Refrigerant oil

[happy67]

Does R22 have Refrigerant oil in it?

My issue is I had a leak in a 3.5 ton Seer 14 system with a Scroll compressor (Heil HAC442AKA4) and in pumping down the unit I took out about 5 oz of refrigerant oil out. I did not put it back since I was told that the R22 cylinders had oil in them. In checking around I could not confirm this. Now I'm not sure what to do. I don't want to put too much oil in and I don't want to burn the unit up or reduce its efficiency.

Any thoughts?

For those who asked, I have a recovery unit. I did not pump it all the way down since I locked off the valves. And I had a professional look at it after it was installed. Thats where I got the information on the R22. NOW can I get some useable information!

[Edited by happy67 on 06-05-2005 at 12:00 PM]

[j-man04]

ok ok ill be the first one to ask you why did u pumpdown ur unit i want to know why u did it

[ct2]

Call someone that knows what they are doing! If you had a leak in a 14 seer unit chances are it did not have r-22 in it and if that is the case the oil will not be the same and is not misable with the oil in a R-22 system

in pumping down the unit I took out about 5 oz of refrigerant oil out. I did not put it back since I was told that----

How did you "pump down the unit"?
How do you know you took out 5 oz?
Who told you r-22 has oil in it?
and why cant you put back the refrigerant you recovered

you are about to damage an expensive unit-when you do finally call someone out, please post how much money you saved by doing this yourself

[j-man04]

where u get R-22 and what u do with the R-22 u took out call a pro

[theblueshirtguy]

Originally posted by ct2
If you had a leak in a 14 seer unit chances are it did not have r-22 in it...

If it doesn't have R-22, what is in there? I though that all A/C units were charged with R-22.

[edward301]

Unit most likely had 22 or 410. If 410 the oil is
not compatable with the oil in 22. If they are mixed
now you are going to have big trouble.

Outside condenser should have a data plate/label
that says what kind of refigerant is has.

The compressor comes with a premeasured amount of
oil in it. Refigerant has some oil mixed in it, but
you will have to replace what oil you took out of
system. But lets hope you did not put 22 in a 410
system. Lineset, everything will be contaminated.

[ct2]

And I had a professional look at it after it was installed. Thats where I got the information on the R22.

If you got that information from a professional(r-22 having oil in it) you better find out what kind of professional he is because they dont mix oil and r-22 in containers. it is put in a compressor in a very precise amount

I have a recovery unit. Good! then put the amount you recovered back in.....ah you didnt recover the charge because if you had you wouldnt be asking this question

I did not pump it all the way down since I locked off the valves.

If you have a system with a blend refrigerant you cannot recover a partial charge and you cannot add to a partial charge in a system system and if it is a blend you cannot add R-22 to it

theblueshirtguy quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ct2
If you had a leak in a 14 seer unit chances are it did not have r-22 in it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If it doesn't have R-22, what is in there? I though that all A/C units were charged with R-22.

nope: and if you try using your r-12/22 gauges or any other equipment that is not rated for higher pressures, you will be in for a big surprise

r-22 is not all they charge ac's with

[sayco bob]

As far as of I am aware Heil Does not make a R-410A unit. How and why do you know that 5 ounces of oil was removed from your unit? A typical residential unit has a hermetic (sealed) compressor has no way to check the oil level other than to remove all the oil (remove the compressor and place up-side down to drain) then re charge with the proper amount and type of mineral oil (R-410a uses a POE oil) I have never seen this done! Most manufactures allow for a normal amount of oil loss due to leakage in the design. Unless you have some facts to verify oil loss I would not do anything to correct this. If you do I would contact a pro in your area that can assist you.

[beenthere]

If you closed the service valves and had 5 ozs. of oil in the lines you left the thing run frozen for a long time.

If the cyclinder had oil in it, how would you know the proper amount of oil was going back in with the r22.


But if you think you took out 5 ozs. of oil and didn't, when you add 5 ozs. of oil it won't hurt anything.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by sayco bob
As far as of I am aware Heil Does not make a R-410A unit.

If they don't make them, why do they advertize them.
Check their web site.

