York startup problem

[dmd-marc]

Hey everyone, I have an issue and I was hoping to get a little insight on. Ill start with my condtion then my problem. Bear with me. I have two 12 1/2 ton 410A condensers, single piped into a 25 ton evaporator. All equipment is York (Johnson Controls). Each condenser has two 6 ton scrolls that are piped in tandem but can be staged if necessary.

I have roughly 160 ft of lineset. I ran 1 3/8" suction line and 7/8" per mfg specs. I have from the condenser going back to the evaporator in this order. 6' of horizontal pipe, 13' of vertical pipe up, 100' of horizontal pipe, 8' of vertical pipe up, 25' of horitzontal pipe, then 6' of vertical pipe down to evaporator. So essentially my evap sits about 15 above the condensers. I installed a liq line filter drier, solenoid valves, sight glasses, and txv sized for 12 1/2 ton (410a) near the evaporator.

I have verified that driers are installed correctly and that liq line solenoids are opening.

My problem is that I dumped enough refrigerant to get me close with my charge and I'm trying to start the condensers up and trim the charge out. What is happening, is that i will energize one condenser and the suction press will maintain about 120psi. The high side will start off at roughly 175psi then steadily climb up until it trips the hps. I then tried the other condenser, and the exact same thing happened.

After scratching my head for a minute, I just energized one compressor on one condenser, and presto the pressures stabilized. So after I watched it run for a while, I shut it down and tried to energize only one stage on the other condenser. Same problem. head pressure starts normal then within a minute, it climbs until the high press trips. I thought at first I had a restriction, but after seeing one compressor on one condenser run pretty steadily., I'm dumbfounded Now I'm completely off in left field. I am going to try York tech support tomorrow morning but it is like pulling teeth to get a hold of them. I was looking for a little insight from my fellow workers first. Sorry for lingering on but wanted to include as much as possible. Thanks for any help that you can offer.

[klove]

Need to post a complete set of readings with one compressor running to see if you can get a grip on which direction to head. Are your condenser fans staging up as intended? Sight glass clear? Check for non-condensibles yet? Liquid line temp when trip occurs? Outdoor ambient temp? Superheat and subcooling need to be taken both at the condensing unit and at the evaporator to see if the lines are creating any issues in this scenario.

[y7turbo]

when you give us more info on the operating conditions, tell us exactly how the units are piped, what configuration are they in..

From your post it sounds like you have 2 seperate condensers, tee'd together at the condensers and ran with one 1-3/8" suction and one 7/8"liquid line to 1 evaporator.

Is the evap 2 circuit? Did you run 1 suction and 1liquid line to the evap for each condenser or are the condensers tee'd together?

[dmd-marc]

I have two two stage condensers single piped into a dual circuit evaporator. The condensers have fan cycling controls but I also tried running the consers with both fans at full speed. The only way I could get one condenser to run was have one stage of one condenser on. My readings were 130 suction and 150 on the high side. When I let the fans cycle off the control, they would maintain a head pressure of around 300 psi. I had a superheat of 15 deg. Liq line temp was fluctuating with head press control. Outdoor ambient was 38 deg. I had cranacase heaters on for over two days before startup. Could not run the other condenser long enough to get readings before head presure trip would occur.

[AiResearch]

Yes as the others said , all the test data will be required here. I myself have had strange problems with commercial R-410A equipment as compared to good ol 22. Even with a seemingly perfect job , it just does not always behave predictably. I hate to say it , but Im reading a mis-application of equipment here. Tee-ing two multi-stage condensing units into one lineset sharing a common refrigerant charge is not ideal IMO. I know , I know you dont always get to do what you want in this trade. There must be a huge refrigerant charge in that system with the 160' 7/8 liquid line. The 1 3/8 suction line is not large enough. More for 7.5 and 10 tons. Im wondering about that liquid drier..core type? Large enough? Surely you performed good evacuations , so there should be no atmosphere inside , which can make the head skyrocket. Ideally you would have a two circuit evaporator and two linesets sized for the length and 12.5 tons , then with capacity reduction you may have okay oil return. But that doesnt help you now. Or a 25 ton condensing unit. I am 100% sure these guys can help you if you post every piece of data you can gather.

[AiResearch]

I have two two stage condensers single piped into a dual circuit evaporator. The condensers have fan cycling controls but I also tried running the consers with both fans at full speed. The only way I could get one condenser to run was have one stage of one condenser on. My readings were 130 suction and 150 on the high side. When I let the fans cycle off the control, they would maintain a head pressure of around 300 psi. I had a superheat of 15 deg. Liq line temp was fluctuating with head press control. Outdoor ambient was 38 deg. I had cranacase heaters on for over two days before startup. Could not run the other condenser long enough to get readings before head presure trip would occur.

