night club load capacity

[rdmcgady]

I'm working on a job right now, for a real ball-buster. He wants to know what the difference is between his customers who are dancing and the others who are just sitting. Ths situation is a bar with lots of appliances and computers but no kitchen. He said he heard that the difference between a sitting person is approximately, 600 to 800 btu's required to cool that room. I said I thought it was less but I'd check it out. Anybody got something on this????

[john dalton]

Dear Rdmcgady,

Try the following site friend:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/persons-heat-gain-31_242.html

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

Make sure your system can handle the latent load of all those people dancing, as well as those that left the dance floor to get another drink or to sit down again. Don't forget to look at the glass washers too.

You have a dense occupancy so the ventilation load will be high, worse if they still allow smoking. If you are in a humid area, the latent load of the ventilation air will be enomormous.

I am in a year round cooling environment, a humid location and from my experience, night clubs are a rare load here that can require reheat.

Many options out there but geographic location is a major factor in chosing the best option.

I would suggest you get the ball buster to commit in writing to a set number of people to design around. More people means more cooling and more upfront cost to the owner. Just a way of covering yourself when they over crowd the place then complain later that it is not cool enough inside.

[rdmcgady]

335 people, Chicago, smoking, dancehall, one wall (55 ft. by 5 ft.) westward facing thermal pane windows, appliances include 8 coolers, 5 plasma tvs, 14 speakers, fully equppied dj booth, and computer registers, I told the guy he needs 35 tons to keep that room nice. Agree??

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by rdmcgady
He said he heard that the difference between a sitting person is approximately, 600 to 800 btu's required to cool that room. I said I thought it was less but I'd check it out. Anybody got something on this????

You can tell him that hot chicks put off several thousand btu's,maybe more depending on how they're dressed.His numbers are a little low...

[Carnak]

The place is active at night so the sun and ambient won't be a big deal.

How exactly are you handling the ventilation a separate system or this one?

Do you have to provide 30 CFM per person fresh air?

[rdmcgady]

ventilation, this one
30 cfm not necessary

[Carnak]

Last question, what is the volume of the place? floor area and height?

[john dalton]

Dear Rdmcgady,

Unless this night club is outdoors the ventilation rate based upon the number of patrons is extremely important and should be included in any attempt to design an HVAC system for this project. A minimal rate of between 15 and 20 CFM per person should be considered unless you know something about this project that we at this thread do not.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

I have had success with low ventilation rates, staff commenting that their clothes did not smell like ashtrays the next morning.

[john dalton]

Dear Carnak,

What would you consider ‘low ventilation rates”?

ASHRAE, OSHA, UMC, OSHPD, and most federal, state, and local municipalities agree that under “normal” occupied conditions that the minimum level of outside ventilation per person be between 15 and 20 CFM in order to replenish the area’s or room’s oxygen supply, remove carbon dioxide, remove any off-gassing, remove concentrated radon levels, and dilute the inside environment with outside air.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

In my situation it was about 9 CFM per person.

You can take steps to exhaust smoke and use better filtration as well.

I am well aware of the ventilation rates. They are easier to follow in a northern dry climate, difficult in tropical humid environments.

[john dalton]

Dear Carnak,

Living and working in the Los Angeles, CA area where the climate is more on the dry side, I can appreciate the unique challenges that one must face when the outside environment is as humid as yours must be.

Filtration other than some type of electronic, carbon based or HEPA media would be the only way I would know of removing the small molecular structures of vapors and particulates to reduce the overall ventilation rate, do you use these types of filtration at your facilities?

Area or spot exhaust ventilators are a better way to reduce the ventilation rate when the problematic areas are concentrated within a given area or section.

Do you use desiccant wheel technology; it seems that it would be a perfect application under the conditions you have posted?

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

I considered desicicant wheels but no manufacturer answered my concerns of the effect of salt on their wheels.

I had a good situation where the entrance to the washrooms was adjacent to the area next to the dance floor.

I had steady exhaust from washrooms, a dedicated exhaust from the club beside the dance floor, and the large central return for the AC adjacent to the dance floor.

Supply air was distributed everywhere but the dance floor, the washrroms and the area adjacent to the dance floor where the exhaust and return grille was.

Cigarette smoke from the entire club therefore migrated past the dance floor to the negative area adjacent to it. So much so, it worked with the laser lights.

The unit had pleated 30% pre filters then 80/85% rigaflo final filters.

The main complaint was the disco smoke machine plume shoots out across the dance floor and turns 180 degrees by the time it rises to the ceiling then gets 'sucked' out of the club.

When they over load that club, the fresh air per person drops down to about 5 CFM per, unit can hold the place at 80 with less than 60% RH when overloaded.




[Edited by Carnak on 07-09-2005 at 05:08 PM]

[john dalton]

Dear Carnak,

Overloaded at 80 degrees F and <60% RH isn’t bad, do you monitor the oxygen or CO levels when there’s a large crowd?

What’s the reasoning behind the 80/85% rigidflow absolute filtration; it’s not efficient in smoke or odor elimination as a HEPA rated 95% might be, and it’s more filtration than one would need for normal atmospheric particulate control, are you trying to reduce something else at the club other than what has been posted so far?