[Yuma]

If it doesn't have R-22, what is in there? I though that all A/C units were charged with R-22. [/B]

Oh I can guess that IT could have R-22 or in my neck of the woods there are units still out there with R-500 and R-12 running through their veins.(Al thou not Heils)
But like what has been noted it could be R-410A. Look at the data tag like has been stated.
And again HOW do you know you took 5 oz.s out?
Sounds like you DO need a Professional to help you out. You can be treading on thin ice and screw up the whole system and balance of the A/C's life. :)

Yuma

[dnt]

EPA has just reoriented the eye in the sky, oh you know the satelitte that can focus in on a dime and read the date from space, it is swinging over to your location please turn and look up so we can get facial recognition, have you ever been convicted of a felony? Please hold your certification card still so we can record the information do not force us to use the XRay vision option, it costs a lot more to operate and if cranked up to high has been known to cause instantaneous combustion. Resistance is futile.

[happy67]

Thanks to all those who answered me. For clarification this is an R22 unit and I did not contaminate either the refrigerant oil or refrigerant (I gave the model number). I plan to replace the oil. Now I have two questions--

1. Is there any way to put oil in the system wihout drawing a vacuum on it?
2. Should I put any extra oil in it and how much is to much extra.

[ct2]

1. Is there any way to put oil in the system wihout drawing a vacuum on it?


sure you just open the oil fill hole and pour it in the crankcase.HOW ELSE DO YOU THINK YOU PUT OIL IN A PRESSURISED SYSTEM



YOU DONT LISTEN VERY WELL DO YOU?
write us again next weekend when you want to know about a new system because you are about to destroy this one.

good luck, I hope you dont hurt yourself or anyone else in the process

[happy67]

I thank you for your concern on my safety. I've double checked this unit has R22 repeat R22. The initial installation had a leak in the tubing so I simply locked off the compressor and evacuated the evaporator coil and tubing with my recovery unit. I didn't know how much material was in the coil side so it took 5oz of oil and the refrigerant to evacuate the system.
The serviceman that came out to check the unit showed me how to dump most of the refrigerant back into the compressor which I will do from now on. I believe he said shut the compressor down when the suction pressure is around 10 lbs. Is that about right?
By the way I do have my license to buy R22.

Somebody assumed that this wasn't R22 and that created a condition that everybody seemed to jump on, it's not right!!!

I came on this site for help but instead got a lot of remarks that were not helpful. If people had just answered my questions a lot of time and effort could have been saved.

I am an retired engineer with some knowledge of many things. But I don't know everything.

As for the insertion of oil it would seem that if a strong container with oil were evacuated and then connected to the system the pressures would equalize and the oil would run into the system by gravity. Am I wrong? And if so why?

Hope this answers a lot of the questions that people were so concerned about.

[beenthere]

If the system was in a vacuum, and a hose was inserted in the oil container the oil would draw into the system.

I use a oil pump to add oil to systems.
It looks some what like a hand air pump for bicycles.

You didn't say how you determined that you took out 5 ozs. of oil.

[Yuma]

Originally posted by happy67
I didn't know how much material was in the coil side so it took 5oz of oil and the refrigerant to evacuate the system. ( Oil & refrigerant?)

I believe he said shut the compressor down when the suction pressure is around 10 lbs. Is that about right? ( NO It should be 0 psig!)

By the way I do have my license to buy R22. (Then you should have known the answer to your question. You, as a
engineer should know that you need to learn all about a system first!)

Somebody assumed that this wasn't R22 and that created a condition that everybody seemed to jump on, it's not right!!! (Correct, some new high seer units are R-410a)

I came on this site for help but instead got a lot of remarks that were not helpful. If people had just answered my questions a lot of time and effort could have been saved.
[( A lot of people that do not know one end of a screwdriver come here and ask questions just like you did and they can hurt them self's.)

I am an retired engineer with some knowledge of many things. But I don't know everything. ( A first! then you know that their are limits of what you should or should not do? )

As for the insertion of oil. ( Pump it in with a oil pump.)

Hope this answers a lot of the questions that people were so concerned about.

Yes we are concerned for you and our own profitability.

My two cents.
Yuma

[happy67]

I have a Robinair 17650 Recovery system. The amount of oil it seperated out was 5 oz. This is recoverable and a feature of this machine.

[ct2]

I have a Robinair 17650 Recovery system. The amount of oil it seperated out was 5 oz. This is recoverable and a feature of this machine.