I think that suction line is your problem. Wait , with all 4 comps running I KNOW that suction line is your problem. It is too small and wont flow enough vapor. And so the high side builds up fast. Even with the low ambient.

[local553]

Maybe try and take your txv bulb off warm it up with your hand and leave it off and see if that helps.Sounds like it is not opening.Just a guess.

[y7turbo]

How much gas did you throw into this system?

Since you cant keep it online, Id be looking into taking out just enough to keep it running so you can take some pressure and temp readings and see whats up.. Who knows maybe you overcharged it.

Why would you connect 2 seperate condensers together and run only 1 lineset?

[dmd-marc]

I DID NOT RUN ONE LINESET! Sorry if I didn't explain it clear enough. I have one 12 1/2 ton condenser with 1 3/8" suction and 7/8" liq to one circuit on the evap. And I have another 12 /12 ton condenser with 1 3/8" suction line with a 7/8" liq. running into the other circuit n the evap. I have a 25 ton evap coil. I did the calculation from Johnson Controls piping chart and dumped around 38# into the one system. The application data said that my condenser had a 24# operating charge with matching evap with 25' lineset. Then the rest is for the reamaing 140' of lineset. But I only dumped 29# into the other system to start off and its doing the same thing. Sorry for the confusion guys.

[batterup]

if i understand what your saying correctly and the second circuit is tripping quickly before you can get readings and the refrigerant is 410a i would recovery refrigerant in that circuit and pull vacuum and recharge with virgin refrigerant. 410a is very funny if has to much oil in it. It will hunt on the suction not stable and head with trip quickly. you said you thought you had a restriction your condenser is what both circuits have in common it would affect one side just like the other. would like some readings to be able to help more. the side that will run.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Lessee if I am getting this: AH has a dual circuit 25 ton coil. Two 12.5 ton condensers (2 compressors in each condenser), and two linesets.

Did I get that right?

Initially, without any more information, here is what I see and where I would start:
Too much head means too much heat to release through the condenser coil and fan... With a 38D ambient and fans running full bore... you manage to release the heat.

I would recover enough juice to get the system running, and watch it... Ideal SC is around 9-10... Check your SH at the coil to see if the TXV is working properly.

Better IMO to collect all the information requested in previous posts.... and lets see how the system is functioning.

[y7turbo]

I DID NOT RUN ONE LINESET! Sorry if I didn't explain it clear enough.

No you didnt explain it clear enough..

You said you had 2 condensers "singlepiped" to one evap. WTF are we supposed to think?

[y7turbo]

I DID NOT RUN ONE LINESET! Sorry if I didn't explain it clear enough. I have one 12 1/2 ton condenser with 1 3/8" suction and 7/8" liq to one circuit on the evap. And I have another 12 /12 ton condenser with 1 3/8" suction line with a 7/8" liq. running into the other circuit n the evap. I have a 25 ton evap coil. I did the calculation from Johnson Controls piping chart and dumped around 38# into the one system. The application data said that my condenser had a 24# operating charge with matching evap with 25' lineset. Then the rest is for the reamaing 140' of lineset. But I only dumped 29# into the other system to start off and its doing the same thing. Sorry for the confusion guys.


Pull some of the gas and see where that gets you.. My starting point on a system like that would be around 20lb, and go from there..

[lynn comstock]

...My problem is that I dumped enough refrigerant to get me close with my charge and I'm trying to start the condensers up and trim the charge out. What is happening, is that i will energize one condenser and the suction press will maintain about 120psi. The high side will start off at roughly 175psi then steadily climb up until it trips the hps. I then tried the other condenser, and the exact same thing happened...Dumped Where?

[CFC Mafia]

I would lean towards being overcharged.
But I have seen on some of our rental units when the evaporator load is high. The scroll compressor will blow the oil into the condenser. It will look like overcharged but it will be oil blocking the refrigerant flow. Are the sumps on your compressors tied together, for oil equalization?

[shogun8]

I agree with CFC and remove about 20% on one unit and concentrate on working on it and see what you come up with. Another situation, at 120# your SST was about 34 *F so I suspect that you may have to check the TXV and/or the whether you are flashing in the liquid line, You know that your suction and liquid line must be a TEL of about 230 feet because of the various solenoids, fittings etc

[emcontrols]

Probablly asking a dumb question, but did you charge with liquid?
Also if you take pics of piping at evap coil showing TXV's, solenoids etc and at condensers showing piping, driers, and equipment location, along with M#'s on equipment that would help us visualize the app. 20-30lbs of refrigerant for that size of evap, cond and long linesets should not be tripping on high head on a 35 deg day, what is your head pressure when it trips??????

[local553]

should check your txv sounds like something not opening quick enough. like i said in my other post take bulb off warm in your hand start it se what it does.as far as being over charged maybe,what you are describing sounds restriction.process of elimination.

