has different firmware versions to support MS/TP, N2, etc... As an example, virtually all of our newer hardware has RS485, Ethernet, gobs of power/RAM/Flash, and is field re-programmable (so the user can change from one protocol to another in the field)... consequently we can support N2, BACNet MS/TP, BACNet I/P, TCP/IP, Modbus, etc... If we can do it, and we are a small company, a number of other companies that are significantly larger than us can as well. Whether or not they want to is another issue altogether...

Cheers,

Sam

[s2sam]

I am open to suggestions. I am not the king of this stuff but I need to be in the face of my customer. That is why I am on here looking to learn and chat with the folks who have taken the butt-kickins. How would you approach this project? The only constant at this time is FX supervisory.

Good day Prostock,

Like I said in an earlier post, I know of a couple of reasonably sized FX-07 projects (connected to FX-60, etc) that are somewhat on hold for the various people to decide what to do given the FX-07, etc notice of discontinuance. I know in one case there was an issue in being able to find 30 or 40 FX-07s for one portion of the project... some were eventually found, but what will supply be like in 4-6 months from now? Hard to say, as it is anyone's guess. All I know is that I am glad that I am not the one making the decision... Sorry, I cannot be more help!

Cheers,

Sam

[prostock]

This job is FX10 OEM style boards factory programmed supplied in water water source heat pumps. It is the FX10 that is in question. All I would do is map them up and do some S/S and setpoint control. Currently N2 is winning the conversation.

I would not think of using the other FX controllers due for discontinuation to layout this job. I am inquiring of the life of the FX10 to the JCI rep and will see from there.

Thanks.