SURVEY: Are there any Techs who truly like Tranes spiney fin condensor coils design ?

[hvacfella]

I dont like them .

[tinknocker service tech]

i like them easer to clean

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
i like them easer to clean


Yes, just carry plenty propane. :D

[hvacfella]

I still dont like them...and i never will.

[miami mike]

Ive never seen one leak.

I like that.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
i like them easer to clean


Yes, just carry plenty propane. :D

No, you use the propane to burn off all the crap, it really does work. :D

[mark beiser]

I like them, even thought it was a superior coil design before I started working for a Trane dealer.

[duc dowg]

whats wrong with them?

[Shophound]

What's to like: great heat transfer when coil is clean. I've also yet to find one with a leak. Not hard to clean (unless it is compacted with dried grass clippings, then it can be a b@tch).

What's not to like: coil must reside behind louvered cabinet. Accumulated dirt often goes unnoticed until skyrocketing head pressure nets a service call (that is granting that an exposed filthy plate fin coil would actually be noticed by the average user of the average split system condensing unit owner).

[Edited by shophound on 06-30-2005 at 09:57 PM]

[t527ed]

pain in the a$$ design that should have died with GE. tranes hot glue and styrofoam was a nice touch though.

[acman4hire]

I've seen 3 with leaks but serviced hundreds more without 'em. Work great unless you have hairy dogs.

[tlcartman]

i like them much better than double row coils.

[Senior Tech]

make great back scratchers...

[Swampfox]

Set one on the beach next to a plate fin, youll see which is the superior coil

[RoBoTeq]

I don't care for them when they do leak, and they do. The compression fitting repair kit is not what I call professional and Trane will not replacd a leaking coil under warranty.

I am also not too pleased with having to brush up against that thing when working inside of a Trane unit just to get to the compressor terminals.

That said, this coil has held up the best under adverse salt conditions in one area I have tested equipment that was saturated by salt water.

[mr big]

Most reliable coil ever-----NO CONTEST! Back in old GE days, dealers didn't even know what the coils were made of because they never had leaks. Carrier E-coil was a nigtmare--they had leaks, but not GE or Trane. Many people don't like the Spiny fin coil just because they have to compete against Trane.

[hvacfella]

'and Trane will not replacd a leaking coil under warranty.
'

ME: Will they at least reimburse you for materials used in trying to fix a leaking condensor thats under warranty ?

I dont like the spiney fin design because it traps more dirt than the Fred Astaire Dirt Devil Vaccuum Cleaner and they are difficult to thoroughly clean . AND as a bonus...since im only 'an occassional Trane purchaser' , my Trane Wholesaler thinks its justifiable charging me retail price on residential equipment plus Im a firm believer that Trane is just glorified GE equipment for which the consumer is duped into thinking is 'the best' ; Trane (like Carrier) bangs into the consumer thru a multi million dollar advertising budget that its equipment is Gods gift to the world let down on a shoestring from Heaven.

[mr big]

I have never known GE or Trane to ever not honor a warranty coil claim to a Trane dealer! Must be personal!

[hvacfella]

'I have never known GE or Trane to ever not honor a warranty coil claim to a Trane dealer!
'

ME: Can you define : 'a Trane Dealer' ? Does this differ from an occassional Trane purchaser who is a licensed/legitimate HVAC Dealer... and....will Trane stand behind thier product (under warranty) to such a Dealer ?

[mr big]

As far as I am concerned, a Trane dealer is an Hvac contractor that sells & promotes Trane products for at least 80% of his sales. This includes Trane truck ID kits, Trane uniforms, Trane Co_op advertising, participates in Trane promotions, Attends all Trane service & sales classes, etc. A trane dealer "sells' Trane. He is not one that only sells a Trane when a consumer ask for Trane. That is one that only has some access to Trane. Most Trane dealers are very loyal to the brand & sell very little other products since Trane offers such a vast line of equipment. I am sure you would find Trane more responsive to your needs if you sold mainly their equipment & identified with them in every way. Needless to say, the more equipment you buy from them, the more attention & perks you will receive. Trane is an excellent Hvac manufacturer, & is perceived by the buying public as the best there is. Almost everyone knows the slogan "ITS HARD TO STOP A TRANE". I realize much of that is from effective marketing, but thats just the way it is.