[y7turbo]

should check your txv sounds like something not opening quick enough. like i said in my other post take bulb off warm in your hand start it se what it does.as far as being over charged maybe,what you are describing sounds restriction.process of elimination.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the restriction. It would be one hell of a coincidence to have 2 seperate refrigerant circuits having the same problem unless he burned both valves when he installed them or their incorrect valves.. Also he stated he had 15 degree superheat with one compressor running, so the things feeding. He also stated that he had a 120 suction with both compressors running, if there was a restriction large enough to trip BOTH units out on high pressure I would be expecting the suction to drop lower than that.. Then again who knows how fast they are tripping out. We arent getting the best info to work with here..


I think he should pull enough gas to keep it running and take more temperature and pressure readings. I would hope on an install like this where he ran the linset, he would have installed pressure taps at the air handler to aid in diagnosis.

Watch, this guy wont come back to update the thread.. lol

[lynn comstock]

Nobody has considered the liklihood that the OP dumped the liquid refrigerant into the low side. This can cause one or more of the compressor popoff valves to open. What would that do? The OP never answered my question in Post 14.

[slugger1]

I'm assuming he has it up and running now it's been a couple of days. i've scene situations like this on startups on built up jobs. i'm assuming their were some valves installed to change driars tev's etc. probally forgot to open a couple, or solenoids were not energized. from what i understand he only has between 20 & 30 lbs of gas in each system so their shoulnd't be an issue, of overcharging, especially @ 38 ambient. got sent toa similar start up a couple of months ago was told all the units run great but they randomly trip hp. found all the solenoids installed at the condensers,w/out receivers so the units coulnd't pump down. Somtimes little things are missed in the excitment of startups.

[y7turbo]

Nobody has considered the liklihood that the OP dumped the liquid refrigerant into the low side. This can cause one or more of the compressor popoff valves to open. What would that do? The OP never answered my question in Post 14.

No one has asked if he had the panels on the condenser either, we assumed he would not dump 30 pounds of liquid into the suction line before starting the unit, we also assumed he had the panels on.

When you say popoff valves do you mean the internal relief valve? Sometimes we all have different names for the same thing..

If so, everyone one I have had open, you hear that sucker hissing and know what happened..

Explain to me how an internal relief will cause the head to rise enough to trip the head pressure switch, which in 410 systems is what, 500-600psi? I dont see how that would happen, im always willing to learn something new, if it makes sense.

The OP never answered your post #14 because in his profile it says he has not been back here for 2 days.

[y7turbo]

found all the solenoids installed at the condensers,w/out receivers so the units coulnd't pump down. Somtimes little things are missed in the excitment of startups.

Thats a good find, I can totally see that happening.

[lynn comstock]

...Explain to me how an internal relief will cause the head to rise enough to trip the head pressure switch, which in 410 systems is what, 500-600psi? I dont see how that would happen, im always willing to learn something new, if it makes sense. I missed seeing that somehow. My mistake.

Yes, popoff = internatal pressure relief valves. If they open immediately on startup from an oil or liquid slug, the sound may not be as big a tip off as when we hear the sound change during a running high pressure dump. I have seen several of these situations.

I am reluctant to assume that a tech does not do something stupid. I certainly have, but I would rather not divulge the details. :D

[CFC Mafia]

That sounds like a job that will technically work for the sign off. The customer will complain until about october. Then it will be cold and it will be off but hey, the customer is not complaining. Then they will scrape by until the warranty is up and then they will run like hell.

I started up a YCAJ56 with remote condensers one time. The contractor crossed the line set. After that was corrected. The 4 cylinder compressor would trip on oil pressure. Crankcase was sweating, I cranked on the TXV, took out gas, round and round, you guys know the deal.
Changed TXV, not it. Walked away for about a week. Woke up one morning and bam. I knew what it was. The gasket in the divider plate was broke between the 3rd and 4th pass. This allowed partial liquid to jump into the suction line instead of running down the 3rd pass looping back for the 4th pass and then into the suction.
Changed the gasket, did again right away. Grieman said change the barrel. That was the problem. of couse on that machine everything is bolted to the barrel, so down come the compressors and the control panel, plus it was in a basement.
Ah the good old days.

[y7turbo]

but I would rather not divulge the details. :D

lol..

Ive done some pretty stupid things myself, But what happens in the mechanial room, stays in the mechanical room. :)

[local553]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the restriction. It would be one hell of a coincidence to have 2 seperate refrigerant circuits having the same problem unless he burned both valves when he installed them or their incorrect valves.. Also he stated he had 15 degree superheat with one compressor running, so the things feeding. He also stated that he had a 120 suction with both compressors running, if there was a restriction large enough to trip BOTH units out on high pressure I would be expecting the suction to drop lower than that.. Then again who knows how fast they are tripping out. We arent getting the best info to work with here..


