Carrier Package units ( 40 Tons )

[philip]

Currently in hvac work since 1994. Have 6 buildings joined togther and only 4 of them are air conditioned. In buildings 1,2,&3 only Building 2 has AC (2 40 ton units). Would you agree this is why they run an 8 hour shift with out shutting off? For 2nd and last question. One of these units has had blower problems and vibrates badly. Unit is a Carrier Model # 48DF-044-640PA Serial # 1492F93835. Have these units been known for problem units?

[ultratec]

That is an impossible question to answer. Are the machines working correctly? Whats the square footage of the area the equipment is serving? Whats kind of heat load do they have? Why is one of the machines vibrating? You dont have enough info. I would do a load on the building, make sure the machines are operating as they should and take it from there.

[sonc]

You're in hvac work?...scary

[dandyme]

Originally posted by sonc
You're in hvac work?...scary




LOL

[philip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sonc
[I see sonic as a member not a professional member, and you work in hvac? Scary!!!

[philip]

Originally posted by dandyme

Originally posted by sonc
You're in hvac work?...scary




LOL

[john dalton]

Good Morning Gentlemen,

First and foremost, Philip, let me take this time to welcome you to this forum of your peers, and colleagues in the HVAC/R field. Next, unfortunately, let me apologize for my colleague’s previous posts, hardly a professional thing to do to a new member of this forum.

And to Sonc and Dandyme, have you arrived in your knowledge of our profession? Are you perfect in your execution of our trade? Or in reality, are you ignorant, just like the rest of us here, who come to this place for additional knowledge in our chosen field of endeavor?

And if you think you’ve arrived, please let me know so I can gleam from your vast knowledge and ask several extremely complexed and intricate questions that I’ve been wanting to know for some time now.

If not, then please afford our new member Philip the same curiouses we all would like extended to us when we post our inquisitive questions.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Philip,

With the previous said, lets now look at your original posted questions:

Question 1:

If I’m to understand your first question, I’d like to restate the question so I can get clarification if my answer doesn’t completely answer your question.

Building #2 has only one eight hour shift in it, but the HVAC units are left on all the time.

Installation of electronic thermostats with intelligent recovery capabilities would probably be a good fit here. Their operation not only monitors the dry bulb air temperature and has timeclock abilities, but they also incorporate an additional sensor in the subbase that monitors the structure temperature, have a membrane operational rewritable memory, and uses algorithm programming to anticipate the correct cycling times of the HVAC systems to maintain the individual zone within the set points of their programming while at the same time conserving energy in the process.


Question 2:

Please provide addition information regarding the operational symptoms (vibrates badly) of this equipment and the noticed “blower problems” you stated. In other words, which particular component in the blower assembly is causing the vibration (drive motor, bearings, blower wheel(s), blower housing, drives, belts, ect.) and what specficly are your observed blower problems?

And no, as a Carrier dealer, we have not experienced any elevated problems with the blower section for this particular Carrier package unit.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[philip]

Mr. Dalton let me first thank you for the welcome and the apology. I look forward to more discussions in the future. For the 1st question, building one is approximately 45000 sq.ft. and building 2 is 65000 sq.ft. and builing 3 is 48000sq.ft. buildings 1&3 are on each side of builing 2. All are open to each other. There are 3 (not 2) but 3 40-ton package units suppling building 2. They ran non stop. The units doing everything they can do. We had one unit changed out last year. The other two are aproximately 13yrs old. The unit in question has been rebuilt 4 previous times. Two of those times since June of last year. Envolved in the rebuild was new txv's if the old ones were damaged, new blower housings, wheels, both shafts, bearings, pulleys, universal, and belts. I even went as far to order a bearing bracket for the blower section opposite the pulley. this way if the universal was to come apart that part of the blower would not drop down tearing up txv's, copper lines, etc. The blower wheels would spend to a slow stop. I think it was a good idea. By the units tring to cool three buildings instead of the one it was originally designed to do I believed the age and run have contributed to the continous problem.

[ultratec]

I still dont really understand some of what you are saying. From what I see, w/ these buildings connected, you are very undersized. Even using 250 Sq per/ton. Thats not even thinking about other loads. The building needs a revamping if they want to condition that entire space. EDIT >>> OOOPPPSSS lol.. Obviously your building is alot more then 250 sq. per/ton. Had a few beers, didnt mean 250, was gonna say 800 plus lol..

[Edited by ultratec on 06-17-2005 at 07:06 AM]

[sonc]

Hey John..Do you get paid by the syllable?

Just teasin..

Read that first post from a new member with no profile and I would suspect I was talking to the janitor.

I don't drive a desk , John. I drive a service vehicle.

And there is room for all of us on this fine forum.

So Flip, are you in this business?

[john dalton]

Dear Philip,

Regarding your posted comments, I’d like to make a few unsupported observations at this time, please correct me should you feel I’m either wrong in my assumptions, or conclusions:

You have a 158,000 square foot structure (looking at these three separate buildings as one unit).

You are supplying conditioned air to only the middle 65,000 square foot (41%).

Your total cooling capacity is 120 tons. (542 square foot/ton middle section only – 1,317 square foot/ton complete structure).

