incomplete tuneup

[Waxer]

I have been on a service agreement with an HVAC company for 2 or 3 years. Payment in advance gets me an ext. warranty for a Lennox G32V and two 'tuneups' each year...one for the furnace one for an AC. For the 3 or 4 times they have come I have been impressed with the check they do on each unit. Today however, before I almost knew it, he had left after vacuuming inside the furnace and in the combustion chamber and had replaced the hi eff media filter. That is he never went outside to the ac unit. This is so unlike other detailed tuneup appts I have had with this company in the past. I even checked the furnace filter and I am sure he installed it the wrong way down....ie he didnt take note of the airflow. (Just to make sure I not imagining things but the airflow is likely down, towards the base of the furnace?...I even held a piece of paper and it was pushed down towards the ground as I thought)

I guess I will call the company. Of course I dont want this particular tech to return. He wont be happy. It shouldnt have to come to this :( Any suggestions on how I should approach the call to the service manager to have it be most constructive?

[miami mike]

Did he give you a copy of some paperwork? Like a checklist?

Did he fill out the outside/condensor part of that checklist?

[dash]

Just call them and let them know how todays service ,wasn't the same as the past,I'm sure they will be happy to redo the work.Maybe just a "bad day" or a new guy,might want to let them know how long or short time he was there.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by miami mike
Did he give you a copy of some paperwork? Like a checklist?

Did he fill out the outside/condensor part of that checklist?

There is a list indicating what a tuneup includes but none is checked off. I didnt feel comfortable asking at the end of the visit when *he* had decided he was done to ask him specifically if he did this and that etc. I tried to be subtle...ie "do you think the outside unit needs to be washed down?" He then asked if it was near a dryer vent. I said no and he then said no ;(.

[ct2]

In the time it took to post the question here, you could have called the company and had them send another tech out to complete the call

[miami mike]

Originally posted by Waxer

Originally posted by miami mike
Did he give you a copy of some paperwork? Like a checklist?

Did he fill out the outside/condensor part of that checklist?

There is a list indicating what a tuneup includes but none is checked off. I didnt feel comfortable asking at the end of the visit when *he* had decided he was done to ask him specifically if he did this and that etc. I tried to be subtle...ie "do you think the outside unit needs to be washed down?" He then asked if it was near a dryer vent. I said no and he then said no ;(.

Thats kind of odd. Most companies have a sheet that asks for certain things to be recorded (pressure,superheat, drain line cleaned...etc) and then that sheet is signed and a copy is left with the customer.

Call the company and explain what happened and ask for a different tech to come and complete the maintenance. The management will probably thank you because the only way they can find out techs are taking short cuts are if you the customer tells them.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by ct2
In the time it took to post the question here, you could have called the company and had them send another tech out to complete the call

Yikes. Just asking for some opinions. I had called in the mean time and the service manager was out.

[dnt]

Heck these techs may be making so much cash that they are hiring some bums off the street corner (illegals) to make their rounds for them while they hang out at the local pub? Better get a call in to the company next time one pulls up at your crib, to make sure he is not a imposter and casing the joint or something.

[miami mike]

Originally posted by dnt
Heck these techs may be making so much cash that they are hiring some bums off the street corner (illegals) to make their rounds for them while they hang out at the local pub? Better get a call in to the company next time one pulls up at your crib, to make sure he is not a imposter and casing the joint or something.

You cant be serious.

[Steve Wiggins]

Waxers problem is typical of most. He called a company without requesting a person. Companies don't service equipment, people do.

Don't you service agreement buyers understand that these companies are sending their top techs on commercial jobs and trouble calls while leaving the rookies to do the grunt pm work. Now think about it. How beneficial can that really be to the consumer?

[aircooled53]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
Waxers problem is typical of most. He called a company without requesting a person. Companies don't service equipment, people do.

Don't you service agreement buyers understand that these companies are sending their top techs on commercial jobs and trouble calls while leaving the rookies to do the grunt pm work. Now think about it. How beneficial can that really be to the consumer?

That's not always true , I do alot of P.M.'s and teach the new technicians the right way to completly check out the system.They fill out the
Model# Serial#
Pressures/amps
Condenser coil/clean/condition
condenser inlet/outlet /temps
superheat/sub-cooling
condensate area/main/secondary
blower voltage/amps/wheel alignment
Evaporator/condition/T.D.
Filter size/#
Ductwork/condition

[Irascible]

You want to know what the real irony is Waxer? Though that tech likely didn't do his job right, he most likely cost you nothing. Yearly residential PMs are mostly dog and pony shows put on to appeal to the homeowner's emotional well being. Homeowner's feel better after a maintenance. Does the equipment run better? On year after year maintenances (as opposed to doing them every two or three years), NO (http://hphaa.com/editorials/maintenance/maintenance.htm).