[RoBoTeq]

Trane warranties the use of the compression fitting repair kit for their coils, not for the coil replacement like other companies do when there is a leak within the fin pack area.

[Panama]

If AS/Trane's coils are so efficient, why are their super high efficiency condensing units just as big as everyone else's?

[hvacfella]

'I am sure you would find Trane more responsive to your needs if you sold mainly their equipment & identified with them in every way. Needless to say, the more equipment you buy from them, the more attention & perks you will receive.
'

ME: I sat down once with my local Trane Wholesaler and they wanted me to be a bonified 'Trane Dealer' as you mention in your post ; but after an hour of the wholesalers cavalier attitude and borderline condescending remarks .. i decided that i didnt want to identify with such , for, my ego just isnt that big. In addition, i resent paying retail price for any equipment regardless if i only buy 6 or 8 per year ; im a Contractor and i dont deserve to pay a 'consumer' price. Ive worked on virtually every brand out there since 1974 , and, Trane like Carrier is overhyped and alot of advertising dollars are loaded into each piece of equipment. ( I worked for a Carrier Wholesaler in the inside sales dept. and had access to thier cost and selling price) . Further, Trane like many other Manufacturers have put out products that are substandard such as Tranes 1980/90's 90 plus furnace heat exchanger failure recall program. With Goodmans new line of residential products, i see absolutely no difference in the quality of furnaces or a/c between the two ; but i could buy 2 Goodmans for every 1 Trane because of thier less than ethical pricing structure they have me on. No thanks...ill sell Trane or Carrier only when the consumer asks for it. And, ill feel good selling other brands knowing the people are getting more product for thier money .

[rasmussen6880]

Originally posted by tlcartman
i like them much better than double row coils. double rows suck!!!! I had to disasemble 5 r.t.u. with them to day and clean them. you can never see if thay are clean or not with out getting in to them.spine fin are easy to clean and for the most part easy to access depending on instalation location.

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by Panama
If AS/Trane's coils are so efficient, why are their super high efficiency condensing units just as big as everyone else's?

Because it is only one row deep rather than a split coil.
There are some exeptions where some of the rows are staggered though.

[trane]

Originally posted by hvacfella
'I am sure you would find Trane more responsive to your needs if you sold mainly their equipment & identified with them in every way. Needless to say, the more equipment you buy from them, the more attention & perks you will receive.
'

ME: I sat down once with my local Trane Wholesaler and they wanted me to be a bonified 'Trane Dealer' as you mention in your post ; but after an hour of the wholesalers cavalier attitude and borderline condescending remarks .. i decided that i didnt want to identify with such , for, my ego just isnt that big. In addition, i resent paying retail price for any equipment regardless if i only buy 6 or 8 per year ; im a Contractor and i dont deserve to pay a 'consumer' price. Ive worked on virtually every brand out there since 1974 , and, Trane like Carrier is overhyped and alot of advertising dollars are loaded into each piece of equipment. ( I worked for a Carrier Wholesaler in the inside sales dept. and had access to thier cost and selling price) . Further, Trane like many other Manufacturers have put out products that are substandard such as Tranes 1980/90's 90 plus furnace heat exchanger failure recall program. With Goodmans new line of residential products, i see absolutely no difference in the quality of furnaces or a/c between the two ; but i could buy 2 Goodmans for every 1 Trane because of thier less than ethical pricing structure they have me on. No thanks...ill sell Trane or Carrier only when the consumer asks for it. And, ill feel good selling other brands knowing the people are getting more product for thier money .

Why would they sell you a unit for the same cost as their local dealer that buys all Trane? You won't buy a Trane unit in my area for any price unless its from me and I think all brands should back the dedicated dealers 100%. Goodman will sell to who ever walks in the door and do you think thats a good policy? Most brands have had their share of problems with 90% furnaces including Amana HTM and the Lennox Pulse which are both top name brands.

[mr big]

Go for it! You can sell any brand you want & Trane can sell & support their products the way they want. Isn't it great to do what you want?