I think he should pull enough gas to keep it running and take more temperature and pressure readings. I would hope on an install like this where he ran the linset, he would have installed pressure taps at the air handler to aid in diagnosis.

Watch, this guy wont come back to update the thread.. lol

From what he posted it is on less than a minute.That is not enough to measure anything sounds like a restriction just a thought.

[local553]

if it is 410a 120 would be close depending on temps.And yes not enough info.

[y7turbo]

.And yes not enough info.

Yep..

There needs to be a form that is filled out as a requirement for posting a question.. All pressures,temps, everything..

[DavyB]

From what he posted it is on less than a minute.That is not enough to measure anything sounds like a restriction just a thought.

Does sound like a restriction on a long line set application. Hope he didn't braze any rubber plugs in the copper. I was also wondering if an undersized orifice could cause this.

[klove]

From what he posted it is on less than a minute.That is not enough to measure anything sounds like a restriction just a thought.

This post is indicative of what this poor fellow has had to wade through since asking for help. He was told initially that he needed to post a full set of readings and that without it all else is just a guess. That sentiment was agreed upon by most everyone here, yet most everyone here started speculating and didn't give the poor schmuck a chance to say anything before the guesses started rolling in. I honestly don't think I've read a thread where pure guessing was so prevalent. So I ask this: How do you know it's on less than a minute? Pretty big assumption, don't you think? And for all here that say it's a restriction or that a valve isn't opening (which is quite a few), you'd do well to know how refrigerant reacts in a condenser during a PUMPDOWN cycle.

For cryin' out loud, he's even been told that his company will ride it as is 'til the warranty is out and then drag up on the customer. How much farther out in left field can the speculation get?

Give the guy a chance to get back to the job and get his readings and post them. I'm sure that just like the rest of us, that job isn't the only thing going on in his life. If he don't get back to the forum, then he didn't really want help anyway, but don't hammer him 'til he's had a chance.

[y7turbo]

This post is indicative of what this poor fellow has had to wade through since asking for help. He was told initially that he needed to post a full set of readings and that without it all else is just a guess. That sentiment was agreed upon by most everyone here, yet most everyone here started speculating and didn't give the poor schmuck a chance to say anything before the guesses started rolling in. I honestly don't think I've read a thread where pure guessing was so prevalent. So I ask this: How do you know it's on less than a minute? Pretty big assumption, don't you think? And for all here that say it's a restriction or that a valve isn't opening (which is quite a few), you'd do well to know how refrigerant reacts in a condenser during a PUMPDOWN cycle.

For cryin' out loud, he's even been told that his company will ride it as is 'til the warranty is out and then drag up on the customer. How much farther out in left field can the speculation get?

Give the guy a chance to get back to the job and get his readings and post them. I'm sure that just like the rest of us, that job isn't the only thing going on in his life. If he don't get back to the forum, then he didn't really want help anyway, but don't hammer him 'til he's had a chance.


Its the internet, people are bored and throw ideas out there and guess.. Its up to the poster to take the info with a grain of salt and sift through the bull****, its part of being on a forum.

If the guy posted better information, he would have better responses..

[AiResearch]

This post is indicative of what this poor fellow has had to wade through since asking for help. He was told initially that he needed to post a full set of readings and that without it all else is just a guess. That sentiment was agreed upon by most everyone here, yet most everyone here started speculating and didn't give the poor schmuck a chance to say anything before the guesses started rolling in. I honestly don't think I've read a thread where pure guessing was so prevalent. So I ask this: How do you know it's on less than a minute? Pretty big assumption, don't you think? And for all here that say it's a restriction or that a valve isn't opening (which is quite a few), you'd do well to know how refrigerant reacts in a condenser during a PUMPDOWN cycle.

For cryin' out loud, he's even been told that his company will ride it as is 'til the warranty is out and then drag up on the customer. How much farther out in left field can the speculation get?

Spoken like a bright man with some sense. This thread HAS been all over the place. But you know , like Turbo just posted , it IS the internet and it IS entertainment for some folks. And a seasoned contractor or technician will use this wonderful site as an information tool. And not the gospel.

Give the guy a chance to get back to the job and get his readings and post them. I'm sure that just like the rest of us, that job isn't the only thing going on in his life. If he don't get back to the forum, then he didn't really want help anyway, but don't hammer him 'til he's had a chance.

Spoken like a bright man with some sense. This thread HAS been all over the place. But you know , like Turbo just posted , it IS the internet and it IS entertainment for some folks. And a seasoned contractor or technician will use this wonderful site as an information tool. As an ADDITIONAL perspective. And probably not the end all.

[lynn comstock]

With no hard data, pressures and temperatures and some initial wrong information about the system piping, what do we have to work with? Speculation is a normal step in the trouble shooting process. That is followed by obserbation and testing to identify the underlying problem or problems. Problem solving is entertainment for me and for a lot of other pros on this website.

