Why won't the system pump down?

[mas6700]

Hello! I am a homeowner with a really tough problem involving a 3 1/2 year old Goodman/Janitrol system that nobody seems to know how to fix. I'm heading into my second month with no A/C here in the Wash. DC area, so your opinions and feedback about this situation would be greatly appreciated.

I'll try be as brief as possible:

On June 1 I turned on my A/C for the first time this season. After a few hours I noticed the house got warmer because I closed all the windows only to discover that the A/C was running but not cooling. To make a long story short I found out that the evaporator coil has sprung a leak so the system lost all it's freon. I had a friend who was visiting from SC help me find the leak using Nitrogen. (My friend owns a Electrical Contracting Co. and has now started doing some A/C repair work so he had some A/C repair tools with him in his truck). It was very easy to find: the leak was in one of the six capillary tubes in front of the coil and we found the leak because it was sitting in the condensate water bubbling away. At first we thought it could just be brazed but I was later told (by local A/C service companies) that doing so would diminish the coil's cooling capacity. Since the system has a 5 yr. warrantee on parts it was suggested that I might as well get the coil replaced.

After several weeks of misery I finally found a local A/C company here who was willing to get a replacement coil from Goodman under my warrantee. I paid for the labor to have the coil put in, and thought that I would soon have A/C again. No such luck...

After the coil was put in the service tech proceeded to purge the system. (He also added a line drier which seemed like a prudent thing to do). After nearly an hour the vacuum pump still had not been able to get below 1000 microns and in fact the pressure started to go back up! The tech. replace the pump's oil but at the end of the day he said he would just have to come back with a new pump and more oil. He did recharge the system with freon but when I ran the A/C for nearly 12 hours the house only cooled to 79 deg. over night.

The next day we started again to try to pump down the system, (after reclaiming the freon of course). Again after an hour of pumping the system still would not drop below 1050 micron. He put nitrogen on the system and pumped it up to at least 150 psig to look for possibly another leak but found none. The technician was also continuously changing out his pump oil. I asked he why he was doing that and he said it was because the oil was being contaminated with moisture; he said it was easy to see since the oil starts off as a light golden color and then turns a milky white color once it's contaminated. The oil being contaminated is also the reason why the pressure starts to go back up after a while.

Well we did this for nearly five hours. The tech. pumped up the system twice with Nitrogen, and went through nearly 2 gal of pump oil, but we were never able to get below 970 microns. Before you ask, yes we checked the pump's lines for leaks, and several other places by closing the valves on the manifold, and the vacuum went down to under 100 microns. But while pumping on the whole system we could never get below 1000 microns apparently because there is a lot of moisture in the system.

The technician eventually gave up trying to pump down the system and just recharged it. The A/C does seem to work a little better than before but after just a few hours the coolant gas return hovers in the mid 60 deg. F. range (it's supposed to be in the mid to low 50 deg. F range I was told). Even worse, after about three or four hours the compressor starts to make a very loud hum that is significantly different than it's usual operating sound, and finally the compressor/condenser trips my 40A circuit breaker. I have not run the system since.

The company that "fixed" my system says that I have water in my compressor and/or condenser but that they can't get it out so they say that I need to replace the entire unit. Unfortunately they won't go to Goodman to get a new unit under my warrantee so I'm stuck now with no A/C and a labor bill that accomplished nothing. I called Goodman customer service and they say its up to the repair company to work with Goodman to diagnose what to do next. This is now just adding insult to injury.

The bottom line is this: It seems fairly obvious that when the coil leaked out all its freon the system then pulled in the water that the capillary tube was sitting in (stupid design) which then contaminated my condenser and probably my compressor. This water contamination is probably significant which might explain why the system can't be pumped down, and also why the compressor makes a lot of noise and eventually overloads the circuit because its struggling to compress water vapor and not freon.

So what can I do about this? Can the water contamination be removed or do I have to replace the condenser and compressor? Is there now water contamination everywhere in the system including the new evaporator coil so the whole bleeping system is now shot? Even if I have to buy a new compressor and condenser, would it be worth it to put more money into this Goodman/Janitrash system, or just get a whole new system from Carrier or Lenox?

Thank you very much for reading this sad story, and thanks in advance for your help!!

mas6700

[Wild Leg]

The fix would have been to change the oil in the compressor.

It's probably too late for that now.
The tripped breaker does not bode well.
My guess is that the compressor is toast.
Goodman should still have to warranty at least the compressor, IMO.
You most likely will get to pay the labor, shipping, etc.

