View Full Version : I own a building and need HONEST advice
38north
03-09-2011, 02:31 PM
we have 2 rooftop units that are approx 12 yrs old. These are Carrier.
One has gone out (heat exchanger) and the other works but is showing signs of age
I have two quotes ti replace both units (the thinking is that the other will fail soon--due to them being the same age...one for a carrier and the other for an American Standard
The only benefit I see of changing them both now is that a crane would be used and needed only once
total price installed for the TWO American Standard units vs carrier is about 4500 more. each has the same Warranty.
We are strapped for cash...lack of tenants right now...not even enuf to pay the rent.... (but i would like to keep the building--as we are a tenant as well)
So is the AS better and more relalble than the carrier for the cost difference?
All advise is welcome --- we need it quick...we're in Chicago and need heat!
VTP99
03-09-2011, 02:37 PM
we have 2 rooftop units that are approx 12 yrs old. These are Carrier.
One has gone out (heat exchanger) and the other works but is showing signs of age
I have two quotes ti replace both units (the thinking is that the other will fail soon--due to them being the same age...one for a carrier and the other for an American Standard
The only benefit I see of changing them both now is that a crane would be used and needed only once
total price installed for the TWO American Standard units vs carrier is about 4500 more. each has the same Warranty.
We are strapped for cash...lack of tenants right now...not even enuf to pay the rent.... (but i would like to keep the building--as we are a tenant as well)
So is the AS better and more relalble than the carrier for the cost difference?
All advise is welcome --- we need it quick...we're in Chicago and need heat!
How long do you plan on owning the building? What size units ?
coolwhip
03-09-2011, 02:39 PM
12 years old isnt that old...I have worked on RTU's much older than this. Why not replace the heat exchangers and get on a preventative maintenance contract?
IMO, American Standard is no better than Carrier.
VTP99
03-09-2011, 02:43 PM
12 years old isnt that old...I have worked on RTU's much older than this. Why not replace the heat exchangers and get on a preventative maintenance contract?
IMO, American Standard is no better than Carrier.
This is good advice. Carrier heat exchangers are cheaper then most as for the AS (Trane) you better sit down before i tell you.
38north
03-09-2011, 03:07 PM
Well... I was hoping this building would be my retirement $$$..someday.
we are the first floor tenant ..and the second floor is all office space, but is not rented much...and we may convert to one 1500 ft apt.
these carriers are 4 ton units...they are rusted too...(in fact, i was warned that it could be bad idea to fire them up...due to a rusted out whole..in some of the metal --- which may be replaced?)
the units also have the condensor for the ac too.
the replacement units are
carrier 48TCEA05A2A
American ASYSC048E3EHA0000
help me please
VTP99
03-09-2011, 03:14 PM
Well... I was hoping this building would be my retirement $$$..someday.
we are the first floor tenant ..and the second floor is all office space, but is not rented much...and we may convert to one 1500 ft apt.
these carriers are 4 ton units...they are rusted too...(in fact, i was warned that it could be bad idea to fire them up...due to a rusted out whole..in some of the metal --- which may be replaced?)
the units also have the condensor for the ac too.
the replacement units are
carrier 48TCEA05A2A
American ASYSC048E3EHA0000
help me please
I just can't see spending the extra money on those American Standards but then the AS guys will say something differant i'm sure. Carrier make a good RTU unit and the parts prices are within reason. Just my :.02:
38north
03-09-2011, 03:57 PM
is it everyone opinion that I should repalce both units in full...or just try to get by with with heat exchanger?
acwizard
03-09-2011, 04:16 PM
Another scenario is ask several contractors if they have any blemished units with factory warranty still intact. If not then I would opt to go the heat exchanger route for a short term solution.
Are these down draft units with a curb or side draft with exposed duct on the rooftop?
38north
03-09-2011, 04:44 PM
these have a curb..so the carriers would fit into exisiting ones......
as for your comment... about short term
My concern is that...why spend $3k on short term? What else can go wrong..to the point that I should have gone the full system?
it will soon be spring.. and then summer...so we wont be using heat much more..
does any of this repair affect the AC thst we will be using soon?