[CFC Mafia]

I apologize for implying that his company would not follow through. I'm sure as a licensed and insured contractor he recognizes the responsibility to do the right thing.

From what it sounds like, the system may not be the easiest to work with. I wonder why they did 2 condensers on one ahu? And staging 4 compressors sounds like trouble in the making. Maybe they couldn't get a 12 ton with multiple stages. I would stage the compressors at the same time. Meaning left condenser stage 1 right condenser stage 2. Like the York Sunline roof tops.

I thought that during pump down your head pressure would be somewhat stable because you are stopping the flow of refrigerant. These days you don't see as many receivers but on that job with the long line set he may need one. And a serviceable drier core is not a receiver.

[local553]

Klove, his second thread says trips on head to fast to get readings.As far as less than a minute goes he said he scratched his head for a minute.I think his head is tripping in less than a minute.

[local553]

units that are designed for pump down don't they have receiver or over sized condenser.Sounds like a restriction to me,just saying not edged in stone.

[klove]

Klove, his second thread says trips on head to fast to get readings.As far as less than a minute goes he said he scratched his head for a minute.I think his head is tripping in less than a minute.

If you have your instrume.......Yeah, honey - I'll be there in a second......Where was I? Oh yeah - have your instruments hooked up, it takes far less than a minute to look at a gauge and get a reading. I think from this example that we can safely ASSUME that his intention of "a minute" was purely rhetorical, and doesn't need to be used for purposes of troubleshooting until substantiated.

It does help to have a receiver on pumpdown systems, but it's not necessarily necessary.

[klove]

...From what it sounds like, the system may not be the easiest to work with. I wonder why they did 2 condensers on one ahu? And staging 4 compressors sounds like trouble in the making. Maybe they couldn't get a 12 ton with multiple stages. I would stage the compressors at the same time. Meaning left condenser stage 1 right condenser stage 2. Like the York Sunline roof tops.

I thought that during pump down your head pressure would be somewhat stable because you are stopping the flow of refrigerant. These days you don't see as many receivers but on that job with the long line set he may need one. And a serviceable drier core is not a receiver.

You've never seen multiple condensing units on a single air handler? Or never staged compressors? I'll leave those two questions alone.

Head pressure during pumpdown does stabilize - at a lower pressure than normal due to lack of addition of heat, declining densities of gas being pumped, and the fact that you're bringing a refrigerant towards it's static ambient pressure/temperature point. Same thing happens with a restriction, be it a drier, cap tube, TXV, etc., it just don't necessarily happen all at once. The lines would have to be astronomically long (or there would have to be a design flaw of a large nature, like putting LLSV's at the condensing unit instead of the ahu on a long line app) for the amount of refrigerant at close to normal charge to completely flood the condenser to a point that the head pressure would trip it's safety under a restricted flow condition 'cause all you're adding to the volume of liquid in the condenser is what's taken from the suction line and evaporator and condensed - the liquid line was full already.

[AiResearch]

I apologize for implying that his company would not follow through. I'm sure as a licensed and insured contractor he recognizes the responsibility to do the right thing.

From what it sounds like, the system may not be the easiest to work with. I wonder why they did 2 condensers on one ahu? And staging 4 compressors sounds like trouble in the making. Maybe they couldn't get a 12 ton with multiple stages. I would stage the compressors at the same time. Meaning left condenser stage 1 right condenser stage 2. Like the York Sunline roof tops.

I thought that during pump down your head pressure would be somewhat stable because you are stopping the flow of refrigerant. These days you don't see as many receivers but on that job with the long line set he may need one. And a serviceable drier core is not a receiver.


Discharge pressure goes high during pumpdown , all system refrigerant is being compressed and pushed into less space , and probably in a vapor state and not condensed , it may be at saturation. If a technician has a gauge on the liquid line after the service valve , he wont see this increase in dishcharge pressure , he will see a decrease obviously , most people put a gauge there for that purpose , you really should be watching discharge pressure as well during a manual pumpdown , esp if its a new system and you are testing , it can go out of sight , when the screwdriver is on the contactor , safety controls dont work so well , I dont think the OP indicated the problem was during pump down did he? A system like this should have a "drop" solenoid anyway and not pumpdown. Too long lines. Drop LLSV will prevent migration and "wet" or flooded start when used with crankcase heat.

[local553]

I'm not here to do his work as far as trouble shooting. Said what i thought it might be.From past experience thats what it sounds like.But the more you post i wonder if u know how a unit acts when resricted.

[klove]

I'm not here to do his work as far as trouble shooting. Said what i thought it might be.From past experience thats what it sounds like.But the more you post i wonder if u know how a unit acts when resricted.