[hvacfella]

'Why would they sell you a unit for the same cost as their local dealer that buys all Trane? You won't buy a Trane unit in my area for any price unless its from me and I think all brands should back the dedicated dealers 100%. Goodman will sell to who ever walks in the door and do you think thats a good policy?
'

ME: I dont expect to pay the same price as a dedicated Trane Dealer, but, i dont expect to pay "RETAIL" price either being an hvac Contractor ; this pushes me further away from Trane and its hype. So long as the person who walks in the Wholesalers door is a Contractor, i have no problem with Goodman selling to anyone--with scroll compressors and a 10 yr. compressor/parts warranty ... it is by far more value for ones money than Trane and just as durable.

[chillbilly]

I think those spine-fin coils are as good a coil as anything else ever produced.
I'm not a big Trane fan but I'll give them their due.
I hate those doggone union type fittings at their compressor though :)

[nc hvacman]

"I hate those doggone union type fittings at their compressor though" Chillbilly- I agree- and have a thought- Wouldn't it be better to cut the line and remove the compressor then remove the "rotolocks" outside of the unit then reinstall outside to new compressor then sweat the comp. back in with swaged lines or some couplings. I think it would actually go about as fast as straining to break them lose. I may be getting weak but I have to work to get them to break lose even with penetrant oil and rapping the nut with a hammer. My tubing cutter will cut that line and my extensions make it where I stand up straight while undoing the bolts in the bottom. I already have the torch out anyways for the new dryer. Work smarter NOT harder! Oh I know you can buy the RotoLock kits as well but I don't think that would be necessary. Who knows what Trane wants for new ones??

[control_noob]

Originally posted by hvacfella
'Why would they sell you a unit for the same cost as their local dealer that buys all Trane? You won't buy a Trane unit in my area for any price unless its from me and I think all brands should back the dedicated dealers 100%. Goodman will sell to who ever walks in the door and do you think thats a good policy?
'

ME: I dont expect to pay the same price as a dedicated Trane Dealer, but, i dont expect to pay "RETAIL" price either being an hvac Contractor ; this pushes me further away from Trane and its hype. So long as the person who walks in the Wholesalers door is a Contractor, i have no problem with Goodman selling to anyone--with scroll compressors and a 10 yr. compressor/parts warranty ... it is by far more value for ones money than Trane and just as durable.

How many units do you buy a year Dave? 2 or 3? Doing HVAC as a hobby for friends and neighbors does not qualify you as a "dealer" nor does it carry the benifits of being one...

[hvacfella]

'How many units do you buy a year Dave? 2 or 3? Doing HVAC as a hobby for friends and neighbors does not qualify you as a "dealer" nor does it carry the benifits of being one...
'

ME: As i already mentioned, i buy about 6 or 8 Trane units per year. I spend about $30,000 per year with my Goodman residential equipment Wholesaler; id say that qualifies me as a 'non hobby' Dealer. If Trane didnt charge me retail price, id be more apt to sell more Trane. But since they have an all or nothing mentality to get even some sort of a 'wholesale price'., i wont push the Brand at all and in fact will show people why Goodman is just as good for far less money. And, ill throw in a 5 or 10 labor warranty thru Equigard and show them theyll still have money left over for a short vacation somewhere. The public is very duped on Trane and Carrier ..but, hype sells.

[mike grabowski]

i really like the trane spiney fin coil. i have found 3 in the last year to leak. the leaks appeared to be slits along the tube.

i like trane equipment also. some people say its hard to start a trane, but to be honest in the last 7 years i have only had 1 doa compressor.

the company i used to work for is a comfort specialist dealer. so i cut my teeth on trane equipment. i like it. if i ever started a company i would sell trane.

it seems everyone had problems with there 90% furnaces at some point. those were the new age years know most everyone makes pretty good stuff.

[wendel]

How does installing Trane equipment as a non-dealer affect the way that Trane will honor their warranty if you make a claim? Do you need to be an official dealer to gain all the Trane company warranty benefits?

[splus]

Trane just as good as goodman,I HOPE YOU GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAY.

[tbox8098]

how can you goodman is as good as Trane?

