Need advice- HP just went up & it's being replaced tomorrow

[tobnpr]

Sure could use some advice; need to replace one of my heat pumps...
My 20 year old Comfortmaker (3 ton) was blowing hot air last night so I called a contractor out this morning. He said the comressor had lost all refrigerant, and it appeared the badly rusted accumulator tank was the culprit. He suggested reparing such an old, inefficient unit would be ill-advised and I figured that made sense.

I'm a commercial framing contractor but have no experience in this arena (or contacts on such short notice). Fortunately I have a two zone system, but the MBR is upstairs and it's HOT here in FL, so I authorized the following: Replace the old 3 ton Comfortmaker with (his recommendation) a 3.5 ton Goodman (13 SEER); cost including today's holiday service callXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I know the forum rules say no pricing, but I'm hoping someone can tell me this is reasonable (I just don't wanna get ripped-off). I've read good & bad about Goodman in the little time I've had to research today. Should I go forward with this install tomorrow am or cancel??? HELP

[Edited by lusker on 07-04-2005 at 09:43 PM]

[Freezeking2000]

If you are changing just the outdoor unit keep it at 3 tons. Do not oversize just the outdoor unit. I think you should also get the indoor unit changed out, but this time of year is not the best time to price shop and attics are not a good place to work in July.

Get him to put in another 3 ton.

[tobnpr]

I am planning on replacing the handler also-as you suggest. I'm trying to reconfigure a linen closet to get the handler inside the house instead of the attic. Since this is going to happen in the short-term, is it OK to go with the 3.5 ton? I added a small amount of footage (about 250 sf by enclosing a porch) and wanted the extra BTU's? Any opinion on Goodman?

[Irascible]

If you know it's against forum rules then why are you doing it?

If you're a price shopper then get on the phone and call around until someone tells you what you want to hear.

If you're not a price shopper then start looking for a good contractor. From what you've said thus far I have my doubts about your current contractor. Just arbitrarily upgrading a half ton is foolish. Can the existing air handler deliver 3.5 tons of air? What is it currently delivering? Can the coil handle 3.5 tons? Do you even need 3.5 tons? And if you're not a price shopper then read the third link in my signature and believe it.

You might be better off sweating for a little while until you get yourself educated.

[tobnpr]

Irascible:
Your reply is condescending and I resent it.
I am NOT price shopping. This is an emergency repair and I was just looking for someone to day "O.K." or "NOT O.K.".

You can sweat yourself, brother. I may be a brand new participant here looking for some quick advice, but that's no reason to jump down my throat.

Lose your attitude.

[penderway]

Consider removing and bypassing the leaking accumulator as an emergency repair. This relatively small investment will buy you the time you need to have your system properly evaluated.

[Steve Wiggins]

A few tips tob...

1. Since your contractor didn't do a leak test the leak could be in the indoor section which you aren't replacing now...

2. You obviously don't believe in preventive maintenance or you would have trust in your tech by building a history with him...

3. Get a window unit for you MBR.

4. Say you are sorry to IRA. He is one of the best techs here and you just burnt up your bridge over troubled waters.

5. Rules are rules and NO you are not an exception!

[Irascible]

Originally posted by tobnpr
Your reply is condescending and I resent it. Lose your attitude.Perhaps. But your post was against forum rules - rules that are there for a mighty fine reason - and you knowingly broke them anyway. I resent that. You lose the disregard for forum rules and I'll lose the attitude.

In any event, despite the distractions you got the answer you needed. It may not be the one you want. But it's the one you should listen to. Steve and Pender have some good suggestions. Replacing an AC in a pinch and glibly upgrading the tonnage is asking for trouble.

[Dad]

Hey guys... Happy 4th.

[yvairguy]

Goodman is fine as long as it is installed properly. I would only replace with the same tonnage unless you replace both sections at the same time. If you added space to the home I would think about a mini split for that area of the house, unless it is part of the main living space, then upgrade the complete system.

[drk]

To many people or worried the duct will not handle the extra air flow! Their are not many out their that will not!!! Most people need to grow up!!!!

[Steve Wiggins]

Originally posted by drk
To many people or worried the duct will not handle the extra air flow! Their are not many out their that will not!!! Most people need to grow up!!!!

And others need to learn how to spell,

Are, Too, They're & There would be a good start.

[Irascible]

The funniest part about your post drk (and there are many levels to the comedy) is that if you do a word search for "duct" on this page you'll find that you're the first guy to even mention it.