Apparently I don't know, so tell me how a system reacts when restricted and why it acts that way...

[AiResearch]

You've never seen multiple condensing units on a single air handler? Or never staged compressors? I'll leave those two questions alone.

Head pressure during pumpdown does stabilize - at a lower pressure than normal due to lack of addition of heat, declining densities of gas being pumped, and the fact that you're bringing a refrigerant towards it's static ambient pressure/temperature point. Same thing happens with a restriction, be it a drier, cap tube, TXV, etc., it just don't necessarily happen all at once. The lines would have to be astronomically long (or there would have to be a design flaw of a large nature, like putting LLSV's at the condensing unit instead of the ahu on a long line app) for the amount of refrigerant at close to normal charge to completely flood the condenser to a point that the head pressure would trip it's safety under a restricted flow condition 'cause all you're adding to the volume of liquid in the condenser is what's taken from the suction line and evaporator and condensed - the liquid line was full already.

Klove he has 7/8 liquid lines , during a pumpdown , depending on where the LLSV is , you could fill the condenser coil very quickly before the lineset and evaporator are down , tripping HPS. This is probably a control or wiring issue , somethin silly , he's probly got it goin and hasnt come back to clear things up. You say wiring issue? WTH? LLSV. But he had a 120 suction!! So? If the LLSV is at the cond unit , and it is miswired, so much freakin refrigerant in suction line , evap coil , and liquid line , the poor compressors never get a chance to drop the low side pressure before the cond coil is full and thunk. Off on HPS. YA WE ARE ALL SPECULATING!!! :grin2:

[klove]

Klove he has 7/8 liquid lines , during a pumpdown , depending on where the LLSV is , you could fill the condenser coil very quickly before the lineset and evaporator are down , tripping HPS. This is probably a control or wiring issue , somethin silly , he's probly got it goin and hasnt come back to clear things up. You say wiring issue? WTH? LLSV. But he had a 120 suction!! So? If the LLSV is at the cond unit , and it is miswired, so much freakin refrigerant in suction line , evap coil , and liquid line , the poor compressors never get a chance to drop the low side pressure before the cond coil is full and thunk. Off on HPS. YA WE ARE ALL SPECULATING!!! :grin2:

Let's not speculate - let us go with what we've actually been told:

Read the OP and see what he says about the placement of his LLSV's. Then read my post (#39) and see what I say about placement of LLSV's on long line applications. Where did I say anything about wiring?...

[AiResearch]

I'm not here to do his work as far as trouble shooting. Said what i thought it might be.From past experience thats what it sounds like.But the more you post i wonder if u know how a unit acts when resricted.

I know how I act when I'm restricted!!:grin2:

[AiResearch]

Let's not speculate - let us go with what we've actually been told:

Read the OP and see what he says about the placement of his LLSV's. Then read my post (#39) and see what I say about placement of LLSV's on long line applications. Where did I say anything about wiring?...

Okay. You can say it. GOTCHA! I just threw the wiring out there. How many jobs have you had to re-wire the controls to make it run right? I like them Alabama boys. Got family in Montgomery.

[local553]

depending on where the restriction is.Not going to give theory because it won't be right and this will go on and on.I do know if Liquid line and condenser full and there is restriction in liquid line and long line set going to act like what he is describing from past experience.Not all restrictions act like pump down systems

[local553]

Alabama nice state only problem u boys and futher south work for next to nothing put the screws to the rest of us

[CFC Mafia]

[QUOTE=klove;9681692]You've never seen multiple condensing units on a single air handler? Or never staged compressors? I'll leave those two questions alone.

My point was on such a small system. I have seen multiple condensers. Ive seen multiple compressors. Ive even seen a 19DR with a 11, 21 and a 31 DM compressors.
Hows that for old school.

Also if you read the OP he leads us to believe that each of the 4 compressors has the ability to run independently. With only 2 suction lines how will you keep your velocity in the suction line if only one compressor runs? My point was trouble with oil return.

[AiResearch]

Alabama nice state only problem u boys and futher south work for next to nothing put the screws to the rest of us

WoW. I'm would be willing to bet strongly that talent from say , Birgmingham , Jacksonville , Miami , New Orleans , Little Rock , Atlanta , Dallas , etc , their earnings would be comparable to up north metro areas , esp when you factor cost of living.

[local553]

Yes I said it wrong not all most of them guys.Now u can not put words on my post nothing was said about talent at all.But i do know cost of living is not much different than where i am from.

[AiResearch]

Yes I said it wrong not all most of them guys.Now u can not put words on my post nothing was said about talent at all.But i do know cost of living is not much different than where i am from.

Dont think I "put words on your post". Simply replied b/c I thought it was rather offensive.

[AiResearch]

[QUOTE=klove;9681692]You've never seen multiple condensing units on a single air handler? Or never staged compressors? I'll leave those two questions alone.

