Sunrise/Sunset

[fculotta]

Can sunrise and sunset from the weather service be used to schedule exterior lighting? If so, how?

[fculotta]

I forgot to add that this is in reference to the FX Supervisor (Jace)

[osiyo]

Can sunrise and sunset from the weather service be used to schedule exterior lighting? If so, how?

I haven't done it, but I don't see why you couldn't.

However, to my own way of thinking, I'm not sure that's the best approach on projects I do.

Typically, for exterior lighting we provide multiple control methods. Any of which might be applied to any single light or group of lights.

(1) Scheduling only

(2) Outdoor ambient light level (light level sensor)

(3) Combination schedule and light level

i.e. For method #3. If exterior lights are scheduled to shut off, but ambient light levels are too low (cloudy day) ... lights stay on. In short, doesn't matter what the "official" sunrise time is. If its too dark, lights stay on.

We introduced that logic at the request of several customers who had folks coming in early, specifically female types, and they didn't want them wandering dark parking lots and walkways.

OTOH, they wanted scheduling so they could declare days as non-working days, so lights would be off on those days, regardless.

We don't check any service to find out sunrise/sunset times. We pre-program a lookup table. System just checks current date against table.

[Chris_Worthington]

Typically, for exterior lighting we provide multiple control methods. Any of which might be applied to any single light or group of lights.

(1) Scheduling only

(2) Outdoor ambient light level (light level sensor)

(3) Combination schedule and light level

I do the same but I also tie into the weather service for the sunset/sunrise times.

Just link the "sundown" Boolean point from the weather service current conditions to you're lighting logic. :D

[BACnet]

Based on your latitude and the day of the year you can determine sunup and sundown.

This can be helpful if you want distributed control in a lowly controller instead of a web-linked one.

[orion242]

I always go with the light sensor + schedule. They have their pick of the three options above and I only have to program one method to cover all options.

If you want light level only, set the schedule 24/7.
If you want schedule only, set the light sensor setpoint accordingly.

I have not really had much use for sunset/rise times. Most customers seem to be care more about the local light level than set times to kick on the lights. With the PSR-1 from Kele so cheap, it really makes little sense to get sunrise/set times from the internet or other source.

[Chris_Worthington]

I like to give options, their system their choice :D

I have it so that they can select any as the default and any combination that they prefer. Not my building and not my choice, its theirs.....

Customers love having options :D

[orion242]

Agreed

Maybe I should rephrase a bit. I have not had anyone request sunset/rise times over using a local light sensor yet.

[Chris_Worthington]

Agreed

Maybe I should rephrase a bit. I have not had anyone request sunset/rise times over using a local light sensor yet.

I have due to clouds, birds sitting on the lumen sensor and whatever else.. blah blah blah........

"If" it were my building, I would prefer all the above options to enable the lights :D

[WebCTRL]

"If" it were my building, I would prefer all the above options to enable the lights :D

I like all the above options but we have had alot of requests for sunrise/sunset time control but we programmed it in the controller for standalone capability but we also added an adjustable amount of time so the customer can have the lights on or off at sunset plus/minus XXhr:XXminutes and sunrise plus/minus XXhr:XXminutes.

[Chris_Worthington]

I like all the above options but we have had alot of requests for sunrise/sunset time control but we programmed it in the controller for standalone capability but we also added an adjustable amount of time so the customer can have the lights on or off at sunset plus/minus XXhr:XXminutes and sunrise plus/minus XXhr:XXminutes.

Okay to be honest :D

Sunset/Sunrise times are ALWAYS backed up by generally a schedule.

I personally could care less if the lights come on a little early/late as long as they come on when it is dark out.

Once again their choice and their responsibility to alter as needed.

But being that the "weather service" is an outside influence, I prefer a local backup :cheers:

[MatrixTransform]

the problem with sunset/sunrise is that there are lots of different times that represent different notions of sunrise/sunset ... Astonomical, nautical, civil.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/aboutastronomy.html#nt

If youre gonna set lighting based on times then it is best to know 'which' times you will be switching for.

I would not rely on the internet for this information...rather calculate myself inside the JACE ..... but that is a whole other kettle of fish!

<SNIP

double twAngle = -6.0; // For civil twilight, set to -12.0 for nautical, and -18.0 for astr. twilight
double srAngle = -35.0/60.0; // For sunrise/sunset

double sRiseT ; // For sunrise/sunset times
double sSetT ;
double srStatus;

double twStartT; // For twilight times
double twEndT ;
double twStatus;

double sDIST ; // Solar distance, astronomical units
double sRA ; // Sun's Right Ascension
double sDEC ; // Sun's declination
double sLON ; // True solar longitude



<SNIP>

[freddy-b]

the problem with sunset/sunrise is that there are lots of different times that represent different notions of sunrise/sunset ... Astonomical, nautical, civil.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/aboutastronomy.html#nt

If youre gonna set lighting based on times then it is best to know 'which' times you will be switching for.

I would not rely on the internet for this information...rather calculate myself inside the JACE ..... but that is a whole other kettle of fish!

<SNIP

double twAngle = -6.0; // For civil twilight, set to -12.0 for nautical, and -18.0 for astr. twilight
double srAngle = -35.0/60.0; // For sunrise/sunset

double sRiseT ; // For sunrise/sunset times
double sSetT ;
double srStatus;

double twStartT; // For twilight times
double twEndT ;
double twStatus;

double sDIST ; // Solar distance, astronomical units
double sRA ; // Sun's Right Ascension
double sDEC ; // Sun's declination
double sLON ; // True solar longitude



<SNIP>

dumba$$ T-Boxer.

