Need to replace A/C in Florida - 12 seer or 13 seer?

[jmillerc]

Hi all,

Homeowner here looking for a bit of advice. My service guy was out to repair my 1986 RUUD A/C unit yesterday - coil was frozen and leaky. He added some freon for now, but says if he doesn't replace the coil, the problem will happen again.

While he did quote me just a coil replacement, he recommended replacing the unit. The original coil is available, but is pricey since it was installed 19 years ago and not as common today. The difference from just replacing the coil to replacing the unit was only $500 and the reasoning he used seems to pass the common sense test. We have chosen to get a new unit. As we have a RUUD unit that has lasted near 20 years, we are okay with using a RUUD again. That's the background.

So I have a 3 ton unit of some lower SEER (maybe 9?) installed in 1986 that's going to go. His replacement strategy is a 3 ton 12 SEER RUUD unit. He did mention the new Florida law going into effect in 2006 requiring 13 SEER or better, but said that while it would save more money year to year, the cost of it would take longer to recuperate. Fair enough. So I did a bit of web surfing today (how I got here) and read up on SEER and the new law and am thinking maybe a 13 or 14 SEER unit might be the way to go.

So I am asking if you guys would share your opinion on taking the 12 SEER unit versus going further with a 13/14 SEER unit. What do you think?

Thanks in advance,

Miller

[dash]

We're in Florida too.Most people go 13 SEER or above ,in our area.The12 SEER and below ,is usually based on price and a desire to spend as little as posssible,today.

Look at features that provide comfort ,like you have never had ,when going to higher SEER.

Variable speed indoor fan with dehumidification control.Most people raise the indoor temperature 1 or2 degrees ,as the lower humidity ,in your home,makes the temperature you always ran it at,too cold.


Carriers has the tops ,oin the Infinity Control,along with two stage/speed cooling.

I'm sure the Ruud guy has something similar.Check out their website and then decide ,what's best for you.


Check out http://www.410a.com before you buy.

He's taking about replacing the indoor and outdoor unit,isn't he?

[jmillerc]

Yes, they are replacing both the outside and inside units.

I took your suggestion and have booked 2 additional companies to give us an estimate - one for Carrier and one for Amana. I reviewed the Carrier website and liked what I saw enough to quote it. While surfing I also noted the limited lifetime warranty on Amana's compressor so I figured have their rep do an estimate too. BBB suggest 3 separate written estimates anyway so here we go :P

Thanks for the reply,

Miller

[dash]

One thing to consider with that warranty is,what will be the labor and materials,shipping,refrigerant, etc. cost when it's 15 or more years old,and would it be worth it to invest that in an old system.Plus if if it's R22 refrigerant what is the cost ?

[miami mike]

Originally posted by jmillerc
Hi all,

Homeowner here looking for a bit of advice. My service guy was out to repair my 1986 RUUD A/C unit yesterday - coil was frozen and leaky. He added some freon for now, but says if he doesn't replace the coil, the problem will happen again.

While he did quote me just a coil replacement, he recommended replacing the unit. The original coil is available, but is pricey since it was installed 19 years ago and not as common today. The difference from just replacing the coil to replacing the unit was only $500 and the reasoning he used seems to pass the common sense test. We have chosen to get a new unit. As we have a RUUD unit that has lasted near 20 years, we are okay with using a RUUD again. That's the background.

So I have a 3 ton unit of some lower SEER (maybe 9?) installed in 1986 that's going to go. His replacement strategy is a 3 ton 12 SEER RUUD unit. He did mention the new Florida law going into effect in 2006 requiring 13 SEER or better, but said that while it would save more money year to year, the cost of it would take longer to recuperate. Fair enough. So I did a bit of web surfing today (how I got here) and read up on SEER and the new law and am thinking maybe a 13 or 14 SEER unit might be the way to go.

So I am asking if you guys would share your opinion on taking the 12 SEER unit versus going further with a 13/14 SEER unit. What do you think?

Thanks in advance,

Miller




Most homeowners find this link helpful when determining what SEER they should get.

http://www.trane.com/Residential/GettingStarted/EfficiencySavings.aspx


__________________.

[stevio]

Go with the 12 seer. Efficiency is not much different and you'll pay a preimium for the 13. Let's assume you save $5-10 a month going with a 13 seer. If the 13 seer is 2 grand more than the 12, it will take you somewhere between 10-20 years to recoup the initial cost assuming that your unit will last that long.

The 13 seer regulations going in effect in 2006 is an efficiency mandate from the gov't and has nothing to do with the quality of the products currently available.

[dash]

The cost differnce is no where near that much in Florida,and the saving for the poster are much more.

[jmillerc]

Thanks again all for your advice.

I already have a quote on a 12 seer system and am having that same company quote a 13 as well. I have two other contractors providing quotes later today and will be talking it over with my wife this weekend. If I have any other questions, I'll be back...

Miller

[dash]

Progress Energy still has rebates ,besure and check with your electric utility,sometimes contractors fail to mention this.

[stevio]

I've been pricing them out myself and have found almost a 2 grand difference between the a 12 and 13 Lennox. I've done the calculations for JEA and it comes to around $10 savings on the highest months.

[dash]

Originally posted by stevio
I've been pricing them out myself and have found almost a 2 grand difference between the a 12 and 13 Lennox. I've done the calculations for JEA and it comes to around $10 savings on the highest months.