My point was on such a small system. I have seen multiple condensers. Ive seen multiple compressors. Ive even seen a 19DR with a 11, 21 and a 31 DM compressors.
Hows that for old school.

Also if you read the OP he leads us to believe that each of the 4 compressors has the ability to run independently. With only 2 suction lines how will you keep your velocity in the suction line if only one compressor runs? My point was trouble with oil return.


19DR? A Carrier centrifugal? 11, 21 , 31DM? Centrifugal compressor models? Care to fill us in on that? Anything like CE063 or 5H80?

[klove]

[QUOTE=klove;9681692]You've never seen multiple condensing units on a single air handler? Or never staged compressors? I'll leave those two questions alone.

My point was on such a small system. I have seen multiple condensers. Ive seen multiple compressors. Ive even seen a 19DR with a 11, 21 and a 31 DM compressors.
Hows that for old school.

Also if you read the OP he leads us to believe that each of the 4 compressors has the ability to run independently. With only 2 suction lines how will you keep your velocity in the suction line if only one compressor runs? My point was trouble with oil return.


What's the difference in staging compressors on a dual compressor circuit and unloading half of a recip compressor, regardless of tonnage?

[y7turbo]

What's the difference in staging compressors on a dual compressor circuit and unloading half of a recip compressor, regardless of tonnage?

its the same thing Klove..


I still stand by my comments.

He has two separate refrigerants circuits that share a 2 circuit evap. He charged one condenser with less refrigerant.. Im willing to bet thats the 1 he can keep running with only 1 compressor..

Hook up a recovery tank to the unit and dump a little gas so you can keep both compressors online and do further diagnosis.. it will only take 10 minutes to do this and will help in diagnosis.. Its what I would do and i think a step in the right direction.


I highly doubt component failure and I doubt even more its a restriction.

this thread is f-ing crazy..

[klove]

its the same thing Klove..

It was a rhetorical question for the benefit of the poster that was quoted. I already know the answer.

And since we're all speculating, I'd check for non-condensibles before I did anything else, just in case something unsuspected had happened during startup prep. That's the easiest and least expensive thing to do that may very well lead to the answer. All this other that requires work and time may be a waste of work and time. Takes 15 minutes to check for n/c's and then move on if that's not it.

[AiResearch]

Has the OP not been back? Surely we do not care more about it than he does? Did anyone consider that possibly the whole job is an f-ed up mess? That maybe it all needs to be un-installed and start from scratch? I see it all the time. If that were the case , no amount of posts and rhetoric can save the day. No offense to the OP , it could have been circumstances beyond his control , but again this is a SPECULATION!!!! LOL

[AiResearch]

C'mon klove , I know you gotta laugh in there.... since this thread is already wacked.

[AiResearch]

[QUOTE=klove;9685372] Takes 15 minutes


It takes 15 minutes for most guys to get offa the celly and get outta the truck!!!! LOL

[klove]

Alabama nice state only problem u boys and futher south work for next to nothing put the screws to the rest of us

Well, ya' know we're just a bunch a' poor ol' dirt road rednecks that go to work just to get away from our fat, barefoot, pregnant, whinin' wives. Don't take much money to keep us in fishin' worms an' shotgun shells. Can't live above your means.........

By the way - what do you call "next to nothing"? I've heard this same statement by others at different times and to me it begs the question, "Am I underpaid, or do folks from other areas have the opinion that they're worth more than they actually are"? Am I underpaid? Answer the first question and we'll see.

[xpuser357]

Well, ya' know we're just a bunch a' poor ol' dirt road rednecks that go to work just to get away from our fat, barefoot, pregnant, whinin' wives. Don't take much money to keep us in fishin' worms an' shotgun shells. Can't live above your means.........

By the way - what do you call "next to nothing"? I've heard this same statement by others at different times and to me it begs the question, "Am I underpaid, or do folks from other areas have the opinion that they're worth more than they actually are"? Am I underpaid? Answer the first question and we'll see.

Just to comment I am in Missouri I get paid 25.00 an hour. 37.50 ot. unless I work for the state on a few times I will get prevailing wages.

[y7turbo]

since this thread is already wacked.

Its a great thread, its hard to find entertainment like this..

The OP comes to the internet expecting help, but posts almost no real information, So it was doomed from the start.

You got some people saying there are rubber plugs suck in the piping

some people are saying that TXV's are bad

You got some guys saying relief valves are opening.

some people are saying the charge may not be correct (me)

some people say that they should let it ride till the warranty ends

you got others in here trying to be "above" everyone else and talking down to others then guessing themselves.

Then to top it off, the OP wont even come back to the site..


This thread has it ALL!!!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[AiResearch]

Its a great thread, its hard to find entertainment like this..