I'm so torn as what to do...and money is tight
please re-read my message...please
This is a throw-a-way world. To be able to give you advise on keeping/repairing as apposed to replacing would depend on the condition of the AC controls and compressor(s). Even if they were in OK shape you will need repairs on them the older they get, just a fact of life. A new HX would/should give you another 10 or more years. Will the AC portion hold up? I think most of these guys will tell you that 12 years is an average age on a compressor before replacing. There are exceptions but you will find this number very close.
Replacing just the HX may not solve your heating issues such as... Do you also need a new draft inducer motor and new housing? Do you need the heat shields and plates that are located just above the burners. How about the ignition system? Is the ignition board and spark assy still in good condition? How about the burners? If not, all this will add up very quickly.
Look, cranes are not that expensive but the cost of a replacement unit, labor and permits will not go down. AS and Carrier have their differences, some good some not so good but it's like purchasing a car. Want a Cadi or a Chevy? Is there a difference in the Chevy's... is one a car or a 4X4 truck? They can be ordered with extended warranties too.
Remember I said... it's a throw-a-way world? OK, see how much you can get out of each unit via salvage. Seems the crooks of today steal enough of these to make a few hundred bucks. Have the crane load them up on your trailer, not the AC company's. Take them to a scrap yard yourself. The AC company may thank you for doing that. At our paid out labor rates it costs us money to get rid of them. Are they charging you a demolition/removal charge?
Why did I ask you if they were on a curb... easy. If the new units are being installed with a curb adapter you should make sure you have the model and serial number off of the old units and keep it in a safe place. In 10 or 15 years you will need to replace them again. Without the original model and serial you will need to remove the newer units to get the curb measurements again.
You are going to do one of two things... you are going to replace one now and hold off for the other to break down or you are going to replace both at the same time. It would be cheaper in the long run to replace both now to save on labor and crane but have you thought that your AC company maybe giving you a better deal on the units by getting both at the same time? I think it's time to ask him then stand on your decision to replace both now.
.
VTP99
03-09-2011, 05:12 PM
these have a curb..so the carriers would fit into exisiting ones......
as for your comment... about short term
My concern is that...why spend $3k on short term? What else can go wrong..to the point that I should have gone the full system?
it will soon be spring.. and then summer...so we wont be using heat much more..
does any of this repair affect the AC thst we will be using soon?
I'm so torn as what to do...and money is tight
please re-read my message...please
If the compressors go your going to regret you did heat exchangers.
A brand for brand change out should go fairly smooth. Having the same footprint .
Drunkgoat
03-09-2011, 05:31 PM
lennox L series are a pretty sweet unit
genduct
03-09-2011, 05:56 PM
And the $ should be more competitive so change them both and figure you won't have several service calls to keep the remaining one limping along.
New units would also send a signal to potential renters
genduct
03-09-2011, 06:00 PM
I have several scratch and dent units. Voltage and mod #
You can contact me at email in my profile
I have several scratch and dent units. Voltage and mod #
You can contact me at email in my profile
His/her first post says they are in Chicago
y7turbo
03-09-2011, 07:02 PM
Get a few quotes from different companies.
What part of Chicago are you in?
38north
03-09-2011, 07:11 PM
west of Chicago....15 miles
maxpower
03-09-2011, 07:47 PM
My opinion...:)
I would go with long term thinking. I know $$ is an issue but the smaller Carrier RTU's are junk. The type of units you have, carrier hasn't changed much over the years.
Trane would be my choice. The are designed better and are more reliable. Make sure you get programmable thermostats with them.
Peztoy
03-09-2011, 08:06 PM
4 ton rooftops aren't much as for heating capacity. What I'm thinking is get yourself some portable electric heaters for your out of commission unit to buy yourself some breathing space. Winters almost done. How's the rest of the building? I'm sensing your going to need deep pockets. Maybe a new partner.
BatesTech
03-09-2011, 09:15 PM
replace the rtus usually if a heat exchanger is going out shows the condition of the rest of the unit. But summer is almost here I would change them out come fall.