[drk]

never said I could spell

[drk]

someone else reading to, too. two much in to things!!!

[billygoat22]

getting a unit in a pinch and asking after the fact is a recipe for trouble. Too late to ask once you're committed. And this scenario has come up on this site time and again.


I am planning on replacing the handler also-as you suggest. I'm trying to reconfigure a linen closet to get the handler inside the house instead of the attic.

I love you man! Give him a discount for that one

[drk]

This is true Irascible but most people here thing that is the biggest concern. Hope I spelled every thing Right!

[Irascible]

Well I'm not sure what you're getting at drk. If you want to talk about a duct's ability to handle static pressure then sure. Even flex can handle up to 10" W.C. long term without blowing up. Since most never see much more than one inch W.C. in the worst of residential cases then there's a lot of headroom in that regard.

But of course no one is talking about that when they suggest that ducts can't handle a certain amount of air. They're talking about the fact that the ducts may or may not be ideally sized to allow the necessary amount of airflow when matched with a certain blower, coil, outdoor unit, etc. Surely you know that. And if you don't then you perhaps should follow some of your own advice. :p

[yvairguy]

I think drk is right using the same line of thinking you should go with a 5 ton 18 seer condenser, it should match up well with the 20 year old 3 ton 6 seer coil you probably have in the house, 6 in to 18 mean it will cool for 3 times less than if it was a 6 seer but even better because it is a 5 ton which means you will have 2 extra tons of reserve cooling for when it's hot. You know the 13 seer really doesn't fall in here anywhere because 6, 8, 10, seer that you might have doesn't divide into 13 any which way you try.

If your worried that you existing duct can't handle the "extra air flow" to slow down the air flow just run your filter dirty or when you install a new one only remove half the plastic wrapper this will help reduce the air flow and extend the life of the filter. Once half the exposed half of the filter is dirty the air flow will be reduced, remove the other half of the plastic and re install it on the dirty side, if the dirty side is clogged no need to reinstall plastic. Using this method you should get about 2 years out of a standard glass filter.

[yvairguy]

Unless you change the indoor coil you will never see the benefits of a 13 seer condenser, the indoor coil is probably sitting at 6 or 8 seer. The industry only figured that your system would last around 10 to 15 years when it was manufactured so you've got your monies worth. With 20 years on the system do yourself a favor change it all out and be comfortable for another 10 to 20 years.

[Irascible]

While I appreciate sarcasm as much as anyone yv, yours had no substance. If any of it was for my benefit then please point out any factual errors on my part and I'll gladly recant. I don't think you can. Not everyone drinks the new equipment hustling Kool-Aid.

[yvairguy]

Irascible so you also go by the name drk? I don't see how you think I was talking about you, or may be the follow up post is the one you are referring to?

[Irascible]

LOL. Nope. Excuse the misunderstanding. We'll tango another time. :)

[ct2]

To many people or worried the duct will not handle the extra air flow! Their are not many out their that will not!!! Most people need to grow up!!!!


Steve , you beat me to it but I was thinking the same thing



to many people ARE worried the duct will not handle the extra air flow

There are not many out there that will not!

Most people need to grow up---

Dear mr FRAMING contractor

There is a good reason that to many people are worried the duct will not handle the air flow-----THERE ARE MANY THAT WILL NOT AND YOU ARE NOT GAINING A THING BY DOING SO!

You are a framing contractor---do a manual D

most people need to ask a question and listen to the answers these people gave you , they are not telling you how to pound nails or salt

[tobnpr]

Thanks for the good advice.
I cancelled the replacement this morning (the guy who didn't even do a leak test) and called the company I've dealt with in the past (which was too busy to come out yesterday). I've taken your advice to slow down (and do it right)- though it's tough to overcome the impulse to get cold as quickly as possible.

Thank you again- didn't mean to step on any toes.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by tobnpr
I've taken your advice to slow down (and do it right)- though it's tough to overcome the impulse to get cold as quickly as possible. An excellent move. Please come back and let us know what the second opinion says.

[Irascible]

Yes. Let us know. The old pros here are too senile to remember anything past this morning. And the young ones have an equally hard time due to the brain damage caused by the TV and the MTV. It'll be like starting over. ;)

[tobnpr]

Second tech came out this morning and found the compressor had grounded out. His explanation was that the system had lost all refrigerant, and lacking a low-pressure automatic shutoff (or something like that!)it fried. Guess I'll never know if it was the accumulator that leaked (as the first guy suspected but didn't check to be sure). He asked if I just wanted to "get by"- meaning he'd find me a used compressor and hook it up- on the "side", of course! I wonder how many jobs get lost to the contractor because his guys flip them like this ( but that's another subject I guess)...