What state/area are you in??

[jmillerc]

I have now gotten some additional quotes. Due to the FPL rebates in my area, the 14 seer Carrier actually cost $250 less than the 13.5 seer - go figure. And the total cost difference of the Rudd versus Carrier for the 14+ seer systems is approximately $30 - basically nothing when spending a few thousand.

So that leaves me in the position to make my decision less on "saving" money and more on contractor/brand. And reading these forums, most brands are all good..., if installed properly.

The last bit of info is the Ruud contractor is also my service contract person so there is a relationship there already. The money he charged for the recent repair to my coil he will credit to the cost of the new unit - don't know if that is a norm, but I certainly like it.

[HVAC/Stud]

Poor homeowner miss-informed again.

#1 There is no new law that mandates installing a 13 SEER. You can install a 10/12 SEER now and after Jan 06, if you can get one, the new law is” manufactures can not build anything less than 13 SEER after Jan 06”.

#2 The company that say's" you have to go with 13 SEER now because you will in Jan 06", should have there licenses pulled. (If they have one) Did you ask for current licenses? Is he NATE certified or his techs. Is he a professional or a hack?

#3 Go with the 12 SEER if you want to.


The important thing is get involved, check around, be informed, and ask for a Manual J load calculation, if he has the “deer in the head lights look” RUN.



STUD

[dash]

Actually Florida law will mandate 13 SEER ,based on install date ,not mfr. date in 2006.It won't be in January,probably June or July,2006.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by dash
Actually Florida law will mandate 13 SEERActually, it is a Federal DOE mandate that specifies 13 SEER as the minimum. But you knew that dash, right?

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2004/August/Day-17/i18533.htm

[dash]

Originally posted by travisfl

Originally posted by dash
Actually Florida law will mandate 13 SEERActually, it is a Federal DOE mandate that specifies 13 SEER as the minimum. But you knew that dash, right?

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2004/August/Day-17/i18533.htm

Yes ,but the feds allow units manufactured before 1/23/2005(close to that date,not sure),to be installed after that date.Proposed ,Florida law,will be on install date,regardless of date manufactured.

[travisfl]

I hadn't heard about that...and I thought I followed the 2005 legislative tomfoolery pretty carefully.

Is it a revision to the FBC (i.e. Energy Efficiency Code) or a stand-alone statute? Got a reference?

[dash]

Not at this time,but I'll try and get one.


Heres another one,you may not be aware of,though it may be deleted.

Building Code,not mechanical code,309.1.1 requires 26 gauge sheet metal for duct system ,in the garage.This was deleted from the mechanical codes,thanks to efforts of A/C associations,that most all here say "do nothing",but left in the building code.

[travisfl]

My copy of the 2004 FBC (effective October 1, 2005) reads:

"R309.1.1 Duct penetration. Ducts in the garage and ducts
penetrating the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling
from the garage shall be constructed of a minimum No. 26
gage (0.48 mm) sheet steel or other approved material and
shall have no openings into the garage."

Are you doing something different?

[dash]

Just saying that many are not aware,and it's likely to be dropped ,before implementation date.

[travisfl]

Okey doke.

You know, there is a good part of the FBC / FMC / FPC that I don't agree with, but this is one paragraph that makes sense to me. Oh well...

[stevio]

Dash,
I'm up in Jacksonville and have been pricing out units for the past three months trying to determine whether I need to change out my Payne 10 seer units as we have added 600 sq feet (300 each floor) to our house. I calculated from the past 12 month bills and could not justify spending more money on a 13 seer vs. a 12 seer. If I am wrong, please let me know because I'm all going with the most efficient unit possible.

Thanks! And Happy 4th.

Steve

[dash]

First I can only speak for our prices,but in Florida,I can't see why it would cost $2000.oo to go from 12 to 13SEER.

Regardless of theoretical savings ,based on SEER,which is not real world conditions,I think in Florida,it's worth the money to get a variable speed air handler.That's the main cost of getting to 13 SEER in many brands and sizes.


Variable speed with the proper controls ,like Thermidistat or Infinity,will allow a much lower humidity level during cooling.Most customer raise the temp. 2 or 3 degrees,as "it's not the heat it's the humidity"

A good variable speed with the right controls ,provides more comfort,what's comfort worth ,to you?

Many utilities have rebates that help offset the cost.



"going all with most effecient unit possible"Not sure what you mean,as much higher SEERs are available.

[stevio]

Dash,
One of the salesreps left his file folder here and never called or came over to pick it up. There is a $2200 difference between a 13 seer system they are selling and the 12 seer system (3 ton). There is a difference of the VS handler between them.
If I get a 10% savings per month (our biggest bill has been $220), I'm going to save somewhere between 12 and 22 per month so I'll average a yearly savings of $200. It will still take me 11 years to recoup the costs.

Heck, I'd be glad to hire you, pay for your travel and lodging expenses if I can get a better deal from you. Seriously.

Steve

[dash]

What model numbers and brands?


With Carrier ,making the 12 SEER outdoor unit ,into a 13 SEER you add a VS airhandler to the same oudoor unit.Or you can go with a more deluxe outdoor unit as well,which would make the cost a lot greater.

Most of our builders have gone to 13 SEER,that won't have happened at a price like that.

How many estimates did you get?