Get several bids on a new system, so that you can make an "educated decision" on whether or not to pour money into this turkey.

[mas6700]

That's a good point about the compressor oil. I didn't think about that but it would make sense. Curious why the technician who spent the whole afternoon changing the oil in his pump didn't think about the compressor oil either.

Yeah, the system never tripped the circuit breaker before now and the noises the compressor makes definitly isn't normal. I think the compressor may still work but if I try to run the system in its current state it will be toast for sure.

Trying to get anyone around here to do Goodman warantee work is a challenge to say the least, but its either that or buy a whole new system. I wouldn't mind if it was a little older but I would have expected the A/C system that came with my new townhouse to last a little longer than 3 1/2 years...

Thanks for your input. It helps!

mas6700

[Shophound]

Moisture is the culprit, here. You can proceed with a compressor change-out if indeed it is toast, but it needs to be followed up with a thorough evacuation and perhaps a replaceable core suction line drier in addition to a new liquid line drier so at least one or two core changes can get any remaining moisture out of the system.

Just pray your system isn't full of green slime. If that's happened, you're in for new EVERYTHING. :(

[cehs]

Who put your system in?
Are they still in business?
Call them, they should be able to do you right.
A new system in ANY brand is going to cost, don't give up because of one repair.
Would you go buy a new car because of a flat tire?
I believe a new compressor (under warrenty for 5yr-10SEER or 10yr-12SEER) should solve your problem, if done properly.....

[mas6700]

The system came with the town house that was new construction. You know builders... they give you the cheapest possible equipment and materials they can legally get away with.

The subcontractor who put in the system I believe was also the company who did the electical work. Curiously I just last week got a post card from them offering a discount on a new A/C system. Gee, whatta amazing coincidence. The electical work they did on my town house was really pathetic so I've been hesitant to call them, but you have a point since they were the original company who put in the system in the first place. If nothing else they may at least get me a replacement compressor from Goodman whereas this other company I think doesn't want to deal with this lost cause any more.

The only reason why I've been contemplating replacing the whole system is that I figure the whole thing is so screwed up now that I might as well put in a quality furnace and A/C unit a few years earlier and then not have to worry about it. But your point about that being a real waste is well taken. I agree but it's getting difficult going week after week with no A/C and no one willing to try to fix it unless I just buy new replacement equipment.

to shophound: I appriciate your input about putting in an additional replaceable core suction line drier in addition to a new liquid line drier. No doubt this mositure has been circulating thoughout the whole system which is probably why it runs OK for a little while and then starts cavitating or whatever else its doing that causes the compressor to exceed it's current rating and trip my circuit breaker. I can picture a "bubble" of water vapor being pushed around and then causing my compressor to have problems when it circulates back. G-d what a nightmare....

Thanks for your input!

mas6700

[docholiday]

First I would go changing the compressor unless a megohm test is done. If the insulation on the windings is damaged then replace it (compressor). Also test the oil with an acid test kit. Then the correct thing to do would be change the oil in the compressor (unless replaced). If the compressor is replaced the coils should be purged with nitrogen. An acid clean up drier such as a Sporlan HH reier is needed. A suction line drier can also be used but it needs to be removed at the end of the service.

A triple evacuation needs to be perfomred using Nitrogen to break the vaccuum between evacuations, not refrigerant. This will chase out any moisture or non-condensibles. Finally the last vacuum needs to get to 500 microns. If it will not, you either still have moisture or a leak. Once it is down to 500 microns and holds. Virgin refrigerant should be used and weighed in. Run the system for an hour or so and pump it down or recover the refrigerant, remove the suction drier completely and repipe. Replace the liquid line drier with a new clean up drier and open the valves or recharge (preferably with virgin refrigerant).

Your system should be back to normal. I would anticipate this taking the better part of a day to complete properly.

By the way, I commend your technician for changing his vacuum pump oil the way he did. It sounds like other than the not perfromaing the tripple evacuation he was doing the right thing. I also like to use 1/4 copper tubing with flare nuts on the gauges for vacuuming the system in such a condition.

[mas6700]

Thanks docholiday for taking the time to explain some of the details of what really needs to be done. I agree with you that the system probably can be fixed with a lot of work and testing and patients, but trying to find a company here in the Wash DC area who would do all of this is next to impossible. And even if I could they would no doubt charge me a fortune for labor especially if it really requires what you're talking about where it'll need practically a whole day's worth of work. Plus, who knows what else I'm going to find is wrong with this POS system once all this stuff is done and I've paid for hours and hours of labor.