The real purpose of PMs? To make the contractor money. ALL of the top business trainers in our trade push maintenance dogmatically. Why? There's a direct correlation between how many maintenance contracts a contractor has to how much money he makes. One of the gurus says that to do a million in business you need 1000 maintenance contracts. Why the contract? Because maintenance contract customers buy new equipment more, buy bogus (http://hphaa.com/editorials/index.htm) ancillary services more and shop around less. In essence you are "locked in" to that contractor.

I have no problem with making lots of dough. But I won't do it on false premises. Do you really think they improve system performance year after year Waxer? It's not likely. I've done thousands of PMs, many of which were for the year after year types. The very first maintenance usually bears some fruit because the homeowner has usually neglected the equipment. The second year may be OK because since I fixed everything up the first year I'll desperately hunt around for something unusual to correct. Sometimes I find it. By the third year? I take the cover off and it doesn’t look any worse than the year before. It's useless tedium. I don't condone that tech's actions. But I understand them. There are a lot of us who hate dog and pony shows.

Yes there are exceptions. I can't speak to oil burners here in natural gas land. I suspect they need more attention than our stuff. But other than that and a few other exceptions year after year maintenance (as opposed to every two or three years) usually produces peace of mind for the homeowner and not much else. Peace of mind is a good thing! But just tell a customer that peace of mind is the extent of it and watch how many people cancel their year after year contracts.

Think I'm wrong? PROVE IT. Where's the study showing that dogmatic yearly (as opposed to every second or third year) maintenance produces real benefit? It doesn't exist. I've seen vague references to some ancient study that was both narrow in scope and specific to a certain region. But you can't find the actual study online. Even the contractor’s own numbers prove it. Find a contractor who fills out those forms; pull a couple thousand of them on year after year customers; analyze the readings and look for improvements; then you’ll have your proof. But it will NEVER happen. The futility of dogmatic maintenance is a dirty little secret that no one with the money to fund a study would want exposed.

[gatorguy]

Irascible:

Thanks a freaking lot! Now that you've let out our secret, we have to kill everyone who reads this post. It's gonna get messy...

[Irascible]

Teehee.

[coldbud]

heeeee's back!

[Black Adder]

Irascible

I agree with you 100% after the first major tuneup on a neglected unit, I don't see any difference when the owner asks for a service the following year. You are correct in saying that the home owner is buying peace of mind. We do a lot of gas furnace PM work, most of the repeats are little old ladies scared to death of gas. Often the news reports and CO detector advertisers scare these people into having their equipment checked. It certainly reassures them when you check it out and report that they will not die in their beds from the furnace, but as far as improving performance, I don't see it.

[Irascible]

Well at least there are two level headed techs out there.

In case my exclamation point wasn't convincing enough for potential detractors, I have no problem with performing work whose primary goal is peace of mind. But unlike the hustlers out there I'll be up front with granny and tell her when that's the case. And if she still wants me back year after year then God bless. I'm more than happy to listen to all the stories about gout, the grandchildren and the good old days. :)

[AllTemp]

Respectful of my colleages opinion a Preventative Maintenance Agreement affords my customers discounts to service parts in the unlikely event they need them and help prevent unseen failing contactors, belts, refrigerants leaks and the like....

My PM Agreements don't giv eme alicense to steal.

Our trades biggest profits come from neglected systems, lack of maintenance causes equipment failures you cannot argue that....

Proper maintenance provides HVACR equiment a longer life...

But I guess you could argue Black is White if you want too..

[Black Adder]

It is true that proper maintenance will extend the life of a system, but in all honesty how often is "proper maintenance". I think once a year is overkill. I tell my furnace customers that once every 2 to 3 years is plenty providing they are willing to change filters themselves. If they are not willing to do that then even once a year is not often enough if only to change filters.

[Irascible]

"Preventative Maintenance Agreement affords my customers discounts to service parts"
No argument there. While I don't pretend to speak for your shop specifically, it's undeniable that the vast majority of shops price their flat rates high enough to cover the discount and more. If McDonalds openly and suddenly raised their prices by 30% but offered everyone who paid into their plan a 15% discount there would be outrage. The plan wouldn't be called a discount. It would be called coercion. In general when companies go flat rate prices go way up and then a discount that's smaller than the increase is offered to plan members. Woopetydoo! They should feel honored. :rolleyes:

Don't misunderstand. Prices often NEED to go up. There's nothing immoral about raising prices. In fact, not charging enough to pay your employees well and stay in business to back your product IS the immoral choice. But at the same time raising prices enough to cover discounts to certain services and then offering that discount to people who buy other services is not much of a deal. It may be smart. It's certainly legal. It's been done forever and it's done by almost everyone in our industry and beyond. But a deal? It's more like Two-Card Monty.

"My PM Agreements don't giv eme alicense to steal."
No one said anything about theft.