I have one of those to and mine came with an instruction book. You are an engineer and you ask how to add oil and you ask if you need to draw it in with a vacume.


and you only recovered a partial charge? how do you plan on fixing the leak? are you going to recover the rest of the charge? are you trying to recover out of the liquid side? or the suction side?

[happy67]

Your assuming I have a leak, I don't. The leak was during the initial installation and was repaired. Yes I asked for alternate ways to put oil in and left it as an open ended question hoping for alternate ways of putting the oil in. Yesterday I put 5 oz in using the vacuum (correct spelling), drew a vacuum on the system for 1/2 hour started it up and guess what cold air.
When my first unit was put in the person reviewing the installation told me the best information I ever received, He said as long as theres moisture on the large line (return line) just keep the coils clean and don't do anything else. I used this information and the Lennnox system lasted 26 years and was running when it was replaced with the high efficiency system. Not bad lets see how long this one lasts?

Hey by the way I learned something new on the net. A system doesn't get to its rated efficiency til 8 or 9 minutes into its on cycle. Most macines cycle on for about 5 mins. Doesn't this mean that for maximum efficiency there should be two system? One there runs continuously and a supplemental that kicks on when the primary machine cant keep up with the load. Having two systems would add reliability to the cooling, electrical power efficiency and the continuously running system would constantly remove moisture.

[jdenyer]

How did you fix the leak? Braze it with a partial charge in it:eek:

[seymour bullwang]

I know this is an old thread, and you can flame me all you want but here goes anyway.
I have a lot of experience in large scale HVAC control systems, along with a background in auto AC. However I am no expert in residential central AC repair. So when both of my around 14 year old Carrier systems began to not be able to meet set point on the hottest days I suspected a low charge, as everything else seemed to be ok. The filters were new, there was no water leaking in the pans and the air handlers were running. The compressor, and condensor fans were running and the amperage draw was as per name plate.
So I called a friend who is a Refer. Tech. for one of the largest mechanical contractors in NJ. He charged both units, however the smaller of the two did not respond well. He suspected non condensables and red flagged the referigerant. So I asked him to recover the charge and re charge it with fresh R22. He could not do it because he "did not have the recovery equipment on the truck".
Gee, why not?
About an hour later the compressor began growling badly. I shut it off and called a local HVAC company. The guy showed up a few hours later, I explained what had happened with the first guy, and he pronounced the system to be overcharged. The compressor was getting slugged with referigerant, the first guy, who did not use any kind of scale at all while charging had put too much in. Ok, again I said go ahead and take some out, but don't just dump it, recover it. Once again I got the "I don't keep the recovery equipment on the truck" and he said he would come back either the next day, (Sat.) or the following Monday. Well, I never heard from him again.
The moral is this. I believe a lot of you "professionals" are used to dealing with no nothing customers, who do not demand recovery. I suspect not all of you, but some would just as soon dump the charge when no one is looking. Open the service valve a little and go have coffee or something.
I suspect that a lot of you are really a bunch of pompous posers.
And yet you torture this poor guy for asking a question about adding oil to his unit.
And you are also correct, this is not rocket science, it is fairly simple stuff that needs to be delt with in a sane and rational manner.
When you call your local phone book HVAC guy, you could very well be getting some clown that knows little or nothing about all the theory, physics, and science you guys bable about.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by seymour bullwang



So I asked him to recover the charge and re charge it with fresh R22. He could not do it because he "did not have the recovery equipment on the truck".
Gee, why not?




Myself, I have an old LV 1 recovery machine on the truck, and all the other service trucks have recovery machines on them also.(Strange that everyone else has lighter machines then me)

Maybe your friend is a hack for not having one on his truck, and the tech that came out later.


But then again, the EPA law doesn't require one to be carried on the truck.

[beshvac]

All our trucks have one on them, at $3.00 a gallon I don't want to make two trips. What was the method you used to select these techs. The first one sounded like a "friend" doing a favor, and didn't even know how to charge.

[perel]

Just curious, did the tech who said the R-22 had oil in it have a car AC background by any chance? R-22 *did* come premixed with oil for MVACs, just like you can get R-134a with oil premixed for MVACs now. Not sure if it's a good idea to add oil that way, especially on a leaky system, but it does seem to be a fairly common practice for auto repair.