The OP comes to the internet expecting help, but posts almost no real information, So it was doomed from the start.

You got some people saying there are rubber plugs suck in the piping

some people are saying that TXV's are bad

You got some guys saying relief valves are opening.

some people are saying the charge may not be correct (me)

some people say that they should let it ride till the warranty ends

you got others in here trying to be "above" everyone else and talking down to others then guessing themselves.

Then to top it off, the OP wont even come back to the site..


This thread has it ALL!!!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:


Ya Turbo! I see you got some frosties there... Glad to see SOMEONE has a sense of humor on this site. Next round on me.

[AiResearch]

Coriander pops for everyone! Why are we talking about work anyway , it's the weekend.

[y7turbo]

Why are we talking about work anyway , it's the weekend.

Same reason we come to a website about our trade after working all day.. :cheers:

[AiResearch]

Hey Turbo? Wanna talk salaries? LOL!

[AiResearch]

Same reason we come to a website about our trade after working all day.. :cheers:

LMAO. We are a passionate bunch. (cover up for : aint got nuttin better 2 do)

[y7turbo]

Coriander pops for everyone! Why are we talking about work anyway , it's the weekend.

what the hell is a coriander pop?

If you're passing them out, id like to know what it is..

[AiResearch]

what the hell is a coriander pop?

If you're passing them out, id like to know what it is..

Understandable. That is a : "spiced belgian style wheat ale brewed with real orange and citrus peels paired with coriander spice. Uniquely crafted , award winning ale that is unfiltered to produce a brew that is naturally cloudy with a light golden color." sounds kinda weird , very tasty.

[y7turbo]

Understandable. That is a : "spiced belgian style wheat ale brewed with real orange and citrus peels paired with coriander spice. Uniquely crafted , award winning ale that is unfiltered to produce a brew that is naturally cloudy with a light golden color." sounds kinda weird , very tasty.

That sounds kinda good. What brand is it?

[y7turbo]

(cover up for : aint got nuttin better 2 do)

:LOL:::DD:

[AiResearch]

That sounds kinda good. What brand is it?

Its a Shock-Top , Turbo. Very similiar to Blue Moon. :grin2: I read the label. LOL theres also a dark one called Turbo Dog. You may like.

[y7turbo]

theres also a dark one called Turbo Dog. You may like.

They named it after me. lol

I like anything turbo.

[y7turbo]

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29/39908

?

[AiResearch]

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29/39908

?

Nice addy. I like. So what's the deal on friends and instant messages for this site? , just in case there is a particular affair that needs immediate attention? Btw , I see a pressure regulator on by your name there....Chi town got interesting stuff huh..

[y7turbo]

Nice addy. I like. So what's the deal on friends and instant messages for this site?

I think you need to apply for pro membership to have private messaging and the friend thing.. Have you done this already?

[AiResearch]

I think you need to apply for pro membership to have private messaging and the friend thing.. Have you done this already?

Okay I gotcha. No I haven't done that yet. Long time reader here. New member. Maybe I'll submit tomorrow and see if the commitee likes me.

[AiResearch]

Thanks for the tip.

[y7turbo]

Thanks for the tip.

There is more areas to the forum when you're a pro member, its worth taking the time to send the email to the web site..

[y7turbo]

:hijacked:

[AiResearch]

I see I see. My post count is there. I'll apply soon. It seems people only want to post about troubleshooting here. Should general trade talk about commercial systems go somewhere else?

[AiResearch]

:hijacked:

Yes. Major hijack here. However , it can come back around in a second. The OP is thinking "these guys are nuts" and called his service manager.

[y7turbo]

Should general trade talk about commercial systems go somewhere else?

Make a thread with the subject you're looking to talk about.. People will respond.

[y7turbo]

The OP is thinking "these guys are nuts" and called his service manager.

If he has one that knows service..

By reading some posts on this site, I dont think some people have service managers who know how to turn a disconnect off.

Im lucky, my boss had helped me through some jams, hes a smart guy.

[AiResearch]

Make a thread with the subject you're looking to talk about.. People will respond.

I started what I thought was a tasy one on the refer section , we'll see if anyone has a thought.

[y7turbo]

I started what I thought was a tasy one on the refer section , we'll see if anyone has a thought.

I'll stop by there and take a look. I try to get into the reefer section once and a while, there are some smart people posting in there...

[AiResearch]

If he has one that knows service..

By reading some posts on this site, I dont think some people have service managers who know how to turn a disconnect off.

Im lucky, my boss had helped me through some jams, hes a smart guy.

For sure. You are lucky. A lot of SM's I see are people fireman = put out the customer dis-satisfaction fires.

[AiResearch]

I'll stop by there and take a look. I try to get into the reefer section once and a while, there are some smart people posting in there...

Hey! Rite on. YESSSS there are some really smart cats on that section fo sho.