preon verses freon

[heavy]

I'm planning to change out my cental air system I only have just air, I'm going to a air & heat pump plus a new furnace too. I'm going with the goodman brand. I was told i should go with preon not freon, can you tell me a lttle more about preon? and does it have to be a special unit or set up for preon? and what you think about goodman brand ?

Thanks

[airworx]

goodman great if upfront cost is a factor. but unit will not last more than 8 or 12 years at the most and will have twice the failures as a good system. also all those people to tell you goodman is a good system are the first to tell you about replacing it in a few years.

i would go puron, and only because most of the systems will be puron after jan.2006 anyway. ones not better than the other. puron is very expensive right now but 10 years from now youll probably see r22 as the expensive refrigerant.

i would go lennox or carrier.also if you are needing a 5 ton system i would not go better than 12 seer because most
5 tons will only get 12 seer even with systems matched for 15 seer.

[docholiday]

I think you mean Puron not preon and like Freon it is just a name. Puron is R-410A and only Carrier calls it Puron. Freon is Dupont's version of CFC refrigerants such as R-12 and R-22.

Now should you consider 410A? Thats up to you. Today it costs slightly more than R22 but that may change over the course of 10 Years. I suggest you go see http://www.410A.com to get the details. You need to make that decision on your own based on how you see the future playing out.

Some (like me) believe you will be paying a premium for R-22 by 2015 which is within service life of your unit. Others, as misguided as they are think there will be some new refrigerant invented that will replace R410A. (I think the higher pressures make them belive there has to be something better, I dont know).

You will also hear plenty good and plenty bad about brands. You will find if you surf this site and others that the installation is the most crucial in making a system good or bad. Yes there are better brands but if they are hacked in, they will be lame ducks. A goodman installed properly may be just fine for what you want, again if its hacked in you will end up crying foul. Goodman is not, usualy installed by the better installers, this is not to say good installers dont use it, it is a more often than not scenerio. The reason is it's lower price is used in conjunction with lesser quality installtions to win bids that are based soley on price. Yes, as I said there are good installers that use Goodman even participants of this site. I would however submit that if quality and comfort are paramount and the customer is looking for value in something other than the price, they might select another brand for that specific job.

Goodman has nearly if not the largest market share. We could argue over how they got that but frankly in comes down to cost. If I have a 10 year old brand X and the compressor fails out of warranty, the repair costs may be pretty steep. By design, the Goodman brand is priced slightly above that offering a new unit and all new warranties which is very enticing to those of us who live on a budget. Not many people budget for new HVAC or major repairs. The original brand took a black eye for failing and is priced higher this is why the Goodman (and Jantrol, Luxaire, Armstong, and other brands have flourished. You certainly cant blame the pricipals of these companies for considering increased sales by targeting in this way. Its actaully genious if you think about it. Make your money and sell the company and live like a king the rest of your days.

[Edited by docholiday on 07-03-2005 at 11:55 AM]

[wormy]

I think you may mean Puron.

Freon and Puron are actually brand names.
Sorta like Crisco is grease, but everybody wants
to call all cooking grease Crisco.

The most widely used REFRIGERANT for residential applications is R-22.
R-22 is in the long slow process of being Phased Out.
Meaning it is considered harmfull to the environment, so
R-22 is eventually going to be a footnote in air conditioning history. Sorta like R-12 in cars has been replaced by R-134a.
The Phase out process is going to take years, so there really is no concern as a homeowner to be left out in the cold with no refrigerant available if your system springs a leak.

The new refrigerant taking the place of R-22 is R-410a (http://www.410a.com/)

Which people refer to as Puron (http://www.carrierresidential.com/carrieralliance/puron.html)

Puron® is Carrier Corp’s brand name for R-410a
Suva® 410A is the DuPont brand for R-410A.
Genetron® AZ20 is Honeywell's R-410a

I guess its easier to remember Puron since it
so closely resembles Freon (which is DuPonts brand for R-22.)

[wormy]

Jeepers, I must be slow.....

when I started typing my reply, there were no replies up yet... then I submit and find two ahead of me hehe.

[docholiday]

Me too Airworx got to the point while you and I were pecking at our keyboards. :)

[tecman]

Just to add my 2 cents as well.

Goodman today is using good quality brand name components (compressors, valves, electronics, etc)in their systems. Properly installed they should last as long as any other brand name, assuming all things being equal (maintainance, etc). They actually have far more "generic" parts, which are not brand made, which makes spare availability better and cheaper. True they had a bad rep early, but they improved and fought to regain reputation. They have a good warranty and are some of the quieter units on the market today. Key as stated by others is a good install.