[MatrixTransform]

dumba$$ T-Boxer.

yeah I know ... they forced me to have a lobotomy before I was allowed to use it ...

Get the Sun's Azimuth ... and position the blinds/shades.
Get it's Altitude and Azimuth and position the solar panels

...and imagine, all in real time without a download or interruption to all the other concurrent interfaces running on a single T-box...the ASD, SNMP, SMTP, Modbus, LON, Siemens, Bacnet ....it ALL just keeps running.

...at least the engineering consultants and building owners will still talk to me.
...cos ya'll know they're petty Dumb@$$ too.

Well...not so much dumb ... but plenty of @$$ though!

[MatrixTransform]

Oh yeah we poor old impoverished T-boxers can share code objects .... for those newbie T-boxers that dont know how yet... download the bog.file , open w'bench, find bog.file in directory on local machine, copy and past onto a wiresheet.
For those newbie T-Boxers that dont know how yet... you may need to load the ProgramService, and you may need to view the Program in editor mode then press F9 for an on-the-fly-compile.

Enter your Lat and Lon, adjust Twilight Angle... it should trigger every 5 sec.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7dOlE1j5BaXNGZkNDg4NWUtYTI4NS00YjY5LTg5N jMtZDRkMGIzYTM4MzU5&hl=en_GB&authkey=COzohL0H



PS ... Guess what Scrooloose ...

[scrooloose]

PS ... Guess what Scrooloose ...

What?

[osiyo]

Oh yeah we poor old impoverished T-boxers can share code objects .... for those newbie T-boxers that dont know how yet... download the bog.file , open w'bench, find bog.file in directory on local machine, copy and past onto a wiresheet.
For those newbie T-Boxers that dont know how yet... you may need to load the ProgramService, and you may need to view the Program in editor mode then press F9 for an on-the-fly-compile.

Enter your Lat and Lon, adjust Twilight Angle... it should trigger every 5 sec.



Thanks. Added it to my library of stuff, just in case I ever need it.

As I indicated before, typically we just use a lookup table of pre-calculated data. Not extremely accurate, since table does not contain data for every individual day, rather it has one sunup and one sunrise time for a range of days and we do a "if BETWEEN" comparison, then an offset depending on whether or not DST is in effect.

Started doing this kind of thing years ago, using older equipment (front ends). Pre-Niagara days. And have simply kept on using the method. Like I said, not extremely accurate but customers haven't complained.

We now do T-boxes (have for a few years now), and some other front ends. Including one that's proprietary to AAM, but which bears some similarity to the T-box concept. MatrixFT and Aspect Facility. These items use an embedded Linux OS and a Java based system on top of that.

Of course, the neat part is that both Java and Javascript are well documented, common programming languages with a huge, publicly available set of docs, tutorials, and pre-made libraries one can draw upon.

I looked at your BOG file (for the newbies, its just a zipped XML file, unzip it and you can view with any plain text editor or XML editor if you prefer).

Besides possible use in a future T-box project, looks like a piece of cake to convert for use in the Matrix/Aspect line of area controllers/servers.

Thanks, again. I like collecting this kind of stuff, even if I don't need it right now. I couldn't begin to guess how much time and effort I've saved in the past by referring to my library (kept logically organized) of routines, functions, etc and not having to re-invent a wheel someone has already made.

Especially given that I'm not the brightest apple on the tree.

[freddy-b]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2EHfTYPDjVjM34NXG2_XtVnlks8PtN Fh1h0Pld0mOVo4lUYaH&t=1
yeah I know ... they forced me to have a lobotomy before I was allowed to use it ...

Get the Sun's Azimuth ... and position the blinds/shades.
Get it's Altitude and Azimuth and position the solar panels

...and imagine, all in real time without a download or interruption to all the other concurrent interfaces running on a single T-box...the ASD, SNMP, SMTP, Modbus, LON, Siemens, Bacnet ....it ALL just keeps running.

...at least the engineering consultants and building owners will still talk to me.
...cos ya'll know they're petty Dumb@$$ too.

Well...not so much dumb ... but plenty of @$$ though!

Evil brainwashing with the low tech T-box. Its a conspiracy.

[freddy-b]

Where is Morpheaus anyway? Have not seen him in a couple days.

[freddy-b]

Anyway Loytec has a much better solution.
http://www.redorbit.com/modules/imglib/resize.php?Url=/modules/reflib/article_images/7_5c3cbc17d768b0b0835d504928bc384a.jpg&resize_type=fixed&width=250&height=180

With a way more intuitive interface.
http://www.chaoticsynapticactivity.com/images/military_pics/hudless-flight-helmet.jpg

[freddy-b]

http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/iStock_000003827645XSmall1.jpg

[freddy-b]

Instead of fighting about it. Why don't you just embrace the horror..........diversify your talents and branch out with some T-boxers?

[crab master]

While I admit I laughed, easy now...this is a part of the forum that is open to the public.

Somebody else built some quite accurate calculations good until 2030 I believe for stuff I deal with (TAC Xenta). After 2030 it just isn't as accurate. I added an adjustable additional amount of time before sunrise and after sunset cause as mentioned cloudy days or even parking garages need the buffer time. Last parking garage was a 80 minute add for before/after....
Light level sensors would be even better, if in the budget, but once you have the program it's maybe a 5 minute add...
Pretty nice to be able to post code like that on an open forum and gotta give it up for the t-box and the multiple flavors of integration it offers, not aware of anything that has near the integration capabilities.

[MatrixTransform]

What?

...I think it even works in the northern AND southern hemispheres.

:-)

[scrooloose]

...I think it even works in the northern AND southern hemispheres.

:-)

Which one you in?