BatesTech
03-09-2011, 09:23 PM
stick with carrier it will save you on any conversion costs like curb adapters (where the unit meets the roof and channels into the duct)
jayguy
03-09-2011, 09:51 PM
...What I'm thinking is get yourself some portable electric heaters for your out of commission unit to buy yourself some breathing space. Winters almost done...
i would recommend the heat exchanger (instead of space heaters) but for the same reasoning...breathing room. you don't know the condition of the cooling in the units. you don't know the condition of the cooling needed for the building either! you sound like you are renovating and changing the space to fit the tenants needs. so how do you know what need you have for ANY unit?
replacing the unit to save a few bucks, only to hear that your tenants are unhappy due to an undersized OR oversized cooling unit is not saving money.
get yourself some heat. then have your contractor or engineer take a look at your building to make sure that you get the RIGHT unit, regardless of brand. this will also give you some room to get more bids or do more research.
BACnet
03-09-2011, 10:27 PM
I'll admit that I'm not qualified to give this person advice, but I have a related question that I'd like to pose to the group.
Why not entertain the concept of replacing the two units with one that's twice the size? Wouldn't the efficiency generally be higher and the initial single unit cost be lower? I realize that duct work would have to be run to join them and controls would have to be smart enough to "direct traffic" and also assign billing appropriately but that's hardly difficult with controls nowadays...
Clearly this is not the answer or others more familiar with this part of the industry would have posted it already. But I'm still curious why it's not an option.
hvac248
03-09-2011, 11:30 PM
we have 2 rooftop units that are approx 12 yrs old. These are Carrier.
One has gone out (heat exchanger) and the other works but is showing signs of age
I have two quotes ti replace both units (the thinking is that the other will fail soon--due to them being the same age...one for a carrier and the other for an American Standard
The only benefit I see of changing them both now is that a crane would be used and needed only once
total price installed for the TWO American Standard units vs carrier is about 4500 more. each has the same Warranty.
We are strapped for cash...lack of tenants right now...not even enuf to pay the rent.... (but i would like to keep the building--as we are a tenant as well)
So is the AS better and more relalble than the carrier for the cost difference?
All advise is welcome --- we need it quick...we're in Chicago and need heat!
HOW old is the vehicle you drive and why?
Having work on a few Rtu's in the chicagoland . 12 year old roof tops are not that old . I still service 20-25 year carriers that are still in pretty good condition . heat exchangers will go and not that bad on the bottom line to replace . I know life on a roof top is 15 yrs in this area ,but if its maintain shouldn't have a problem getting 20 yrs out of it
I'll admit that I'm not qualified to give this person advice, but I have a related question that I'd like to pose to the group.
Why not entertain the concept of replacing the two units with one that's twice the size? Wouldn't the efficiency generally be higher and the initial single unit cost be lower? I realize that duct work would have to be run to join them and controls would have to be smart enough to "direct traffic" and also assign billing appropriately but that's hardly difficult with controls nowadays...
Clearly this is not the answer or others more familiar with this part of the industry would have posted it already. But I'm still curious why it's not an option.
Simply the cost alone is prohibited.
The roofing will need to be torn out along with the original curbs. A new single curb would need to be fabricated and installed by a roofing company after they get a structural engineer to asses the weight limits and new load. He would then need to sign off to the city/county inspectors before a permit could be processed. You also run the possibility of other code enforcement that is grandfathered in at this time. Newly designed roof could also mean bringing everything up to current codes.
Second. There would be the expense of redesigning the duct work and adding comfort zones.
Third would be the down time if a single unit were to stop working. All heat and AC would be lost. If there are two units and only one were down then you would still have some heat or cooling in the building.
You may also have energy savings by running two units as apposed to one larger unit. Both units may not call for temp at the same time thus reducing energy consumption overall.
:.02:
ttsda0001
03-11-2011, 08:14 PM
is it everyone opinion that I should repalce both units in full...or just try to get by with with heat exchanger?
You better check on the heat exchangers some units come with a 20 year warranty on the heat exchangers so all you would be out of is the labor to install them. but 12 years old is not old in my opinion as well. What made them rust out so quick I wonder?