As for the refrigerant, I lean to the R22 still today. A new unit today will most likely not live as long as the ready availability of R22. In other words supply of R22 will be plentyful for many, many years. Production will continue till 2030 at reducing levels, and there will be a lot of recoverd R22 that will be sold as well. The big plus for R22 is that there is a vast majority of technicians who are well experienced on R22, while a much smaller number has some, if any R410a experience. This means for the next few years, the chance of a more experienced guy for service is higher.

In either case the quality of the installer and technician matters far more than the name or refrigerant type. Ask around fore recommendations, check with the BBB and even "interview" a few contractors before you decide.

paul

[beenthere]

I thought r22 is now set for early phase out, in 2020.

As for a better chance of getting an experienced tech for r22, there is just too many systems out there with 2 and more pounds over charge, for that reasoning to hold water. The guy might have 30 years experience, and still over charge the system.

To each his own.

[Irascible]

While it is assumed that R-22 will one day come at a premium over 410A. 410A comes at a premium now. 410A costs me three times as much as 22. But that really shouldn't affect your decision heavy. A properly installed system shouldn't leak so you shouldn't have to worry about having to pay for refrigerant down the road.

As far as brand goes, I'll echo what they've already said. Goodman is fine. It's the contractor that matters.

[dec]

Would not be afraid of going either way but I know r-22 's track record of how long the units will last....will just have to see with r410a's higher pressures. thats just my opinion

[heavy]

I want to know what brands that carry the puron 410a central air units other than carrier.

[beenthere]

York, Trane, Lennox, Rheem, etc,etc,etc.

They pretty much all have it now.

[lisag]

Wow! Quick search for the word "puron" and this thread was at the top and answered my question! Thanks!

Oh...the question was about the availability of freon based systems in the future. My local AC/Heat company that I have a maintenance contract with was telling me that I might want to consider changing out my system ASAP because Carrier is having some big $1000 off sale to replace freon systems with puron systems. The guy seemed to be saying that it would be difficult to find replacement parts/unit in the future, if something happened to my unit, but that sure doesn't seem to be the message I'm reading here.

Now I'm a little ticked off that he may be trying to hustle me! The guy was saying I'd have to make a decision soon, because this sale supposedly ends on July 26th....my system may be old, but shows no signs of trouble. I asked about the cost of an estimate and he said it was free, so I'm going to call to get one and see what the guy says and ask more questions about this supposed "parts/system availiability issue". Just might be time to get a new maintenance company!

As always...thanks to you professionals that take the time to answer all these questions for us homeowners! :)

[Edited by lisag on 07-04-2005 at 12:20 AM]

[Irascible]

You're contractor is trying to hustle you??? It can't be! :eek:

[heavy]

Well I want thank you Professionals for all the infor.have a Great ! day

[travisfl]

Originally posted by lisag
...the question was about the availability of freon based systems in the future.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/22phaseout.html

As the article notes, 'drop in' replacements for R-22 (example: R-407C) are expected to be widely available for use during the 30 year phase out period. Such replacements are already in widespread use in Europe and elsewhere.

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/sm/chemicals/genetron/ResedentiaACProd3_cat19194b8-fb39339c37-3e3e4447ab3472a0c2a5e5fdc1e6517d_HTM19194b8-fb39354b49-3e3e4447ab3472a0c2a5e5fdc1e6517d.htm

[lisag]

Originally posted by Irascible
You're contractor is trying to hustle you??? It can't be! :eek:

Actually, it's rather upsetting, because this company has bee nothing but honest with me over the past several years. You begin to wonder if you can trust anyone anymore. :( I'm hoping it's only an aberration of this one guy and that he was mistaken. I'll find out when the lead guy comes to do the free estimate.

[Mr HVAC41]

SMACK HIM!!!

there will always be a replacement part for your unit (at least 10 more years). all parts for a unit are pretty much universal save for a few parts. capacitors and contactors are universal. now there are almost always sales on units. look areound a little. call like 5 or more companies and have them out for an estimaite. make sure that they sell a variety of units and that they are very thorough! they better ask ???'s about hot cold spots, allergies, dryness, humidity or anything uncomfortable. they should also do a heat load calculation to give you the exact unit size for your house. follow him around and watch over his shoulder. make sure he knows you are there by asking lots of questions. he might not like it but he might get you a better prouduct if he knows you ve doneyour homework. as a service tech, i have met people, especially older folks, that i probably could have taken advantage of but thats wrong! they trust you, thats why. i want people to trust me cause i'm honest! just do your homework in case he tries anything!