Let see- first the goodman compressor is nowhere the compressor that the ClimaTuff is.Second the goodman cabinet is made of a thinner guage metal than the trane. Does goodman offer the weatherguard top? No

third the goodman spinefin is nowhere the quality that the trane is.

But that being said I guess there are the same right???

[hvacfella]

'Trane just as good as goodman,I HOPE YOU GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAY
'

Reply: I certainly do ! If i cant make it on Sunday, then i opt for a Saturday night Service.

[hvacfella]

Originally posted by tbox8098
how can you goodman is as good as Trane?

Let see- first the goodman compressor is nowhere the compressor that the ClimaTuff is.Second the goodman cabinet is made of a thinner guage metal than the trane. Does goodman offer the weatherguard top? No

third the goodman spinefin is nowhere the quality that the trane is.

But that being said I guess there are the same right???

REPLY:

1. Please furnish the Scientific Testing results which proves the Climatuff Compressor is better than Goodmans (Copeland) Scroll Compressor. Thanks.

2. The thickness of a cabinet is worthless ; they are both galvanized and will outlive the internal components.

3. The 'weatherguard top' is worthless ; both tops will outlive the internal components.

4. Goodman doesnt make a spine fin. If they did, could you furnish the scientific test results which proves Tranes is better ? Goodman uses rifled tubing which greatly enhances heat transfer and thier coils/fins are super easy to clean thoroughly...unlike Tranes spineyfin .

5. No..they are not about the same. Goodman is at least equal in quality and for alot less money...which the homeowner likes and so do i.

6. Last i saw., Trane couldnt even use 2 pole Contactors in thier 'superior' residential a/c units.

[HVAC Pro]

I have no problems with the Spine fin coils even though I'm not predominately a Trane dealer. The thing I like about Spine fin is less (almost non-existent) factory braze connections. Over the years, I can recall never seeing a leaking Trane condenser coil. Ever.

Roto-locks have never posed a problem for me either. I take that back. On one occasion years ago on a system that had been slugging liquid for some time, causing the fittings to rust in place, I had a good fight getting them loose. A 14" pipe wrench, yes pipe wrench, and 4 pound maul later they finally broke free.

If selling 80% of one brand indicates your brand dedication, I would consider myself a Lennox dealer. And without ANY regrets I might add.

[airworx]

coils are ok. its having to take all those panels off to clean them. which is why you trane lovers never clean them.
or you just try spraying water up through those little holes. also i find as many trane evap coils leaking janitrols. and the coils are so tall if you have a leak in one youll have to remove the furnace to get it out.
but other than that just love em.

[tbox8098]

You are able to have better quality control when you are able to manufacture a part yourself rather than outsource it.

This being said the fact that Trane manufactures their own coil as well as their own compressor speaks well for them.

Does copeland have a comparison to the ( I think it was called ) the sludge test that Trane put on one of its compressors?

The weatherguard top will outlast the internal components because it will be protecting them from snow, ice, leaves, helicopter seeds, etc getting inside of the cabinet.

Why does Trane rank very well with consumer reports as fas as least number of problems and goodman has a higher rate or problems.

I would not be happy to sell anything from a company that will sell to anyone- including homeowners .

Goodman is the same as Trane I guess.

[mike grabowski]

like i said before i like trane.

i just bought a brand new house. it came with a gooman furnace and a/c. i am not impressed with the a/c at all. the a/c casing is alotlike trane, but different color and thinner metal. i can hear the a/c from across the street. i know they put in the wrong size condensor (cond = 3 ton, evap = 2.5) i have heard of oversizing the evap coil 1/2 a ton but not the condensor.

i will be changing this thing out in the next year. i can get a better price on a carrier cond but i like trane better.

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by tbox8098
Does copeland have a comparison to the ( I think it was called ) the sludge test that Trane put on one of its compressors?

Snowball finally died a couple of years ago. It ran for 20 years with just a condensor coil feeding liquid trough a cap tube straight back to the compressor though. This is after it was returned as a "bad compressor" under warranty. It started off as a lab joke, but ran for 20 years like that, lol.

[hvacfella]

Originally posted by tbox8098
You are able to have better quality control when you are able to manufacture a part yourself rather than outsource it.