I'm leaning towards just cutting the whole system loose and putting in a new Lennox or Carrier. By the time I have to pay for a new system with their deferred financing my current system's warantee will be gone, not that the manufacturer seems to care anyway. The bottom line is that I just will have to bite the bullet and throw a whole lot of money at the situation so I can get on with my life... and get some sleep.

If you or anyone else out there has a better idea I'd be happy to hear it. Thanks!! mas6700

[dorrmann]

mas6700, I agree with you that they will probably charge you a lot in labor. Just as docholiday said, it will take the better part of a day to complete it properly. You'll get 7-8 hours worth of labor charges, plus virgin refrigerant, driers, maybe torch charge, nitrogen, vacuum pump oil, etc.

[docholiday]

Its your call.

As a footnote, I am sure the mfg of your equipment offeredan optional labor warranty. Since you had a new construction job it was probably not offered as you apparently had no relationship with the contractor. 3/4 of a day labor at 80 bucks an hour is 600 bucks plus some materials, a far cry from the cost of a new system. 3.5 years is awful early to give up on it. You could ask for an estimate or a quote.

The warranty is just that. If a part fails, you will be provided a replacement part. A leak would generally only require a repair but if the coil was covered then a coil could have been given. An extended or optional warranty may offset the costs of parts and labor for up to 10 years. Unlike the ones offered by automotive dealers, the ones in this trade are usually worth every penny. Generally one or two failures pays for the warranty. For those who want this kind of coverage, they should select the complete coverage. It generally is too late to ask for it when you need it later.

If you do rip it out, find a compitent contractor in your area. Im not sure where you live but consider someone like the Nugent brothers who take the extra step to insure you are happy. Last time I checked, they offer a 100% satisfaction garentee.

[Edited by docholiday on 07-07-2005 at 08:38 PM]

[Shophound]

to shophound: I appriciate your input about putting in an additional replaceable core suction line drier in addition to a new liquid line drier. No doubt this mositure has been circulating thoughout the whole system which is probably why it runs OK for a little while and then starts cavitating or whatever else its doing that causes the compressor to exceed it's current rating and trip my circuit breaker. I can picture a "bubble" of water vapor being pushed around and then causing my compressor to have problems when it circulates back. G-d what a nightmare....


You can bet good money that when that leak in your evap sucked in moisture, it also sucked in non-condensibles with it. This is more than likely causing high head pressure, which strains the compressor, which could in turn trip the breaker.

Before proceeding any further with this compressor I'd put a megger on the windings to see if there's any hope. If that passes muster you might get by with this compressor after a thorough cleanup but I'd be leery of it.

If you go for a compressor changeout (vs. a new system), the only way I'd have any confidence this system might live to fight another day is for the tech to do everything doc mentioned. Triple evac, change out suction drier at least once, acid and moisture tests. Thing is, it's a sad state of affairs that the resi tech able and/or willing to be this thorough is a rare bird. Many times they have the will but a boss that says "hurry hurry" so doing things the right way gets shelved in favor of the big mad rush.

Even sadder still is the risk you run, if you go with a new system, of getting a crew of attic monkeys that slap it in rather than the careful attention to detail this form of work demands.

<shaking head> Folks, it shouldn't be this bad. And yeah, that goes for cheap coils that leak, too!

[docholiday]

So we let him reaplace the unit and leave the same lines installed?

What happened to service techincians, why do they have to sell equipment? Its no wonder the new guys dont learn how to service anything, all they see is the lead guy sell.

So next year how do we handle this? I mean the price difference between a replacement and a repair will be higher and descisions may be made to repair versus replace.

Glad I didnt throw my big screen away, 300 bucks to reapir it properly saved me 1800 for a plastic version of what I have and would only have 1 tuner and 1/2 the watts. I tipped my service guy.

[Steve Wiggins]

mas6700, has your contractor been compensated for the work he has done so far? Not by you but by the manufacturer?

[docholiday]

Steve,

The system is 3.5 years old and unless there is a specific warranty that covers labor, there would be no labor coverage. Why is it the warranty is good enough when the unit is purchased but when theres a problem its not? In this case, its a construction home and he didnt likely get offered that warranty.