38north
03-11-2011, 08:50 PM
this has sure been a learning experience.
as for what made them rust? how about the 20" of snow we just had.
or the elements? I wish they were inside...but it looks like we will replace both---
lions_lair
03-12-2011, 06:09 PM
My opinion...:)
I would go with long term thinking. I know $$ is an issue but the smaller Carrier RTU's are junk. The type of units you have, carrier hasn't changed much over the years.
Trane would be my choice. The are designed better and are more reliable. Make sure you get programmable thermostats with them.
:ditto: tranes got the rtu"s sewed up.. :.02:
VTP99
03-12-2011, 07:18 PM
:ditto: tranes got the rtu"s sewed up.. :.02:
Not in Ohio. Carrier is what i see more of. Personally i think Lennox is the Cadillac of the RTU's world :yes:
maxpower
03-12-2011, 07:43 PM
I think replacing heat exchangers are a waste of money. Once the unit is that old, its time for a new rtu. Thats a big investment for an old unit.
I like to compare that to installing a new engine in a old car. Is it really worth it?
ga-hvac-tech
03-12-2011, 08:02 PM
:ditto: tranes got the rtu"s sewed up.. :.02:
Yes, IMO the Trane Voyager is a fine unit... However the parts cost is outrageous! And Trane makes it REALLY difficult for anyone other than an authorized Trane dealer (a high volume one mind you) to get Trane parts (many Trane parts are proprietary). Kinda engineered high cost built in...
(BTW: Am/Std is Trane with a different label on it).
The Carrier would probably be fine... and if it fits on the existing curb without an adapter... that is a HUGE cost savings.
One more point to consider: Trane's require special T-stats... Again locking you in. The Carrier will run on whatever stat you choose.
y7turbo
03-12-2011, 09:19 PM
Yes, IMO the Trane Voyager is a fine unit... However the parts cost is outrageous! And Trane makes it REALLY difficult for anyone other than an authorized Trane dealer (a high volume one mind you) to get Trane parts (many Trane parts are proprietary). Kinda engineered high cost built in...
(BTW: Am/Std is Trane with a different label on it).
The Carrier would probably be fine... and if it fits on the existing curb without an adapter... that is a HUGE cost savings.
One more point to consider: Trane's require special T-stats... Again locking you in. The Carrier will run on whatever stat you choose.
the new trane reliatel boards have the CTI built in.. you can run conventional stats or trane stats..
You can also get trane units with out the fancy controls. We just installed (2) 7.5t precedent units. Stripped down, no reliatel boards, just a standard unit.
38north
03-12-2011, 09:50 PM
Ok..I do not know why,,,,but I just got a bid where American Standard was only $750 higher than the Carrier...and was told that it was because of the Curb...
if that would be the case...will i better with the AS ? ....keep in mind we are buying TWO units...(Thats a $1500 increase in costs)
previous bids were about $3000 higher between units...
more thoughts?
ga-hvac-tech
03-12-2011, 09:54 PM
Ok..I do not know why,,,,but I just got a bid where American Standard was only $750 higher than the Carrier...and was told that it was because of the Curb...
if that would be the case...will i better with the AS ? ....keep in mind we are buying TWO units...(Thats a $1500 increase in costs)
previous bids were about $3000 higher between units...
more thoughts?
So is the bidder saying the A/S unit will sit on the existing curb without an adapter? Might want to get this in writing.
y7turbo... Was not aware of this... I generally do not do much RTU anymore... tired of going on roofs... resi work is easier and pays more... :)
VTP99
03-12-2011, 09:58 PM
So is the bidder saying the A/S unit will sit on the existing curb without an adapter? Might want to get this in writing.
y7turbo... Was not aware of this... I generally do not do much RTU anymore... tired of going on roofs... resi work is easier and pays more... :)
I took that as though the extra cost was because of the curbs needed.
38north
03-12-2011, 10:33 PM
yes..,...the higher price is because of the curb,,,
is the AS unit normally the same price and the curb the differcne? and is AS better?
mizzouhvac
03-13-2011, 10:27 AM
I work for a larger carrier dealer and have alot of experience on carrier rtu's. This particular problem you have I have seen before. There are several things to consider, first the heat exchanger can be replaced but as Lusker noted you may have more issues than that, i.e. combustion blower replacement, burner replacement etc.
