Carrier Infinity Outside Temperature Reading

[building in central pa]

What is needed to make the outside temp reading on Infinity stat. Does this serve any purpose in the control of the system or is it just for the convenience of knowing the outdoor temp?

[canquest]

Homeowner (and Carrier Infinity Owner) here. If nothing else, the outdoor temperature sensor enables you to control the inside humidity levels automatically. (Ideal indoor humidity level is a function of outdoor temperature). With an outdoor temperature sensor and an indoor humidifier, you can set the indoor humidity level once and it will adjust automatically to the outdoor temperature. Without it, you would need to manually and "constantly" adjust the indoor humidity based on the outdoor temperature - worst case is that in very cold weather, the windows will sweat and mould could form on the walls.

There might be other uses for the outdoor sensor, but that is what I use it for.

As far as "making it work", the installer just plugged it into the proper (labelled) pins on the board and attached the sensor to the outside of the house. And it worked.

[ricknc]

Infinity owner here too. In the standard setup, the outside temp is also used for the cooling lockout function. When the outside temperature drops to the lockout temp, the infinity control will not permit the AC to run. In our case, we have a dual fuel setup with heat pump and gas furnance. In this configuration, there is also a furnance lockout temp. When the outside temperature is above this setting, the furnance will not be permitted to run(i.e. only the heat pump will be used for heating).

[John Winn]

When they installed my Infinity, there was nothing in the setup to turn on the outside temp display, it was automatic. The Infinity condensor has the sensor built in. Now, your installer may not have followed instructions to move the sensor to the bottom of the floor pan so it reads real outdoor temp. I don't think ours did as it reads high when the unit is running..

Questions for Canquest and Ricknc. Infinity owner here too and am having some issues..Where are you located? I am in my first summer, brand new house. Does your Infinity have trouble satisfying the set temp during the heat of the day? Does your unit run constantly on high or does it run on high to satisfy, then run long on low speed? I think my contractor blew it. I don't think they are familiar with the Infinity and only installed it because my builder told them that was what I wanted(they are trane and york dealer)..I live in Central Texas (Bastrop, near Austin) and right now we are having outdoor daytime temps in the mid-high 90's. I have my Infinity control programmed to setback to 80 during the day and 76 at 4:30..Yesterday it read 78 when we got home at 5:00, running full blast and about 10:30 it finally dropped to 77, still running on high. Was still running on high when we went to bed. I know the system is designed to run nearly constantly during the heat but I was left to believe it should run mostly on low. The only time ours sees low speed is early in the morning. What does yours do?
Thanks so much.
John

[building in central pa]

Is it true that the sensor is already in the heat pump??? Or does another sensor have to be wired and placed somewhere outside to read outside temp? I'm having the heat pump system installed with electric heat.

[John Winn]

Don't know about the heat pump models but the AC models have it built in. Apparently the sensor is there for operational purposes but the Infinity Control uses it for users display..It should display automatically on the top part of your display..I would think, I know mine did..
John

[canquest]

Canquest here. As I live way north, we don't have a need for an air conditioner, and therefore none is installed. It appears from the other posts that if you have an outdoor (Carrier) unit, an outdoor temperature sensor may already be "built-in" and just needs to be plugged into the furnace board.

However in my case (no outdoor unit), the small outdoor temperature sensor that came with the infinity control was used. The installer fastened it to the exterior of the house (out of direct sunlight), connected it to a long lead wire that would reach back to the furnace, and plugged it into the appropriate spot on the furnace board.

[tpa-fl]

Originally posted by John Winn
I have my Infinity control programmed to setback to 80 during the day and 76 at 4:30..Yesterday it read 78 when we got home at 5:00, running full blast and about 10:30 it finally dropped to 77, still running on high. Was still running on high when we went to bed. I know the system is designed to run nearly constantly during the heat but I was left to believe it should run mostly on low. The only time ours sees low speed is early in the morning. What does yours do?
Thanks so much.
John

I'd call the installers back out on that one... I'm guessing they didn't do a load calculation, or they screwed up the install, as that sounds like an undersized system there, which is something that shouldn't happen with a 2 stage system.

[John Winn]

I'd call the installers back out on that one... I'm guessing they didn't do a load calculation, or they screwed up the install, as that sounds like an undersized system there, which is something that shouldn't happen with a 2 stage system. [/B]

Agreed..Situation is, the builder contracted these guys and I don't think they are factory trained. I think they are the builders "buddies" even though they are a big company in a few Texas cities..They don't even list Carrier as one of their brands. I have an appointment with a local Carrier factory authorized dealer who is gonna come and evaluate the system. I have had mixed comments on another post regarding the system, most feel it's too small and the installer "claimed" to have done a manual J. It's a brand new 2600+ sq foot house in central Texas with 10-18' ceilings and nearly 30 windows and house faces west..Four ton installed..
John

[tuccillo]

I have a Bryant Evolution system - same thing as Infinity. I just had the factory rep out today with the installer. The installer needs to replace the lineset - should have put in 7/8" vapor line but used 3/4" instead. Also, the charge was wrong. It has had trouble meeting the setpoint when it is hot ( 95F ). After some research, I noted that the capacity of the system ( 3 ton nominal ) is really 31K BTUs at the Manual J design point ( 95F/75F outdoor/indoor ). The Manual J load was 36K BTUs - I have been shorted 1/2 ton. We will reevaluate after the lineset is replace and charge adjusted. If we still cant maintain the installers design point of 75F then he will either have to put in a 4 ton condensor or we will have to consider legal options.

Typically is does run on low-speed 80% of the time - checked the runtime statistics on the user interface. Kicks into high-speed in the mid afternoon.


Originally posted by John Winn
When they installed my Infinity, there was nothing in the setup to turn on the outside temp display, it was automatic. The Infinity condensor has the sensor built in. Now, your installer may not have followed instructions to move the sensor to the bottom of the floor pan so it reads real outdoor temp. I don't think ours did as it reads high when the unit is running..

Questions for Canquest and Ricknc. Infinity owner here too and am having some issues..Where are you located? I am in my first summer, brand new house. Does your Infinity have trouble satisfying the set temp during the heat of the day? Does your unit run constantly on high or does it run on high to satisfy, then run long on low speed? I think my contractor blew it. I don't think they are familiar with the Infinity and only installed it because my builder told them that was what I wanted(they are trane and york dealer)..I live in Central Texas (Bastrop, near Austin) and right now we are having outdoor daytime temps in the mid-high 90's. I have my Infinity control programmed to setback to 80 during the day and 76 at 4:30..Yesterday it read 78 when we got home at 5:00, running full blast and about 10:30 it finally dropped to 77, still running on high. Was still running on high when we went to bed. I know the system is designed to run nearly constantly during the heat but I was left to believe it should run mostly on low. The only time ours sees low speed is early in the morning. What does yours do?
Thanks so much.
John

[John Winn]

Originally posted by tuccillo
I have a Bryant Evolution system - same thing as Infinity. I just had the factory rep out today with the installer. The installer needs to replace the lineset - should have put in 7/8" vapor line but used 3/4" instead. Also, the charge was wrong. It has had trouble meeting the setpoint when it is hot ( 95F ). After some research, I noted that the capacity of the system ( 3 ton nominal ) is really 31K BTUs at the Manual J design point ( 95F/75F outdoor/indoor ). The Manual J load was 36K BTUs - I have been shorted 1/2 ton. We will reevaluate after the lineset is replace and charge adjusted. If we still cant maintain the installers design point of 75F then he will either have to put in a 4 ton condensor or we will have to consider legal options.

Typically is does run on low-speed 80% of the time - checked the runtime statistics on the user interface. Kicks into high-speed in the mid afternoon.


Hey Tuccillo,
Wow..I am so worried about what the Carrier guy is gonna find out here..I have been on the phone with the distributor in Austin where the contractor is, and he discovered they bought the equipment in San Antonio and he had the SA rep call me, he had called the SA branch of the business and "apparently" they bought the stuff and sold it to the branch in Austin..Red flags went up all over the place during installation..Specially when I told them I wanted the Infinity Control, and they had no clue what it was!!!! When they finally did put that in, the guy didn't have any idea how to set it up so I had to do it for him (of course most of it is done automatically based on the equipment)
I do have a question, how are you seeing run times? When I go into the system setup, I go to furnace info and it shows cycles, ect but under AC, everything shows zeros..Very wierd..The system has been correctly identified by the control and shows no current faults.
I would love to see the manual J they claimed to have run on my house. The guy who is coming out Friday says he doesn't use MJ, not sure what he does, but whatever he does it must be good for him to be a certified Carrier dealer..From what I gather, if you use a certified dealer they are backed by Carrier 100%..He is gonna do a total evaluation of the installation for me..Hopefully something will come of this..I hope I don't have to take these guys to court but as much as I spent on this darn thing I don't want to get screwed on it either...The Friday guy was even recommended by the Carrier supply house and is listed on Carrier's website.
Thanks for the info!
John

[dallasbill]

Can I pull this back to discussing Infinity t-stats and outdoor temp sensing please?

In the case of an Infinity furnace, an Infinity t-stat and a Performance series (13 SEER) condensor outside, what sensors are where? And, this sensor wire runs from where to where??

I want to ensure ours is set up correctly when we go hot in our new home in August.

[John Winn]

Hi Bill,
Sorry it got sidetracked..
From what I read in the manual, if you have the infinity furnace but not the infinity condensor, then you will indeed need to add the seperate sensor. Now, when the installer put my infinity control in, the sensor was in the box so it must have been included (he didn't leave it with me, nor is it needed with the infinity condensor) so my guess is you will need to get that sensor, install it outside, run the wires into the area where the furnace is and connect it to the board. If you don't have the install book for your unit, you can search on Carrier's site and they have the manuals on file there..But I believe once you connect that, you will see that outdoor temp displayed at the top of the control display..
Hope this helps a bit...
John

[Edited by John Winn on 06-29-2005 at 03:46 PM]

[jrbenny]

I do have a question, how are you seeing run times? When I go into the system setup, I go to furnace info and it shows cycles, ect but under AC, everything shows zeros..Very wierd..The system has been correctly identified by the control and shows no current faults.


Software glitch. ODU doesn't report run times correctly to the UI. Does not affect system permformance or operation.

From your description, the unit is sized right on the money, or it's a bit short. With temps pushing 95 to 100, you shouldn't be able to recover for quite some time from 80 to 76. Systems are designed to maintain when at maximum conditions. The design temperature for Austin, TX is 96. The unit should shruggle to lower the temperature.

I'm not saying that you don't have problems, but I wouldn't get excited about the lack of pulldown in the late afternoon and evening.

[John Winn]

Should it be running constantly at high speed, even late into the night? Seems it never shuts off, and almost never runs at low speed(early morning only). I was told that the way the system is designed, it should use high speed to satisfy temp differences, then use low speed to maintain but this one never gets to that place. I know a large temp swing can cause troubles but I would think it should be able to handle a 4 degree swing, is this wrong thinking? I know my old house had no trouble satisfying larger temp swings, but I think it was oversized. I have to say this one is doing a chipper job at humidity control, I am just afraid with it running full steam all the time it's gonna eat my lunch. Another note, this is with two adults, no kids running in and out and what's gonna happen when we have a party?
Anyway thanks for letting me know about the display..I will know more when the Carrier guy comes on Friday..I just may be expecting too much from the system but I would hope it could at least give me 76 degrees..

John

[tuccillo]

In my opinion, these things run best when you dont touch the thermostat. Mine runs in low-speed 80% of the time nad has been averaging about 9 hours a day for the last 7 weeks - we live in southeast GA. If you bump the thermostat down a few degrees then that will force it into high-speed mode. Basicly, it should run in low-speed for long periods of time and pop into high-speed in the afternoon and then move back into low-speed in the evening. Mine draws about 1.3 KWs in low-speed so it cost about 1 dime an hour to run in low-speed - not too shabby. Our biggest problem is that it cant keep up in high speed when the temperature is in the mid 90's - we will deal with that shortly.


Originally posted by John Winn
Should it be running constantly at high speed, even late into the night? Seems it never shuts off, and almost never runs at low speed(early morning only). I was told that the way the system is designed, it should use high speed to satisfy temp differences, then use low speed to maintain but this one never gets to that place. I know a large temp swing can cause troubles but I would think it should be able to handle a 4 degree swing, is this wrong thinking? I know my old house had no trouble satisfying larger temp swings, but I think it was oversized. I have to say this one is doing a chipper job at humidity control, I am just afraid with it running full steam all the time it's gonna eat my lunch. Another note, this is with two adults, no kids running in and out and what's gonna happen when we have a party?
Anyway thanks for letting me know about the display..I will know more when the Carrier guy comes on Friday..I just may be expecting too much from the system but I would hope it could at least give me 76 degrees..

John

[John Winn]

Bill,
Look here, you should be able to find the manual for your furnace:
http://www.commercial.carrier.com/details/0,2806,CLI1_DIV41_ETI6245,00.html

click on the model, then when it pulls up your furnace click on documents and click techlit
John

[dash]

With infinity the low speed is about 50% of high speed capacity.

When the outdoor temp is in the mid to high 80's ,it's likely to run on high speed.

Setting it back 4°,it will run a lot to catch up.

Now every house will be a little different.Say you need all or close to all of a 4 ton units capacity at outdoor design temp.That system will run more in high then a 4 ton that was selected ,because a 3 ton was just a little too small to cover the load.

When it's stated that a typical two speed runs in low 70% of the time,that includes all days and hours of the day,not low 70% of the hot summer days.

Thinking that it runs in high to get to a temoerature and then low to maintain that same temp,is wrong,they shouldn't explain it like that as it won't happen on warmer days.

[dallasbill]

Thanks John... will do!

[John Winn]

Hey Bill, your welcome..Hope it helps..

Thanks Dash for your comments, and explaining a bit more of the protocol of operation of the Infinity..I have nothing to compare to other than the two speed Lennox Innovator HS21 I had at my old house..
I looked at your credentials on the link there..Very impressive..Wish you were here I would hire you to check these guys work. The guy coming Friday has the Carrier blue seal by his name on the Carrier site so hopefully he will be helpful.
Have another question regarding system design. If this entire system including duct work is engineered correctly, should all the rooms in my house be pretty much the same temp? All three bedrooms are 3-7 degrees different, even with it running full blast. Two of these rooms even have dedicated returns for a total of three. It's all one story, very well insulated and such. Noticed this even in winter. One thing we found strange was the location of the vents. They are all located in the ceiling in front of the windows and were blowing at the glass. I turned them around to blow toward the room and it seems to help the temp difference a bit in these rooms..Oh another thing this condensor is really loud. Carrier has all that hoopla of how quiet this unit is, and when it starts the compressor hums very loudly, specially right when it starts. The Lennox mentioned above was virtually silent in comparison..I wish I could find another infinity in my neighborhood to compare to..
Anyway thanks a million for all your help..
John

[dash]

Thanks for the kind words!

3 degrees difference ,room to room,at the time the equipment cycles off(due to solar loads warming some faster than others),is the standard,though I don't know where it's actually written or came from.

A few larger builders ,even have this in their contracts with us.Gets us the work often ,as we can design the ducts right.Really anyone could,it's not all that difficult.


Your Lennox was likely around 70% capacity on low speed,and as you said may have been oversized as well.

If I remember the lovers on your grilles were "slanted",if so I look at replacing with curved blades to direct the air along the ceiling.May not be needed,if rooms are comfortable(not at lot cooler close to the floor) ,it's just they way we do it,but with grilles on interior walls ,directing the flow to outside.

[Edited by dash on 06-29-2005 at 05:30 PM]

[John Winn]

Hi Dash..
I would buy 3 degrees when off but this is when running full speed. Not bad at night but during the day, specially the master BR is pretty warm. I don't have any vents shut at all...Everything in the house is wide open and I leave all the ceiling fans on low all the time now.
The vents, I have always thought they sorta cheap charlied me on those..These are those funky plastic ones that you pull the grill down to open or push up to close..I have been searching far and wide on the internet to see if any manufacture makes a four way in the sizes that I have but alas all I can find are 1,2 and 3 way..I have not seen any with curved fins, that sounds interesting, like it would give you a more even flow about the room..I am wanting to replace them with nicer ones..I don't like these..
Hey something else that strikes me as wierd, when I go outside in the mornings to water plants out there, there is water running out of the condensor bottom. There must be some line in there collecting moisture but I can't see inside..It's not the evap drain line as it's in the attic and piped directly to a bathroom drain..But I have never seen a condensor unit do this before. The larger line coming from the house to the unit has foam insulation on it but the tiny one with the filter doesn't but it doesn't seem to be collecting moisture. Looking inside thru the running fan it looks like the larger line coming from the compressor might be wet but it's hard to see..
Update on my programming..Someone had mentioned that my offsets were too high so I changed them..Now I have it set to 78 during the day, 76 at 4:30..Still can't do it..She ran on high till bed time last night..Now I will say, doing that change did make the house a bit more comfortable, but it still couldn't satisfy the two degree drop all afternoon..
Thanks!
John
(sorry Bill, off topic again)

[dash]

3 degrees is the maximum,7 degrees ,as you mentioned is not acceptable,IMHO.