All three HVAC units operate 100% of the time, cycling on and off the compressors as a function of the internal and external loads, but almost always on).

One unit is new, the other two are 13 years old (equaling almost 39 years of operation of normal HVAC systems).

One of the 13 year old units has had four major overalls or refurbishings over the last 13 years (2 of which in the last 12 months).

You belief the continues operation of these units have lead to the current problems you are experiencing with the referenced blower assembly in this one HVAC unit.

You also belief that these units have to work continuously because of the additional two adjacent building zones that have to be conditioned as well.

Did I miss anything, or get anything wrong, please reply.

Conclusionary Section:

First and foremost, unless you have super insulated and sealed building structures with no internal lighting, and almost no internal heat load to speak of, and operate these buildings in a relatively cool climate, these HVAC systems are extremely undersized for the project.

Second, these units would not benefit from the programmable thermostats I first detailed to you.

These units should have a useful life expediency of approximately 12 to 14 years. You can continue to repair them, but at some point the repairs, unexpected shutdowns, and energy operating costs will warrant new equipment.

The recent two(2) blower repair projects were NOT done correctly, with the correct parts, or some major component or assembly was not addressed. This is based on the premature and accelerated excessive vibration, and eventual breakdown of the said blower assemblies.

At this time, that is all I can surmise from the posted information, please make comments on the information I just posted, and provide additional information about additional questions you may have regarding this project.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Sonc,

Regarding your posted comments,

“Read that first post from a new member with no profile and I would suspect I was talking to the janitor.”

Didn’t your mother ever teach you about judging a book by its cover? One of the most plainly covered books I have in my library has only five letters printed on it B…I…B…L…E. And I can tell you it contains all the answers in the universe friend.


”..I don't drive a desk , John. I drive a service vehicle…”

That’s great, I drive both, and for the last 31 years as well.


”And there is room for all of us on this fine forum.”

I would have to agree with you on this statement. Lets see if we both can continue to make this a “fine” forum for EVERYONE here.


”So Flip, are you in this business?”

Although I usually let people answer their own questions, I would point you to the first six(6) words in his original post friend.

The above comments are just my option, except for a few, that are nothing but the facts.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[philip]

Well it looks like your mama forgot to teach you how to spell. Its Philip not flip! Got It! You must be the helper on this service truck. I forgot you are a master in this field. I met your kind of jack legs before. May the force be with you my youg apprentice!

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by philip
Have 6 buildings joined togther and only 4 of them are air conditioned. In buildings 1,2,&3 only Building 2 has AC (2 40 ton units). Would you agree this is why they run an 8 hour shift with out shutting off?

If you're asked to run an 8-hour shift ...
THEN Work the WHOLE TIME !

[john dalton]

Gentlemen,

Let’s not forget we are here to learn and help one another, not put one another down. As fellow colleagues we should be offering either fact based answers, personal experiences, preferences, helpful suggestions, or constructive criticism, the key word here is “constructive”, or we should be just reading the thread without posting.

In other words, if you have nothing constructive or nice to say…..don’t.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Philip,

A word to the wise regarding this forum my friend.

“When you start participating in pissing contests with anyone, for any reason, always remember two things. One, no one ever wins a pissing contest, and two, usually all participants get wet in the process.

Just my option, based on a “wet” former participant of this manly form of stupidity.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[sonc]

Originally posted by john dalton
Dear Sonc,

Regarding your posted comments,

“Read that first post from a new member with no profile and I would suspect I was talking to the janitor.”

Didn’t your mother ever teach you about judging a book by its cover? One of the most plainly covered books I have in my library has only five letters printed on it B…I…B…L…E. And I can tell you it contains all the answers in the universe friend.


”..I don't drive a desk , John. I drive a service vehicle…”

That’s great, I drive both, and for the last 31 years as well.


”And there is room for all of us on this fine forum.”

I would have to agree with you on this statement. Lets see if we both can continue to make this a “fine” forum for EVERYONE here.


”So Flip, are you in this business?”

Although I usually let people answer their own questions, I would point you to the first six(6) words in his original post friend.

The above comments are just my option, except for a few, that are nothing but the facts.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton



I have only 1 thing to say..

http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/10700_your_a_fag_lol.jpg

[ultratec]

Sonc, why would you say that? Because you dont have the knowledge that he has in is pinky finger? This site is for adults in the HVAC Business, are you one of them?

[john dalton]

Dear Sonc,

I am? I got to tell you friend, my beautiful wife or twenty-three years, and my six wonderful children are going to be shocked when they find out.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[john dalton]

Dear Sonc,

Are you done with the jokes now? Because if you are, lets get back to business of Philip’s project so we ALL might benefit from ALL our combined HVAC knowledge, and experience, including yours …..my friend.

Respectfully Submitted,
John J. Dalton

[sonc]

I'm not sure...

I think Erik Estrada owes you an apology, though.

[richvito]

I have seen so many times in the past is Some service techs will speed up the blower thinking that it will Compensate for units lacking in Cooling Capacity.I would Contact a Service Company to check the Blower speed with the proper insturments (strobe)Before this excessive Vibration causes other problems for you.