[mas6700]

That's a good question but I really have no idea. I was able to convince this particular contractor that I needed the coil by describing what I did with my friend to find the leak, and I told them that I had already verified with Goodman that the system and the coil in particular was under warantee by calling a Goodman distributor in the Wash. DC area and giving them my coil's serial number. This contract then went to their own distributor to get a replacement coil which they showed up with when they first came out to my house. (The fact that they were willing to take my word that what I needed was a new coil was a small miricle considering that 99.99% of all contractors will only come out to do a diagnostic evaluation for a fee before they doing anything else).

I paid this contractor almost $600 to put in the coil and recharge the system, but I don't know what is going on between them and Goodman. I've been reading in this forum and other places that Goodman can be a PITA to work with which would explain why the contractor will not work anymore with the rest of the system that is also supposedly under warantee. The whole thing boils down to Goodman with their crappy equipment and support. I had no choice in the matter since this was what the builder gave me with the new construction of my townhouse. Changing the furnace/AC equipment brand or model was not negotiable.

mas6700

[Steve Wiggins]

In my experience with Goodman warranties when I bring in the failed part I never seem to get credit for it without a major fight. In fact one time I brought in a failed compressor and I was billed for the failed one AND for the new one. It has gotten to the point that I just tell customers to call someone else if they have a Goodman warranty issue.

[jim reynolds]

Air, moisture, refrigerant mixture gives you acid, eats away at the windings of the compressor. Compressor is done. Find cost of compressor change done properly with driers and vaccuum you can save the unit. All that's left is comparing the price to a new system. I didn't see where you said what the size of the system is. Depending on size the fix could be relatively inexpensive compared to a new system.

[mas6700]

Steve -- Your experience with Goodman warranties sounds typical based on my unofficial survey of AC repair companies in the Wash. DC area. In my search to find someone to work on my system I had at least three companies tell me they do not do Goodman warantee work even though they advertise in the yellow pages that their service included Goodman/Janitrol equipment. One other company wanted proof that my equipment was under warrantee. When I told them that all I had was the paperwork that I got when I settled on the new townhouse they hung up on me.

By the way when I dug out my HVAC equipment paperwork I discovered that I could have bought an 'extended' warrantee that would have covered up to $400 in labor. When you're handed a ton of paper during your closing it's hard to recognize the significance of things like extended warrantees.

Just to let everyone know, I really appriciate all your comments and input on this unfortunate situation. I extend my sincere thanks to docholiday, shophound and everyone else for your helpful comments.

Jim -- I don't have the exact specs because I can't find a website where I can look up the model numbers of the compressor and coils, but I've been told tha the compressor/condenser unit is 3.5 tonn and the coil is sized as a 4 tonn. Based on what everyone has been saying this system is probably now really screwed up since it's been recharged while it still has a fair amount of moisture in it. Then to make matters worse I've tried running it for several hours which probably circulated the moisture/air/freon mixture through out the feed and return tubing and my new 'leak free' evaporator coil.

So the way I see it I have the following options: (1) I can try to get someone to come out and do an extensive clean up of my compressor, condenser, feed lines and probably my evaporator in an effort to remove any acid that has formed and to do a triple evacuation, etc. as docholiday explained. Since this approach would be to try to save the compresser I should probably also make sure first that the compressor isn't already fried by doing a megaohm test. (2) The second option is to get the compresser/condensor unit replaced either under Goodman's warrantee (long shot), or just buy a new Goodman unit and then make sure that the remaining system is throughly cleaned up so I don't destroy the replacement compressor. (3) The third option is to just trash the whole system and buy a new compressor and coil and get new feedlines put in or get the existing lings cleaned with guaranteed assurance that there will no residual contaminates left. The trouble with this approach is that I would be putting a quality system like Carrier or Lennox on top of my old Goodman furnace and blower which doesn't seem like a great idea. (4) Finally the last approach is to just replace the whole thing and have the peace of mind that I have a reliable new system with a real warantee for both the winter and summer. I may have a nervous breakdown worrying about how I'm going to pay for a new $12K system, but at least I'll be comfortable.

Given my experience up to now with trying to get someone in this area to fix this system, I don't think the first two options would be worth the effort or cost. I've even been considering getting my 608 Type I EPA certification and then buying all the repair equipment so I can try to fix it myself, but I don't really have the time to spend on such an adventure. I got a quote from a local dealer who has NATE certified technicians for the top of the line Lennox system (XC21 and G61V) with the PureAir filter and an AprilAir humidifier all for about $12K installed. Considering that all I did was just try to turn on my AC six weeks ago and now I'm looking at spending $12K, it's makes one pause for a sanity check. But Lennox is also offering a 18 month same as cash, no down payment finance plan, so I'd essentially have a year and a half to save up to pay for this new system. By that time the house will be 5 years old and the Goodman system will be completly out of warantee, (as if that really is gonna make a difference), at which point I'll be considering a new system anyway unless the existing furnace and born again AC system is still running, which at this point seems like wishful thinking. The easiest option is to just spend the money and worry about it later. Isn't that the American way?