TAKE YOUR TIME AND SHOP AROUND!

http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/11813_REDNECK_AC.jpg

[wormy]

Just skimming over Carrier and Trane's web sites
to see what kinda promotions they have going on and
found these....


http://www.residential.carrier.com/res/details/0,3041,CLI1_DIV109_ETI8671_MID4141,00.html?SMSESSI ON=NO

http://www.residential.carrier.com/res/details/0,,CLI1_DIV109_ETI8211,00.html?SMSESSION=NO

http://www.trane.com/Residential/News/Rebate.aspx
That one just went out... June 30, 2005


I try to keep up with promotions so I can pass it along to
homeowners with really old units. Especially if they are planning on replacing the unit 'in the near future'
I'd hate for someone to miss out on a promotion.
I'm bad about having this little voice in my head saying...
"This unit aint gonna make it through the summer."
Most of the time the voice is right... but then again...
there are a few units out there that have totally amazed me.
Anyways... even though I try, I get mixed up myself.
I just realized I was mixed up just then, I thought
Carrier was offering $1000 back for going to the Infinity
system. But now realize it was Trane when getting an XL16i or XL19i.
Arghhh... its hard to keep up sometimes.

Speaking of something hard to keep up with...
I think its been really hard for tech's to keep up with
the refrigerant changes lately.
Seems like everytime I turn around, the R22 phase out plan
has changed.
Up until a few months ago, I thought they said 2006.
Then thought I heard 2006 for the date they would stop
producing units with R22
Then thought either Carrier or Trane had set a date themselves for going to all 410 units
For some reason, I'm thinking Carrier has already stopped producing split system heat pumps with R22. But in just checking the web site... they still offer R22 heat pumps.
Maybe its just the ones we sell. http://www.residential.carrier.com/res/details/0,3041,CLI1_DIV109_ETI7960_MID3782,00.html?SMSESSI ON=NO
And thought I heard that Tranes new package unit design coming out in 2006 will be all 410.
I've heard 10 year timetables, 20 year timetables, and 30 year timetables for R22 phaseout.

I imagine I'm not the only one thats been mixed up on the phase out timing as you can see by the different responses
in this thread alone.

If I were you, and I was serious about looking into the rebate, I'd call and talk to someone in charge.
If you are not planning on replacing the unit, then at the very least...
Get an estimate, go ahead and learn as much as you can now
about what to look for and what to ask for (this web site has more info like that than you can shake a stick at),
get everything figured out now.
If the unit were to out when its 98 degree's outside,
you're not gonna want to take your time and figure out what you want at the last second....
Its sorta like shopping for a car.... it takes me a couple months of shopping before I find the one I like...
if I were to total out my car tomorrow.. then I'd be forced
to buy the first one that struck my fancy and I'd end up
regretting what I got.


If the company has been honest and done the work professionally in the past... then I'd give the tech a break and figure he got mixed up. We're not perfect all the time.... just most of the time :D

If you've been skepticle of the company over the years they've serviced your equipment... then by all means get
other estimates and find a good company now.

Like I said... its better to have a plan worked out now
for when you unit goes out then wait till the last minute
and be forced to get whatever somebody offers.

[docholiday]

Originally posted by beenthere
I thought r22 is now set for early phase out, in 2020.

As for a better chance of getting an experienced tech for r22, there is just too many systems out there with 2 and more pounds over charge, for that reasoning to hold water. The guy might have 30 years experience, and still over charge the system.

To each his own.



yes 2020 R-22 will no longer be produced, it should be noted that in 2015 only 10% of the amount that was manufactured in 1999 will be allowed.

Seems to me as Beenthere mentioned that experience with proper practice is the key, longevity by using rule of thumb has made a mess so far. A guy who knows how to convert to saturation temps and "see" what the refrigerant is doing in the system has much more to offer regardless of the refrigerant. Most of the commercial guys, especially in refrigerantion know this because they work with so many refrigerants, the hackers know 65 suction and 220 head and cant tell sh%# from applebutter.

[lisag]

Thanks for the advice, wormy. But, how would I determine if I have a "really old unit"? Here are some details on my heat pump system:

> Indoor Unit:
- Original unit in attic - installed August 1986.

> Outdoor Unit:
- Completely replaced June 1996
- Freon leak detected/fixed September 2002
- Motor replaced September 2003

> Maintenance:
- Had maintenance contracts/bi-yearly checks since 1996
- Units cleaned/maintained regularly
- No problems other than those listed above

So the indoor unit is coming up on it's 20th year and the outdoor unit is coming up on it's 10th year. During all these maintenance checks, no one has ever mentioned a potential problem happening in the near future/at all, so I'm wondering why suddenly I need to think about complete system replacement...other than this sale and the supposed "parts/system availability issues".

