Locating HVAC expert

[dx]

I am a remodeling contractor. I have a house with an original hvac system and a second hvac system added later when an addition was built. The homeowner complains about cold basement and hot top (2nd) floor and the opposite in the winter. He doesn't want an HVAC contractor to investigate, as he believes it was the guy who put in the second system that messed things up.
Is there an on-line or other place where I can locate an HVAC engineer or other "neutral" expert (i.e.one who doesn't have anything to sell) who can be retained to inspect the house and diagnose the problem? I am in the Detroit metro area. Thanks!

[Jultzya]

I know of a guy for about $500/hr...

You interested?

[dec]

we all have something to sell........that engineer is going to sell you his services to tell you what needs to be done. Once you pay for that it might be interesting to see how many things he will add in to cover his butt to make sure it solves the problem. Ok now that he has told you what all it will take , you will probably need blueprints to make sure that is exactly what he has designed. You probably want competative bids so then you take the prints to 3-4 reputable companies and get bids. Now is after all this is installed and does not work you go back to the installer , he informs you to go back to the engineer being he didnt design it . Possibly the engineer points out to you that on the bottom of the print it says that they are not totally responsable either. Have seen that before where it is stated the the installer should be aware that if there is a problem in the desihn that they should be aware of that and allow in the bid what ever it takes to make the system work right. Believe it or not I have actually seen that on mechanical prints that I was looking to bid.....nope I did not turn in a bid. Thought that would be a sucker bid. Oh well I sure you can find someone to evaluate this system if you are willing to pay to have it looked at but I would think you better inform the owner that someone will need to be willing to pay for the information to fix the system. Neutral expert or hvac enginers do not work for free they have something to sell too.....their services. Better realize that up front , somene has to pay for that knowledge

[dec]

just thinking about it ....are you the contractor that did the addition that doesnt seem to work? If not are you just being pulled into this in hopes that he can get free information on what it will take to fix it by hoping you will have access to someone that will give free information to you? Not trying to be a jerk but why does he have you envolved in it? Im sure he would not have that big a problem getting names of engeneering companies out of the phone book. Only thing is they charge for that information.

[Irishmist]

Important note: The contractor you are referring to has absolutely nothing to do with warm air rising and cold air dropping. There is not a multi-story home around that does not experience some temperature difference between the floors if for no other reason. I am curious as to how the second system contractor "messed things up." I am also confused as to why this individual isn't given an opportunity to 'correct' whatever 'problem' exists, real or perceived. Did you do the remodeling? If so, it doesn't sound like the hvac upgrade was part of your contract. Is that correct? I am just trying to get all the 'players' in the right position. Most everyone here will tell you to stay away from 'home inspectors' as they usually have no more or less expertise in HVAC than the average person. You say "I have a house..............the homeowner complains.........." Is this your house, a house you own, or one you had and sold?

[dec]

Kinda funny how when you read through more and more of these post , it gets a lot easier seeing through the questions and makes you realize that most of them never like the first answer wether it was answered by someone qualified or not. If you ask it enough , someone will give you the answer you want.

[dx]

Guys, I hope you read your blueprints better than you read my post. The word "retain" means that yes, the homeowner is willing to pay for an expert's analysis, opinion and advice. And no need for sour grapes either.
I was not involved in the house previously in any capacity. I will be tearing up the basement and redoing it so this is a good time to address the HVAC problem, which the owners have lived with for several years. In my non-expert opinion, there is a balance issue. The addition to the house is wide-open to the rest of the first floor (no doors or walls), yet is serviced by a separate HVAC. There may be any number of distribution, sun load, insulation or other factors. But I am not an expert.
I am not trying to solve the problem. I want a source of referrals for an astute engineer or HVAC expert to diagnose the situation. Take temperatures, do calculations and make recommendations. Don't jump the gun to blueprints, etc. Could be as simple as "we need to adjust dampers to get more air here and less there". And no, there aren't any HVAC engineers in the phone book. I have emailed the local ASHRAE chapter but no respose yet.

[beenthere]

Good luck in finding an engineer.(really)

Its always the fault of the last guy to work on the system.
It might be a balance problem.
Duct air leak problem.
Lack of system maintance problem.

Keep on googling.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by beenthere
Good luck in finding an engineer.(really)

Its always the fault of the last guy to work on the system.
It might be a balance problem.
Duct air leak problem.
Lack of system maintance problem.

Keep on googling.

PS:

There are a couple engineers on this forum, but they might not be anywhere close ot you.

Fill out your profile.

[Freezeking2000]

Most larger HVAC co. have the knowledge and experience to solve the problems you describe. You know what co. have a large install dept, thats who you want to have come out and look at it. Tell them you need a load calc and recomendations to solve an old problem prior to a remodel.

The engineering fee could be thousands which could be applied to new equipment and ductwork with a HVAC up-grade!

Get an HVAC co. out to help you the home owner out of this mess!

[dx]

Wow, there is quite a trend here. Everybody wants to talk me out of hiring an engineer! What is it with you guys? Professional envy? He's going to charge me too much, he's going to do this, he's going to do that...

Freezeking, I do have several very competent HVAC contractors, some quite large. None employ engineers. Based on experience, I fully concur with my customer. The simple truth is that a contractor does not have the analytical skills required for complex situations. Example: A relative bought a few years ago a newly built house, built by a very large national builder in a retirement community. HVAC performance was very poor in this house as well as several others, but perfectly adequate in the vast majority of the community. They didn't get anywhere with the builder, so they hired one HVAC contractor and then another and another. Each contractor sold them various goods and services, none of which helped. Finally they hired an engineer. The guy came with a bunch of instrumentation and did an analysis. His advice: it will never work properly, so crank up the thermostat and leave the bedroom window open in the winter. Or tear down the house. Then the engineer also found out why it was a badly designed system. Most of the houses have basements and the HVAC works fine. For the few houses built on slab, the builder didn't bother ($) to have the system redesigned, so they put in the identical system, buried in the slab.
So the money they spent on the 3 different HVAC contractors (with zero results) could have paid not only the engineer's fee, but also for about 10 years of extra heating bills from leaving the window open. Too bad that engineer retired and moved away, or he'd be on my job already.

[davidr]

You don't need a engineer,what you need is a contractor who actually test system performance.
I'm not talking about the equipment only either.
They will be able to uncover the problems & recommend a solution to it.

Check out http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com for HVAC contractors who have recieved this type of training.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by dx
Finally they hired an engineer.

His advice: it will never work properly, so crank up the thermostat and leave the bedroom window open in the winter. Or tear down the house.

So the money they spent on the 3 different HVAC contractors (with zero results) could have paid not only the engineer's fee, but also for about 10 years of extra heating bills from leaving the window open. Too bad that engineer retired and moved away, or he'd be on my job already.

LOL...

Sounds like they got the same result from both the contractors, and the engineer. :)

[dx]

No, beenthere, they didn't. You gotta pay attention! Stop watching the ballgame and reading the posts at the same time.
After the contractors left, the house was still too hot at one end and too cold at the other. After the engineer left it was all at the same temp (yes, with the window open a certain amount). Still is today. And the engineer cost a small fraction of any of the contractors. Get it now?

[beenthere]

Originally posted by dx
No, beenthere, they didn't. You gotta pay attention! After the engineer left it was all at the same temp (yes, with the window open a certain amount). Still is today. And the engineer cost a small fraction of any of the contractors. Get it now?

Got it the first time, SAME RESULT, neither could fix it.
The engineer was cheaper.
And they blow alot of heat out the window.

[dx]

No, beenthere, you never did get it. Customer comfortable = happy = success. Customer hot/cold = miserable = failure. Have a customer service consultant explain the concept to you. It will be worth the high fees they charge :)

Anyway, thanks all for the chat but I came here looking for real and specific info which apparently I can't get here. Over and out.

[beenthere]

Yes, many customers are happy wasting money.

Good luck, and Good bye.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by beenthere
Yes, many customers are happy wasting money.

Good luck, and Good bye.

I'll second that! :D

I guess some just think wasting money is normal! :(

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by dx
Finally they hired an engineer. The guy came with a bunch of instrumentation and did an analysis. His advice: it will never work properly

There is always a solution. It's whether the HO is willing to pay the dough in order to correct the issues or not!

[dec]

yep...pretty sure at the engineers answer to solve the problem , doubt he got paid anything. Still look at it if DX is looking in here for advice who to get ahold of, Its a want advice for free. As far as not reading his post right....no I think we all have read it right. I dont feel that any of the engineers, hvac companies, or specialists in his area would not be able to give him a few names to contact that could give him an answer or at least advice. Only way they wouldnt would be if it was like getting blood from a stone as far as some kind of comitment to pay for their time to look into it. Oh well he is gone now and got what he paid for ........do you think he decided to go pay someone to look at it ....ya right. Im betting he will be back asking more or coming in to coment again. Any bets ?

[dx]

Hey gang, I'm back with good news (good to me anyway). Turns out I was looking in all the wrong places, asking contractors. I called a few builders and architects and guess what? We have an engineer. A PE no less.
Yes, we are going to pay him. Go back to the very first post and read the word "retain". It means "hire for pay". Engineer wants $75/h and has 35 years experience. Sounds reasonable to me. Homeowner has no problem and committed to 5 hours initially. Homeowner is also paying me to work with the engineer and supervise a contractor afterwards if any work is necessary. Will let you know what happens next week.
Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum, ALL of my customers are willing to pay quite a bit for quality work. What cheeses them off is contractors doing crappy work. This guy is a surgeon. He says to me: how would my last HVAC contractor like it if he came to me and I took out his liver instead of appendix? Ouch!
Cheers to all

[Freezeking2000]

I have NEVER seen a residential system designed and installed with the help of an engineer, this is just stupid and has no warrent. The local contractors in my area(Connecticut) have all the tools to PROPERLY diagnose and install the correct system based on the customer demands.

You have not had a single problem solved with an engineer. All you need is a good load calc and the proper CFM delivered to each space to be heated and cooled, this isnt rocket science!

[dec]

Told you he would be back.......oh ya all solved , got and engineer. Seems like thats all we hear ......waaaaaaaaa I just dont know what to do but you guys are mean and we all hate you because you are scum and are plotting against us. No I dont think so, we just do the best we can and do not plan on making our living on line answering question. Not like I can go on line and get as much help as most do on here at things I would like to know. And then all of the sudden out of the dark he finds someone to solve the problem. Just what the homeowner needs someone running the job when they get an answer from the engineer. Yep you will watch over those bad bad hvac guys so they do it right. Like they need to be paying you for that lol. Ok what do I know but I hope you didnt make the mistake of hiring the wrong type of engineer.....you know the one driving the train instead of the one recomending installing a trane, but then that would be selling something and like you say you dont want anyone trying to sell something. Oh and by the way ...what are you selling?

[Twilly]

If the people are really smart they will hire the enigineer before they hire anyone.....most bulider use the cheapest hvac guy they can find so you get what you pay for.

[dx]

Hey, Freezeking and DEC: Get a life! Nobody asked you who is qualified or not qualified to do anything, man! I only asked if anyone could help me find an engineer. Period. You couldn't, but you jumped in anyway to vent your anger. Over, and over, and over. Who whizzed in your cereal? Go see a shrink or do yoga or something, and I promise I won't tell you to shop at Target instead of WalMart.

[beenthere]

Well I really hope it works out for you.

75 bucks an hour for a PE engineer? He doesn't think much of his worth, since we charge almost as much just to drive to the door.

But keep us updated, and give alot more of the specs of the house, systems. Besides the recommendations of the engineer.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by dx
I only asked if anyone could help me find an engineer. Period. You couldn't,

Did you miss this 'very first reply'???


Originally posted by jultzya
I know of a guy for about $500/hr...

You interested?


And I was going to tell you of someone that is in no way affiliated with me!
(no commision either) :(

[dx]

Follow-up:
Engineer came and looked at everything. Study in progress. Preliminary findings: 1. Poor design of original system. Not enough airflow to second floor due to insufficient duct sizes and insufficient number of supply registers. 2. Poor installation. Lots of air leaks and one return register connected to supply side trunk. 3. Poorly designed and installed supplemental system. Some of the original supply ducts disconnected from original system and connected (with duct tape!) to supplemental system. 4. Thermostats for both systems on first floor, none on second floor. 5. Booster fans installed in several ducts by yet another contractor in attempt to get more air upstairs. Poor installation resulted in high noise and no improvement. Later disconected by same contractor and left in place, which adds restriction.
Engineer now trying to figure out if it is possible to get more air to 2nd floor without tearing up all the walls and floors and redoing all the ducts.
I did talk to my favorite HVAC contractor. His take: you are doing the right thing. HVAC contractors make money selling and servicing systems, not doing drywall and patching ducts. He did say that he would have declined the job. Too much hassle and risk.
Stay tuned.

[amigadude]

Now, I'm curious.

Did all of the business people miss the real question here? If so, what a shame. To me, this sounds like a real business opportunity, well maybe not HIS job but similar ones.

Say I want someone to do an independent evaluation of my system(s), home, business, etc.. Who do I call? He asks for an "engineer", which upset some, but I think he is just looking for some indendent expert to prevent another ripoff. I'd probably call a good Home Inspector, with some engineering crap behind his name, as a starting point. Hopefully they would have some recommendations, or the local electric utility might.

Anyways, when seeking a Blower Door Test, a Manual J, Manual D, Duct Inspection, ..... who to call. Hmmm, pick up the Yellow pages, and there is little help there. Call a couple of HVAC Contractors and get something like - you don't need no stinking blower door test, and/or Manual J what's that? By the way, that is not a joke - actually happened.

My point is someone could make a good business / subbusiness advertising independent system reviews. Not to insult jultzya, but $500/hr residential might be a tad too much though.

[dx]

Yes, Amiga, absolutely. I wanted an expert, as the title of the thread states. The contractors were offended that the HO wanted somebody higher up on the food chain. Look,if I go to have blood drawn and 5 different nurses poke me in 20 places and screw up my veins, I don't look for another nurse. I go to a doctor.
The other important point is specific experience or specialization. I want somebody who designs, reviews and troubleshoots for a living. Your point about the business opportunity occurred to me after I contacted the local ASHRAE chapter. I only got a reply 5 days later to say they didn't have a referral service, or a list of local engineers, or anything like that. What a lost opportunity!

[madjack]

Look DX the problems your engineer found were not some fantastic engineering feat.I could have spotted most if not all of them.Just because you find out the are some bad HVAC companys out there(the same in your biz) does not mean they all are.I have worked for several outfits that had design engineers in house for retro-fits, new, residential and commercial work.You also said poor design of original system.The T-Stat location was a slam dunk.A lot of service techs know enough about installation to spot a poor or bad one.I get a call and the customer tells me his system worked fine till just the other day I have to know enough to see wheather it ever has.Also any recent work on it,in fact all the history helps me.Now calling an engineer in to redisign or design a fix was a good idea,but you mean to tell me the you could not get a company to do that?I put a RSW system on a boat or a walk-in freezer in a store or a furnace in a house it better work or I don't get paid.Sour grapes-do people still say that?I'm sure there are engineer consulting firms in the phone book of the nearest large town.Now about this kitchen I need remodeled.......

[dx]

Madjack, you make correct statements but draw the wrong conclusions. Yes, the engineer's findings were not rocket science, but getting it fixed without rebuilding the house might. Yes, you (and even I for that matter) could have spotted some of the problems but may not be qualified to solve the overall problem. Yes, a lot of techs know enough about installation to spot a poor one. But not qualified to redesign the system. After much discussion we found that the system never worked really well. The HO bought the house new and assumed it must be OK since it was new. It took him a while to realize it wasn't OK. And every time a contractor worked on it, it got worse. Yes, I do mean to tell you that the HO went through half a dozen contractors who took lots of money and each time it was the same or worse than before. Yes, he shouldn't have paid any of them, but he has money and is interested in getting it fixed, not suing contractors. It works like this: contractor comes in, tells the HO "you need xyz, I can do it for $xxx". Quote reads"do xyz", not "make house livable". Contractor does xyz, collects money, house is no better. No recourse. If you're in the business, you know the routine.
I've got to tell you, the HO is too nice of a guy. It was 92 degrees outside, the basement was 69, the ground floor 73 and the upstairs 83. With about R40 in the attic. Tstats were set to 73. My wife would have checked into the nearest hotel and sent the contractor the bill before sleeping in 83 degrees.
And last, no, there are no engineer consulting firms in the phone book of the nearest large town. You are absolutely wrong. I am in one of the top dozen metro areas (population-wise) and it was the first place I looked. Not a single one. There were some aerospace, computer, etc. but nothing close to building/HVAC engineers.
I don't remodel kitchens for strangers... my mother warned me against that...

[junkhound]

Interesting discussion and attitudes.
FWIW, 99% of HVAC installs am involved with have multiple engineers on the project, but then the systems are not called HVAC on ships and planes and spacecraft, they are called ECS, environmental control systems.
The point is that even a 'little bit' of 'rocket science' or simply looking at the basics applied to a home can go a long way.

[dpatty]

Sounds like the guy had the misfortune of having only calling the worst of contractors. It's unfortunate that you have to hire an above average company to design and install an average zone control system. The cheap home boom has created this problem and people like your customer have to live with it. The mechanicals are not a good area to be cutting costs but it seems thats the first place they look to do so. Oh well it keeps us service companies busy