Thanks again for all your help!

Mike Schwartz

[docholiday]

so get a new goodman outdoor unit and buy the extended warrantee with it. :)

[tinknocker service tech]

doc i couldnt agree more seems it is easer for some techs to sellit then fix it.
if the compreesor is to be replaced. after the compressor is removed from the unit before the new one is installed have them blow out the system with nitrogen both ways to get anything and remaining oil out as much as possible. then as doc said and it should be fine for a long time.
to replace a 3.5 year old system just because it is easer is a sin. even if you can afford to replace it
a good tech can put this system back on line as long as it is done properly

[mas6700]

Doc and Tech -- I appriciate your pressing me to really try to fix this system rather than just throw a whole lot of money at the situation. I haven't made any final decisions yet so I still have an opportunity to do the right thing. I guess I'm being enticed by all the fancy brosures for new equipment.

What really worries me about trying to fix this system at this point is making sure it gets done right so I don't screw up a replacement compressor and condensor and just prolong this nightmare indefinitely. I will make up a detailed list of all the work that you guys have talked about and go over it with the company that put in the evap. coil and see what they say about it. I agree with you all that the system could be fixed if its done right, I just don't have a lot of confidence that I'm going to find a company who will do everything that is necessary so the system isn't left as a ticking time bomb. The fact that you guys have exlained all of this stuff for me has been a tremendous help and I really appriciate it. I'll post what I find out about getting the system repaired. I'm in no hurry to go (another) $12K into debt...

[jrc2905]

Could someone list what is the procedure is for removing the oil from a hermetric compressor?

[jetstream]

jrc, thanks for asking the very question I was wanting to ask. On a residential system it's not something I've ever had occasion to do.

[ravenx]

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in nashville, the local goodman distributor will hand you part for part if the unit is in warranty with no questions asked. Like Doc said, I'd make them stand good on the warranty and replace every defective part. Mas6700, send me the model and serial number. I bet the local guys here would even replace the parts if you sent them.

[Edited by ravenx on 07-09-2005 at 12:27 PM]

[ravenx]

Originally posted by jrc2905
Could someone list what is the procedure is for removing the oil from a hermetric compressor?
The standard procedure is to place a hand pump hose into the suction line at the compressor, and remove the oil into a measuring container. That way, you'll know how much to put back in. You can also ask you locaL parts house what the exact amount is that the compressor holds. The hand pump won't remove all the oil, so if you can, remove the compressor and tilt it to remove what's left.After this proceedure, the compressor needs to sit upright for a few hours before the unit is started.

[ct2]

Could someone list what is the procedure is for removing the oil from a hermetric compressor?

Drill a hole in the bottom of the compressor

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by jrc2905
Could someone list what is the procedure is for removing the oil from a hermetric compressor?

Remove compressor, invert for a few hours.

[dnt]

ravenx you a vorhees or johnstone guy?

[jrc2905]

"Could someone list what is the procedure is for removing the oil from a hermetric compressor?

Drill a hole in the bottom of the compressor"


How do you get your drill "under" the compressor?

LOL





[Edited by jrc2905 on 07-10-2005 at 10:16 AM]

[docholiday]

I found sticking a 1/4" plastic tube down in through the suction port into the bottom of the compressor and then sticking another just inside the suction port. Seal around both and blow nitrogen (slowly, very slowly) through the one that you put in second. The pressure will force the oil out the other one. make usre you collect it into a container as mentioned to recharge it with the same amount of new oil.

[tinknocker service tech]

Originally posted by docholiday
I found sticking a 1/4" plastic tube down in through the suction port into the bottom of the compressor and then sticking another just inside the suction port. Seal around both and blow nitrogen (slowly, very slowly) through the one that you put in second. The pressure will force the oil out the other one. make usre you collect it into a container as mentioned to recharge it with the same amount of new oil.

doc that has to be the easest and most intelagent ways i have heard of
even though i only done it 2 times. if i ever have to change the oil in a resi unit i will try this
thanks