The supply, return, and exhaust airflow patterns you outlined sound efficient.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

The amount of fresh air is fixed. There are no sensors.

The riga-flos were the best they could get for the money. To get your money's worth out of a HEPA, it could clog up to 3" drop before they become ineffective. A VFD drive can compensate for a loaded filter, no VFD on this job. Was out of budget too. The main reason these were out of budget was that owners anticipated standard packaged units not custom built which was used.

This drives were set for pre and final filters half loaded so slightly over delivers when clean and not too much under delivering when the filters get loaded.

[john dalton]

Dear Carnak,

If you use a 95% multiplate type filter element, such as a Aerostar FP95, the pressure drop will actually be slightly “less” than your standard 80/85% ones, and would address the job of removing the submicron level down to 0.3, but I do confess they would be approximately 4 to 5 times more expensive than your standard 80/95% ones, and probably out of the budget range of the Client.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

deleted, thought you were talking about HEPAs again

editted in, I bet they are using 65% rigaflos now


[Edited by Carnak on 07-09-2005 at 06:11 PM]

[jpb2]

Carns, i am using uv to control smoke in a Eagles club job. looks like a cool set up. all in r/a. 1st past a set of uvv bolbs to oxidize smoke then past a boiwall to kill the ozone and smell/ using a bank of 1" pleats (other than filters in package units) to take care of residue

[john dalton]

Dear Jpb2

Have you done any quantified measured analyses of the before and after air for this system?

How does it seem to work?

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Jpb2

I’m I to understand that the boiwall you are referring to is a standard 1” thick pleated 30% filter? If so, how often is this filter replaced?

Thank you for your comments friend.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

If you ever get back to us rd, what is the volume of this club, foot print and height of the conditioned space.

[jpb2]

Mr. Dalton please check out sanuvox dot com for case studies. Thanks, jpb

[rdmcgady]

Carnak:
the volume of the space is 5000 sq feet, 9 feet ceilings

[john dalton]

Dear Jpb2,

Thank you for the information, I’ve already started to read up on this process. What particular model, or models do you have, how long ago did you install them, and how are they working to date?

What’s the cost factor compared to standard UV stick tube products?

And lastly, would you install them on another project given the increased cost factor vs. experienced payback?

Thank you for your actual field experiences regarding this product in your application.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[Carnak]

Originally posted by rdmcgady
Carnak:
the volume of the space is 5000 sq feet, 9 feet ceilings

I took a quick look at this project and I made some assumptions.

I am assuming trying to maintain 78F and 60%RH.

You will have a HUGE year round large latent load to deal with, and the outdoor condition I would base the cooling on would be the worst case humidity of the area. For O'Hare they give that as 84F with 130 grains.

The latent load from occupants will be greater than the sensible load of occupants plus most likely those from lights, appliances and through the envelope combined.

I looked at perhaps 150 people dancing, with a heat gain per occupant of 405 sensible and 875 latent. I took the remaining 185 people at 315 sensible and 325 latent.

The latent load is way bigger than sensible, you will need reheat.

I allowed about 20,000 sensible to cover one wall some appliances and lights. No Rhyme or reason just pulled it out of my head. It will not make much difference if it is actually higher as you will need a lot of reheat. Less reheat if more.

If you can get away with a lower ventialtion rate like 10 CFM per person, I think you will need about 50 tons plus reheat.

You will probably be about 9000 CFM, with a supply temperature of 63 F dry bulb and a wet bulb down around 55.5F.

5650 CFM of return mixes with 3350 CFM of outside air, mixed condition around 80.26db 71.63wb. You would need something that could pull that mixed air down to about saturated at 50F.

You would then reheat this air to about 61F and heat from the fan and motor would bring it up to around 63F.

STandard packaged equipment will not be able to control the humidity but you could augment them with dehumidifiers.

A custom built package with hot gas reheat would be about 40 US, and more if gas heat was needed as well.

If the custom built unit would not scare the owner, click on my profile and email me. I can give you a contact name of a supplier with offices and tech support in Chicago area.

Hope they have a decent electrical service.

I usually do a moisture balance to double check everything but have not had a chance. Probably condensate come off this unit at over 0.5 GPM., about 278 lb/hr.

[jpb2]

Mr. Dalton this is the first install in my territory. We have another office in Indiana who has had great service out of a job done in a bowling alley. I believe the bulb life is approx 1 year in most locations. Sanuvox will designand guarantee it to work so the cost is not as much a problem as knowing the job will work. The job I am doing has 8 multi 24's and 4 biowall 60g. 3 15 ton rtu's (economizers are a must) and 1- 7.5 ton in a smaller gane room. As costs are not to be discussed here. I can say the whole smoke control adder on this project was only 30% more than eac's which imho will not do as well and require more maint. The job also came with one extra set of bulbs.

[john dalton]

Dear Jpb2,

Thank you for the information, I’ll have to keep my eyes and ears open for additional information regarding this application of particulate, smoke, and odor control.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton