Carrier 48ss

[dave-0]

First off, I am NOT a HVAC tech nor do I claim to be. I'm not even a DIYer when it comes to HVAC. I am a donut maker by trade (photographer by passion), but I AM looking for some straight answers. I know I'll prolly be kicked out of here, but I would like some help from you hard working HVAC professionals.
I have a Carrier 48 ss on top of my (donut) shop that was manufactured 3-97 and installed 7-97. In '98 it worked well. Not perfect or even great, but well. From spring of '99 until present I've had to call the same company out, sometimes several times, to get it to work again, only to last the season and that's it. Every time it's "I can't find anything wrong with it and that will be $$$ dollars." I'm on my third compressor now which was installed less than two months ago and it's already dying. I. E. the Tstats set on 72 and it won't cool below 80, and is prgressively getting worse. I guess they won't stand behind thier work or product considering they keep charging me, but is this right? Is it possible to have gotten a lemon of an a/c unit? Have any of you had this kind of bad experience with this brand/model? Was there a recall on this unit or something per chance? I've also contacted Carrier about this problem only to be given the run around. Is this model one of those cheap replaceable ones that rattles it self apart after (X) years? As I stated earlier, I'm not touching it, I'm just looking for some answers. I do thank you for any help you could give me. It's greatly appreciated.
Dave-0

[NormChris]

The majority (nearly all) compressor failures are caused by unresolved system problems. When a compressor is replaced the replacement is sure to fail unless the cause of the initial failure is determined and rectified.

I am a factory instructor and one of the classes I teach throughout North America is a class on why compressors fail and how to prevent repeat failures.

The only excuse for a repeat compressor failure is ignorance or lazyness on the part of the technician who replaced your failed compressor.

For an interesting read on this very topic go here;

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=26292

and read an article I wrote that applies to your particular concerns.

Norm

[john f1]

have you been loyal to the same company throughout all this mess if so your a great customer and deserve to be treated the same by the contracter.there may be a acual problem with that unit from the factory you said its a 48 series tell me the tonnage please.i will see if i can help.
if you can give me the model # and serial # that would be great if not the tonnage will due

[NormChris]

To put it in laymans terms for you nearly every compressor failure is due to a refrigerant flow problem or electrical problem external to the compressor.

The key is to be able to analyze the system operation and pin down the exact cause or combination of causes of the failure and then rectify the cause or causes so the replacement does not fail.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by john f1
have you been loyal to the same company throughout all this mess if so your a great customer and deserve to be treated the same by the contracter.there may be a acual problem with that unit from the factory you said its a 48 series tell me the tonnage please.i will see if i can help.
if you can give me the model # and serial # that would be great if not the tonnage will due


It is very, very, very rare that repeat compressor failures are due to a factory design problem. In fact, every problem job I have gone on to investigate and rectify a repeat failure condition turned out to be a system problem that I was able to rectify. No further compressor failures occurred after that.

[dave-0]

Man o Man...thanks for all the replies!
JohnF1...Model # 48ss-060120331 ; Serial 1397G10065. I do believe it's a 5 ton. I only have 1200 S.F. but I do have a lot of heat producing appliances. And yes, I am a loyal customer, doesn't matter the price...until I'm done wrong. Even before I had this Carrier unit put up top, I had been using them for my old way under powered system.

NormChris, thank you for the article and info on compressor failure. The original compressor lasted until April '04. Had the second one put in last year, then three days out of 'warranty' it took a nose dive. I feel this new one is going the same route on much quicker time frame. I don't think the A/C has shut off in 3 days. I guess you could say I'm getting hot under the collar here. My home A/C went out (after 23 years) earlier this week! Go figure.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by dave-0
Man o Man...thanks for all the replies!
JohnF1...Model # 48ss-060120331 ; Serial 1397G10065. I do believe it's a 5 ton. I only have 1200 S.F. but I do have a lot of heat producing appliances. And yes, I am a loyal customer, doesn't matter the price...until I'm done wrong. Even before I had this Carrier unit put up top, I had been using them for my old way under powered system.

NormChris, thank you for the article and info on compressor failure. The original compressor lasted until April '04. Had the second one put in last year, then three days out of 'warranty' it took a nose dive. I feel this new one is going the same route on much quicker time frame. I don't think the A/C has shut off in 3 days. I guess you could say I'm getting hot under the collar here. My home A/C went out (after 23 years) earlier this week! Go figure.

Wow, talk about customer loyalty. There is not a single good reason for you to loose compressors this often if you have qualified and educated people performing your work.

Compressors are tough. However, they can't survive unresolved system problems. And, you have them.

[ultratec]

I agree Norm, some compressors due just go because it was there time, obviously not in this case. W/ not having this machine infront of us, not one of us can tell you why they are craping out, it kills my way they will keep installing new ones without finding the problem. The returned compressor can be checked out for reason of failure since "someone" doesnt know why.