Your system may well be undersized slightly,only the load calculation wil tell.Since it's required in Texas ,as in Florida,the building dept.,should be able to provide a copy.

Your 4 ton TDB at 350cfms per ton,95° OD and 75° Indoor,is only 43330 btus total and 32070 sensible btus.Same criteria ,with 80°indoors(ARI standard),is 47110 total btus,so they could have used that data.

I mention this as they may have a load that's less than 48000 btus total,but failed to look at the "detailed cooling capacity",since they don't usually sell Carrier.


If it's undersized,look at any options ,to reduce the load,before going to five tons.Increasing attic insulation,adding a radiant barrier,window tinting etc..

These would be at their expense of course.The reason I suggest it,is that it would save you operating cost ,by keeping the 4 ton .

[John Winn]

Hi Dash..
I would buy 3 degrees when off but this is when running full speed. Not bad at night but during the day, specially the master BR is pretty warm. I don't have any vents shut at all...Everything in the house is wide open and I leave all the ceiling fans on low all the time now.
The vents, I have always thought they sorta cheap charlied me on those..These are those funky plastic ones that you pull the grill down to open or push up to close..I have been searching far and wide on the internet to see if any manufacture makes a four way in the sizes that I have but alas all I can find are 1,2 and 3 way..I have not seen any with curved fins, that sounds interesting, like it would give you a more even flow about the room..I am wanting to replace them with nicer ones..I don't like these..
Hey something else that strikes me as wierd, when I go outside in the mornings to water plants out there, there is water running out of the condensor bottom. There must be some line in there collecting moisture but I can't see inside..It's not the evap drain line as it's in the attic and piped directly to a bathroom drain..But I have never seen a condensor unit do this before. The larger line coming from the house to the unit has foam insulation on it but the tiny one with the filter doesn't but it doesn't seem to be collecting moisture. Looking inside thru the running fan it looks like the larger line coming from the compressor might be wet but it's hard to see..
Update on my programming..Someone had mentioned that my offsets were too high so I changed them..Now I have it set to 78 during the day, 76 at 4:30..Still can't do it..She ran on high till bed time last night..Now I will say, doing that change did make the house a bit more comfortable, but it still couldn't satisfy the two degree drop all afternoon..
Thanks!
John
(sorry Bill, off topic again)

[dash]

Leaving the ceiling fans running is not the best thing to do.They cool people,not the home,use them as you do lights,on when you are there,off when you leave.Saves a little electricity.

No harm in leaving them on,just no benefit.

[wyounger]

Bill,

The outdoor temperature sensor is only factory integrated into the outdoor unit itself on the the Infinity two speed units. With your setup (same as I've got at home) the temperature sensor connects to the furnace board, and the sensor itself can go just about anywhere it wants so long as it's outside and in the shade. They are frequently, but not always, run outside alongside the low voltage wire that goes to the outdoor unit. Mine is basically just tied off on the high voltage conduit halfway between the wall of the house and the outdoor unit.

[dallasbill]

Thanks wyounger... now I see! I was thinking that somehow it ran to the t-stat. But now I understand -- the t-stat derives the outside temp via the sensor feeding the furnace board!

[John Winn]

Hey Bill!
That's why I posted the link to the manual. It will show you right where it connects :-)
good luck!
John

[ricknc]

Hi John,

Sorry for the delay...busy. You asked about run times. Background, approx 2000 sf home(two story) with infinity zoned system(two zones one for upstairs, one for downstairs). The system is dual fuel with 58MVP060 furnace and 38YDB036(i.e. 3 ton) heat pump. Location is central NC. The system was installed summer 04. For the first 3 months, infinity zone control was not available so system ran with standard t.stat that did not control 2 stage unit. Actually, for the 1st month the way it was wired...it was obvious that it was running in low only. Installer returned and set it up to run in high only. I only mention that because I think the run time data is kept in the unit control board and not the infinity control...so the run times I have for cooling were influenced by that setup.

Heat Pump-

Low Heat: 726
High Heat: 240
Low Cool: 1088
High Cool: 1151

Furnace-
Low Heat: 601
High Heat: 347

Presently with the daytime temps around 90, the unit seems to spend most of the time in high cool...but earlier in the summer it spent more time in low cool. So as dash noted, the times have to be taken as a whole over the entire cooling/heating season.