I would evaluate why the heat exchanger failed? Poor airflow? Not enough return air? There are several possible causes. These can also have an effect in the cooling mode. I would recommend having the cooling checked as well. Is the condenser coil all beat up from weather, etc.
As far as brand goes, a ford dealer thinks his truck is better than a chevy right? In my experience a carrier, trane, lennox etc installed correctly can be a quality system for a customer for years. However installed incorrectly it doesn't matter what brand name it is.
VTP99
03-13-2011, 12:59 PM
yes..,...the higher price is because of the curb,,,
is the AS unit normally the same price and the curb the differcne? and is AS better?
No. Whenever i get pricing from my supplyers the AS is more. As far as why the heat exchangers rust out is the same question for cars. Granted a premature failure could be caused by the indoor air quilty. Last one i had like this was for a photo shop. Toasted in five short years .
BatesTech
03-13-2011, 05:58 PM
I would agree nothing is more pleasing to my eye when I get to the roof and see its a lennox I will be working on. Very technincian friendly accesible and engineered with common sense.
msw951
03-19-2011, 12:10 AM
In my opinion, I would go with the Carrier units if you were to replace the old units. The AS (Trane) parts will cost you more over time. That is if your repair man goes OEM.
38north
03-19-2011, 09:31 AM
we went with the AS...cost was only $1500 above the carrier...this included new curbs...
what I did not know...was...that the curbs had to go on top of the carrier curbs...so now we have units that rise another 2 ft (approx)...and added wieight to the roof....
but ....as long as thats OK...then I'm fine
they also put cheaper non-baffled filters in...and suggest that we use those instead...and change them every 60 days instead of every 6 months
Did not go with the economizer
timebuilder
03-19-2011, 10:47 AM
Skipping the economizer is a mistake.
This means that if you want cooling in spring and fall, you will be running compressors, which will cost you MUCH more energy than bringing in outside air.
PLUS, the new thinking on building science is to require outside air be brought into the building. So, unless you have windows that open, you will have stale air in the building, and high levels of CO2 from exhaling occupants.
It's too late for me to tell you to but a couple of Carriers up there, but its not too late for the economizers.
Since these are new trane units, the reliatel boards will accept conventional thermostats. Get programmable Honeywell Vision Pro stats.
That's my two cents. Sorry I didn't catch you sooner.
jayguy
03-19-2011, 12:05 PM
Skipping the economizer is a mistake...
yup. spend what it takes to get the economizers and the pleated filters...a clean coil is a happy coil and it is a cheaper running coil.
marvin
03-19-2011, 12:38 PM
while you are in the bidding stage why not look into dual fuel rtu
may save you on operating costs in the future
jayguy
03-19-2011, 02:54 PM
while you are in the bidding stage why not look into dual fuel rtu
may save you on operating costs in the future
post #43 seems to talk about being a little past the bidding stage
VTP99
03-19-2011, 02:58 PM
post #43 seems to talk about being a little past the bidding stage
:grin2: Better late then never !
Peztoy
03-19-2011, 03:37 PM
No economizer. Guess thats how the Trane got to be competitively priced. Customer will pay for it in the long run.
timebuilder
03-19-2011, 04:37 PM
yup. spend what it takes to get the economizers and the pleated filters...a clean coil is a happy coil and it is a cheaper running coil.
So True!!!
I have so many sites where they THINK they are saving money by having us install those grainger fiberglass filters that fall apart in your hands, instead of a good quality pleat.
Then, you write the unit up for coil cleanings (building surrounded by trees, no less) and they act like you are trying to rip them off.
Fools.
mizzouhvac
03-20-2011, 08:41 AM
I highly recommend having a economizer installed. You may as well take advantage of the "free cooling" available to you. Cost wise it is cheaper to use outdoor air to cool with than mechanical cooling when it is available. Plus it will save run time and wear on your compressors. I know its a tough decision sometimes but I always recommend to my customers to spend a little extra now to save more in the future.
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