This being said the fact that Trane manufactures their own coil as well as their own compressor speaks well for them.

Does copeland have a comparison to the ( I think it was called ) the sludge test that Trane put on one of its compressors?

The weatherguard top will outlast the internal components because it will be protecting them from snow, ice, leaves, helicopter seeds, etc getting inside of the cabinet.

Why does Trane rank very well with consumer reports as fas as least number of problems and goodman has a higher rate or problems.

I would not be happy to sell anything from a company that will sell to anyone- including homeowners .

Goodman is the same as Trane I guess.




'The weatherguard top will outlast the internal components because it will be protecting them from snow, ice, leaves, helicopter seeds, etc getting inside of the cabinet.
'

REPLY: The top doesnt have anything at all to do with protecting the compressor underneath . The compressor doesnt need 'protection' from the elements . In fact, id rather have a summer rain hit the compressor to help cool it. The top is for the condensor fan motor to hang on . Thats it. Tranes top is simply hype, as is the huge virtually empty box that sits below it.

Copeland is a Leader in compressors. Next time your in Ohio, visit the RandD dept -- there they have compressors running under all kinds of incredible conditions. So long as an a/c unit has a Copeland Scroll , a TENV condensor fan motor, and copper condensor coils (except for coastal regions)...then it is a 'good' unit. Im glad you like Trane Mike...but they can take a hike with thier retail pricing for occasional Trane users yet expecting Contractors to throff at the mouth to become a dedicated Trane Dealer.

[swat]

I like them. They are not bad to clean at all. I have a maint. guy who cleans these things faster than most here could clean a lennox carrier or what ever you prefer. You dont know the product so there for you are either scared of it or just biased against it. Open your minds and you will at least be able to form a better opinion.

[hvacdoctor]

Good for service companies since most consumers have no idea how to clean them. Could be a pain in the a ss
I hate them personally.

[patf]

Spine fin coils like all Trane equipment are JUNK. And they do leak at the point where they transition to copper.

[igwt777]

In my opinion Trane spine fin coil perform very well, the only down side of them is the cleaning procedure.

Take 20 screws off then the panels then..... ya know.

BTW, I have not seen that many leaking, we install many of those condensers at the beach houses and condos since we are located in the beautifull hot caribbean.

[hvacfella]

'And they do leak at the point where they transition to copper.
'

Reply: Same on Carrier units too.

[RoBoTeq]

There is no comparison between the Carrier spline fin coils and the Trane coils. Trane did a good job with that coil. The question was are there any techs who truly like them. There are things mentioned here that show why some of us don't like some aspects of that coil and why some of us do like other aspects of the coil.

If you take away the stupid brand bashing comments that have been made on this thread, it is quite informative.

[mark beiser]

I used to hate changing compressors in units with Spine Fin coils, the few times I have had to.
Then I learned a trick. Take the top, front and back panels off the unit, leaving the side panels and electrical box in place.
Cut the discharge and suction lines out where they are easy to get to.
Spread the side panels apart a little and carefully lay the condensor coil back so the compressor and all the internal piping are exposed.

It only takes a few extra minutes, and makes it easy to work at the rotolock fittings if they have rusted. it also gives you access to reinsulate the discharge and suction lines where they pass between the coil and the basepan of the unit.

[hvacfella]

'If you take away the stupid brand bashing comments that have been made on this thread, it is quite informative
'

ME: The 'stupid brand bashing comments' carry weight as far as why anti-Trane techs dont like Trane. If it were truly the 'best' brand out there, i wouldnt promote it for the one simple fact : I have to pay retail when im a contractor thats supposed to pay LESS THAN retail. If you love Trane, thats wonderful ; im not duped by the massive advertising agenda.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by tbox8098
how can you goodman is as good as Trane?

Let see- first the goodman compressor is nowhere the compressor that the ClimaTuff is.


Hmmmmmmmm. I found 50 tons worth of dead climatuffs this week...

No dead Copelands on the same neglected roof.

[RoBoTeq]

Yea, that comparison comment was not pitting Trane against Goodman but rather claiming that Trane is better then any other brand on the market because they make their own compressor.