I told him no, that I wanted to do it "right". He and his service manager both told me that they sell Goodman, but recommended I spend the extra dollars and go with Lennox. In their opinion, Goodman is a "lower-end" product and not something I should put into my own home I'm going to be spending the next fifteen years in. I will not discuss price (!), but they will be installing a 3-ton, 13 seer Lennox compressor tomorrow, with replacement of the air handler next week. Fortunately I have a linen closet directly below where the existing attic handler is mounted so we're going to put it there.

I do have one more question- I noticed that the ductwork in the attic (flex) has the outer plastic vapor barrier deteriorated to a point where it has fallen off most of the ductwork. There is an inner plastic vapor barrier still intact; does this need to be replaced?

Thanks again for helping me do the right thing...

[travisfl]

Originally posted by tobnpr
they will be installing a 3-ton, 13 seer Lennox compressor tomorrow, with replacement of the air handler next week. Fortunately I have a linen closet directly below where the existing attic handler is mounted so we're going to put it there.

I noticed that the ductwork in the attic (flex) has the outer plastic vapor barrier deteriorated to a point where it has fallen off most of the ductwork. There is an inner plastic vapor barrier still intact; does this need to be replaced?
How did they know you need a 3 ton system? Before you approve the installation they should do a heat loss calculation to insure that is the right size.

Your installation contract should include replacement of the lineset and any deteriorated ductwork, along with a leak check of all ductwork.

[Irascible]

Travis is right of course. But given the timing it likely won't happen. At least you're not upsizing for no apparent reason as seemed to be the case before.

Side work is indeed another topic. As far as I'm concerned that technician is a thief. I understand the reluctance to do so. But personally I'd inform his boss. I am my brother’s keeper. When I know a wrong is being committed I'm responsible to do something about it when I can. I've never had employees. So this isn't personal. It's principle.

BTW: How did we go from only having a leak to now having a grounded compressor? Sheesh. Contractors these days...

[drk]

they are replacing a three ton for a three ton

[travisfl]

Originally posted by drk
they are replacing a three ton for a three ton
http://www.proctoreng.com/articles/bigger.html

"In the Model Energy Communities Project, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) found that 53% of the air conditioners checked were a ton (12,000 Btu/h) or more oversized and a study by Pacific Northwest Laboratories found a third of the air conditioners to be a ton or more oversized."

[Steve Wiggins]

This oversizing claim is a big load of crap. Oversized for what? The house? Who are we to tell a homeowner how cool he/she can be? They are paying the bill right?

Now I agree a system can be oversized for the ductwork....

[penderway]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
Who are we to tell a homeowner how cool he/she can be?

Your right, it's ultimately the customers choice whether to oversize or not.

We should not just offer "cool" we should offer comfort, and comfort is cool and dry. And let's not ignore how comfortable it is to save a few bucks, each month and down the road.

We should educate homeowners so they can make an informed decision and not an ignorant one.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
This oversizing claim is a big load of crap.Hi Steve.

Got a citation for that statement?

[t527ed]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tobnpr
[B]Second tech came out this morning and found the compressor had grounded out.

they will be installing a 3-ton, 13 seer Lennox compressor tomorrow, with replacement of the air handler next week.


no way i would install a new unit on a system that shorted out a compressor then come back a week later to do air handler. any contaminants from old system start destroying new compressor from the start. if total system can't be done til next week, then come up with temp cooling or go on a vacation.

[marybear]

Hi tobnr,
I have been doing installs & service on systems in central FL for 13 years.This contractor is not doing you right.First,never have the CU bigger than the AHU.Second,it is poor pratice to match a new high efficiency unit with a older low efficiency unit.It would be wise to go ahead & get a new matching AHU at the same time.Due to your existing ductwork & it being a zoned system go with the same size as your present equipment.I would advise getting more bids.

[Freezeking2000]

Your ductwork needs to be replaced, i am ashamed the contractor did not take the time to look in the attic.

I would pass on this contractor and look for another!

The ductwork is driving up your electric bill big time!

[dash]

The customer should decide what indoor temperature they want,ie 75 versus 78°F,and then install the correct size to maintain that.Use Manual J/equivilent and you'll have the right size,assuming you use Man. S to selecct the system.


Sized larger than that is ,just the wrong thing to do.