[Irascible]

You literally can't determine if it's really old because that's an entirely subjective term. One thing is for certain, twenty years is abominably ancient as far as the salesmen are concerned. And it's true that an average system isn't going to last much longer than that. But "average system" is also a funny term that can be played with. Some systems last 30 no sweat. If you have a heat pump then sure, the outdoor unit would be pretty old at 20. But in my experience the indoor units of heat pump systems readily last longer than that. The biggest reason to change them is to match the outdoor unit (IF we're talking heat pumps).

In my opinion if your system is working well then don't think about replacement yet unless you just want to. There are benefits that include miniscule to major energy savings, less noise, better appearance that sway some people.

And as far as your past experience with that company goes, this trade has and continues to go through sweeping changes in how the business side is run. Few larger companies have escaped the corruption. They're turning all the service techs into salesmen because they know that the service tech has the most credibility amongst all of an HVAC shop's employees. They do so to the detriment of the service tech’s technical training. The sad part is that it's psychology 101 that the best personality for a service tech is almost never the best personality for a salesman. The two are incompatible. There are a LOT of well paid service techs who are technical hacks but keep their positions precisely because they bring home the new equipment sales bacon.

The best way to fight that is to stick with an honest technician and always request him. A company can change and its employee roster can be very inconsistent. But the character of a good technician is unaffected by that.

Speaking of bacon: With respect to gentleman above, watch out for salesmen that focus too much on indoor air quality. They can’t do as much about it as they’d have you believe unless you’re willing to spend considerable dough AND implement behavioral changes.

[wormy]

'old unit' depends on tech experience.

I run across 20 yr old splits that still baffle me as to how they are managing to hold on (though I know that the effeciency is so low a new unit would be better on the light bill... even paying for itself)
Then I run across 10 yr old package units that have
rusted out heat exchangers and falling apart at the seams.

Each brand, style, year, model, etc has its very own track history.

After a while, a tech starts to see patterns in failures with various units. It gets to where you just about know what to look for before you even open the unit up.
i.e. Carrier GS Package unit. Dirty condenser coil causes extreme high pressures. Take it apart, clean the coil, charge the unit.

Trane Heat pump... Crankcase heater thats sometimes near impossible to replace

Trane BYC.... holes in heat exchanger in the dimples

York package.... dad blasted Johnston Controls ignition control module and the whole dang ignition/flame sense assembly.

The list goes on.

Generally what I see these days... 13 years is when I start seeing the more major repairs.

Bottom line...
If you are happy with your utility bills and happy with your comfort... just get quotes and prepare for if the unit fails in a major way.
Decide now what contractor, brand, effeciency, thermostat (VisionPro seems to get the most praise here... but I havent' seen one yet... I feel all left out), allergy problems (High effeciency filters and UV Lights), variable speed blowers, 2 stage heat/cool, and find out what duct mastic is :D And be sure to get an extended warranty.
Find out what is a better investment... i.e. Additional Attic insulation or higher effeciency equipment.
If you have a big house or multilevel house on one unit...
find out about zoning (Carrier Infinity)
Do you have humidity issues? Growth issues? Hair loss issues? Hmmmm.... guess we can't help with the hair...
unless you wouldnt' mind wearing a nice blue Hog Hair filter on your head.

[lisag]

Irasible - some very good points...the best tech is probably the worst salesman! What is it they say? Those who can, do...those who can't, sell! (or something like that!) ;)

I've made an appt for the free estimate...I've had a very good experience with this company since 1996, so it may just be the tech guy was trying too hard. The "head" tech will be coming out to do the estimate, so I'll hit him up for more info and details then. I just wasn't expecting to spend thousands of dollars on something like this...there goes the new kitchen appliances! :(

[docholiday]

Wormy,

the mfg's are all developing new equipment to add to thier lines. the majority of equipment sold today is 10-12 SEER by far. In fact nationwide it is about 90% 10-12 SEER stuff.

Research and devolopment is a pretty expensive venture. It is sometimes hard to justify developing new stuff that will go by the way side in only 4 years (which is only 3 to the mfg's). There is the potential for alot of wasted $ and no payback if they develop new products that use R-22. Some will because of the market but some will also make decisions on whether is is worth the money spent. Exsisitng products using R-22 and still meet minimum efficiency standards require no research so they will likley stay around.