[john f1]

Norm theres defects built all the time in commercial equipment and there a fix for it but sometimes it does not get done.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by ultratec
I agree Norm, some compressors due just go because it was there time, obviously not in this case. W/ not having this machine infront of us, not one of us can tell you why they are craping out, it kills my way they will keep installing new ones without finding the problem. The returned compressor can be checked out for reason of failure since "someone" doesnt know why.


Compressors never go out just because it is there time, whatever that means. There is always a reason.

A refrigerant floodback
Refrigerant slugging
Flooded starts
Loss of lubrication
Loss of oil (not the same)
Over voltage or under voltage
Voltage or current imbalance
Single phasing

and the list goes on...

all of these are problems NOT caused by the compressor but by the system the compressor is attached to.

Norm

[dave-0]

Jeez, thanks for all the help every one. I should print this out and send it to the owner of the company, along with my complaints too. Maybe a certified letter would get his attention? Anyways, I'll catch up on this Sunday. I gotta get some sleep and I have a wedding to shoot tomorrow too. I can't thank you enough for all the info! I'd happily buy your breakfast(s) if you guys were around the D/FW area! I can't tell you what a load off my mind this is.
Hmmm...should I hire a few different companies to get thier opinions to send to my original contractor?

[john f1]

dave its not the one i was thinking of.
your system is probably oil logged from all the compressor changes your going to have to find a good service rep in your area to look at it and give him the history of it.

[ultratec]

Norm, are you telling me that a mechanical motor, compressor that has friction and generates heat cant go bad because of time and age? A compressor cant go bad because an oil pump failed or the rings wore out, I can name 50 reasons for a failure. Nothing is forever and it is not ALWAYS because something else in the system caused it. Most of the time it is yes, but not all.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by ultratec
Norm, are you telling me that a mechanical motor, compressor that has friction and generates heat cant go bad because of time and age? A compressor cant go bad because an oil pump failed or the rings wore out, I can name 50 reasons for a failure. Nothing is forever and it is not ALWAYS because something else in the system caused it. Most of the time it is yes, but not all.


I never said any of those things! He is having multiple failures on new compressors. That should tell you something.

Also, there are reasons why compressors wear quickly such as flooded starts, liquid floodback which reduces lubrication and overheating due to high suction temperatures. Each of these are system problems not compressor problems.

I suggest you attend one of my York seminars or a COSS seminar by Copeland. Keep an open mind and be ready to learn.

[ultratec]

Norm Please, Your are obviously a very well educated man, and reading from this forum( that I love) and your posts, you have my respect. You listed common problems to why MOST compressors fail, and I agree, never said I didnt, I can list just as many failures that would have nothing to do w/ the system they are in. If you read my first post, I said obviously not in this case. Multiple compressor failures is a red flag, infact, more then one raises a flag. I am no expert and will never be, my mind is an open book. I learn every day. I can list many reasons why a scroll or hermetic or a semi can fail. Many many many and many failures are due to exactly what you said, I dont need to say what you said, but again, not all are, as you know. I would love to attend one of your seminars, no question, I am sure I would learn alot, just as I am sure you learn from this forum as well.

[german 8'er]

I was trying to find some info on 48ss to confirm my belief before inputting but...isn't a 48ss the doubled up horseshoe type condenser coil with the condenser air pushed through the coil rather than drawn through? If so, I would believe that it may be a high head issue. Most Carriers I see in the field are sold as low budget units and do not have high or low pressure safeties. As the coil (2 sandwiched together?) gets dirtier, efficiency goes down and head pressures go up. Eventuallly head pressure becomes so great, the compressor starts to short cycle on internal overload. Sounds familiar to your complaint...

[dapper]

Yes german 8'er, you are correct. The Start-up and Service manual http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/48ss,sx-12si.pdf contains a one sentence referrence to the double coil on page 47. Although I haven't serviced one of these in many years, I was never aware of the double coil. Thanks for the heads up!
It was also at this site that I learned of the Trane double coil as well. That little tidbit of info saved me a lot of headaches too.

[dave-0]

Thank you every one for your input. You've been very helpful!

[control_noob]

Originally posted by NormChris

I suggest you attend one of my York seminars or a COSS seminar by Copeland. Keep an open mind and be ready to learn.

[/B]

Norm, where can we find schedules on your classes?

[NormChris]

Originally posted by control_noob

Originally posted by NormChris

I suggest you attend one of my York seminars or a COSS seminar by Copeland. Keep an open mind and be ready to learn.



Norm, where can we find schedules on your classes? [/B]


http://www.yorkupg.com/dealers_distributors/TechnicalTraining.asp

[themechanic]

It simple, get another contractor.

[richvito]

I would get a second opinion from another Contractor.When these Compressers are being replaced what is this guy telling you caused the Failure?????

[seaboard]

One other thing; whenever you're dealing with a restaurant environment the exhaust/makeup air affect on the building envelope must be examined. Good luck.