[chillbilly]

A few things about Trane that I don't like.
1- Crankcase heater wiring, connection and well type probe heater core are cheap and will fail.
2- Service access to compressor terminals and cc htr are bad especially with the taller coils.
3- No low pressure protection for the compressor.
I had a tech justify the lack of LP protection by stating.."Why would you want to protect a 200$ compressor with a 400$ control!!??
Firstly, his pricing of parts is a bit off and a compressor, after it is replaced and all labor and other charges are tallied, cost a helluva' lot more than 200 bucks.

The coils are fine, but Trane IMO, is not a value for the price and rate of failure.

[martee99]

I have a small leak in the bottom coil of my condenser. Trane heat pump. Spiney fin coil. How difficult would it be to solder or braze? Thirteen year old unit. I'm looking to squeeze a couple more years out of it until the new Maytag/Nordyne Heat pump unit (23 Seer) are introduced to the market.

[kevinmac]

All I can say in my location SE seacoast, Transe do outlast the competiton. Others seem to rust out and the coils seem to leak due to electrolysis. I had another unit before buying my Trane system, and all my neighbors who had Trane installed 20 years ago they are still running and do not have any obvious corrosion. The other thing here on the SE seacoast the coils do not seem to get dirty like in other parts of the country.

Back some time ago the navy did an analysis on coil design and found that coils as used in the Trane outlasted the copper/aluminum style. So based on all the units in my area that seem to last the longest, it looks like Trane with their coils and spalsh shields along with poly bases and tops hold up better.
I looked at many brands and from what I found for my specific area Trane seemed to have the best results.

BTW after removing my electrical panel every cap contactor and motor control board is made in the US and not China or offshore. It says it right on the components.
So cheap components is not an issue.

So the moral of the story is use the correct units for the area you live in. Sometimes I think techs don't like certain products because of the margins involved and the limitations the manufacturers put on the field.

I am by no means making a statement that one is better then the other. There are compromises in every product we buy. Just relating as to what my research found.

[Airmechanical]

All I can say in my location SE seacoast, Transe do outlast the competiton. Others seem to rust out and the coils seem to leak due to electrolysis. I had another unit before buying my Trane system, and all my neighbors who had Trane installed 20 years ago they are still running and do not have any obvious corrosion. The other thing here on the SE seacoast the coils do not seem to get dirty like in other parts of the country.

Back some time ago the navy did an analysis on coil design and found that coils as used in the Trane outlasted the copper/aluminum style. So based on all the units in my area that seem to last the longest, it looks like Trane with their coils and spalsh shields along with poly bases and tops hold up better.
I looked at many brands and from what I found for my specific area Trane seemed to have the best results.

BTW after removing my electrical panel every cap contactor and motor control board is made in the US and not China or offshore. It says it right on the components.
So cheap components is not an issue.

So the moral of the story is use the correct units for the area you live in. Sometimes I think techs don't like certain products because of the margins involved and the limitations the manufacturers put on the field.

I am by no means making a statement that one is better then the other. There are compromises in every product we buy. Just relating as to what my research found.



i agree 100%



.

[The Penguin]

"I hate those doggone union type fittings at their compressor though" Chillbilly- I agree- and have a thought- Wouldn't it be better to cut the line and remove the compressor then remove the "rotolocks" outside of the unit then reinstall outside to new compressor then sweat the comp. back in with swaged lines or some couplings. I think it would actually go about as fast as straining to break them lose. I may be getting weak but I have to work to get them to break lose even with penetrant oil and rapping the nut with a hammer. My tubing cutter will cut that line and my extensions make it where I stand up straight while undoing the bolts in the bottom. I already have the torch out anyways for the new dryer. Work smarter NOT harder! Oh I know you can buy the RotoLock kits as well but I don't think that would be necessary. Who knows what Trane wants for new ones??


You guys need to try heating those roto lock fittings with your turbo torch
I gurranty you they will undo easy after you heat them up really good

I routinely use a 14" spud wrench ( pipe wrench without teeth) and I'm all set

GE spine fin man all those GE units were sturdy units - I just had one 7.5 ton condensor the comp went last week - original can from the late 70's - I'd say 30 yrs was a decent run