"Our trades biggest profits come from neglected systems"
No one said otherwise. I said that the business trainers almost uniformly teach that YEARLY maintenance agreements are the single greatest factor in determining an HVAC shop's success. Hence my point was that most shops push YEARLY agreements religiously for their own benefit. There’s nothing wrong with self-interest. But I refuse to blow smoke up my customer’s rears telling them that yearly tune-ups are likely to benefit them in the second and third year.

"Proper maintenance provides HVACR equiment a longer life."
No one said otherwise. You're debating a point no one made or even implied. Over and over the point was concerning dogmatically pushing maintenance YEARLY. There is no proof whatsoever that it benefits the customer more than every two or three. And there are plenty of common sense observations to prove just the opposite. Any tech that's seen the same residential gas furnace year after year after year knows this.

Suggesting that YEARLY maintenance for years on end (beyond that of the filter) is an absolute must on all residential equipment... THAT'S calling black white.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible
Does the equipment run better? On year after year maintenances (as opposed to doing them every two or three years)

Do you really think they improve system performance year after year Waxer? It's not likely.

Yes there are exceptions. I can't speak to oil burners here in natural gas land. I suspect they need more attention than our stuff. But other than that and a few other exceptions year after year maintenance (as opposed to every two or three years) usually produces peace of mind for the homeowner and not much else.


Great post. But as I recall I cant get the year to year extended warranty on the furnace (I dont have it on the AC) unless I agree to the yearly maintenance. And that does make sense doesnt it? How can they provide a parts and labour ext warranty unless the furnace/AC is properly maintained?

And isnt a yearly tuneup more worthwhile...for the consumer.. for the furnace than rather than the AC? And so when I do finally speak to the service manager maybe I should request a free furnace 'tuneup' in the fall/winter rather than having them return to check the AC?

[Irascible]

I am unfamiliar with the concept of the "year to year extended warranty". When I sell a system the customer may buy a 5, 10 or in some rare cases a 15 year extended warranty. That warranty is through the manufacturer and is bought once, not year to year. Some large contractors will self-insure. So perhaps this year to year thing you speak of is their unique offering. If not then they're engaging in coercion. You emphatically do not have to be on their maintenance program to buy an extended warranty from the manufacturer or to even keep one valid.

As far as the maintenance required by the warranty goes, I just looked at a Trane warranty. It states that damage caused by a failure to properly maintain the furnace as set forth by the user manual will not be covered. You have to think like a lawyer on this one. It does not say that the lack of yearly maintenance voids the warranty. It states that if the failure is caused by the lack of maintenance then the warranty is void. There's a HUGE distinction there. Precious few warranty claims I've put in for could have been proven to have been caused by lack of maintenance. Proof is a tough thing to come by and make stick. A guy named OJ showed us that. And even if there was proof OEMs rarely give a rat's behind. It would cost them too much money and cost them too much in goodwill to go around proving their customers are negligent. The only time they're known to investigate is when there are repeated warranty claims on expensive items from the same customer. Send in for your third compressor and sure, they'll take notice.

The most realistic way to judge these things is to look at reality and precedent. In ten years I've never had a claim denied. Nor have I ever heard of a claim being denied except on very expensive parts as outlined above and in other very rare circumstances. And in ten years I've had multiple claims go through that should not have. In most cases that was because factory tech support told me to go ahead and submit it for warranty even though we both knew the part failed due to abuse - abuse as in gross negligence, not because the customer dared to skip a year of precious contract maintenance.

Plus there's another way to look at it. If we have to do what the user manual states to maintain the warranty then what does it state? A Trane manual I'm looking at says you should clean your air filter once a month. So the contractor's twice a year visit is already useless in fulfilling the user manual's suggestion. It also says that annual cleaning of the blower wheel and housing is recommended for maximum output. Do they pull the blower assembly out each year? I doubt it. Most contractors don’t do that every year because most of the time it would make no sense. But these user manual requirements are spelled out in fluffy terms. They’re recommendations. The words “you must” don’t appear. It’s possible that another OEM is stricter. But if so then it’s a bluff. They’ll spend way less money giving you a part than they will proving a part failed due to lack of maintenance.

Plus… (I’m rambling because I’m good at it.) New furnaces are low maintenance. The regularity with which they recommend blower and filter cleaning are only suggestions. Beyond that what do they recommend in the manual? Visual inspection! That’s right. The crux of modern day maintenance is visual inspection. The motors are sealed and can’t be oiled and the burners don’t need regular maintenance. They say as much right in the manual.

The bottom line is that most contractors tell a lot of half-truths in selling maintenance. Do your maintenance. Do it yearly if that pleases you. But don’t believe them when they tell you that your OEM warranty depends on their service (you could have anyone do it or you could even just claim it was done) or that your system will deteriorate severely if you skip a year. In the vast majority of cases such claims are lies.

[Edited by Irascible on 06-04-2005 at 05:14 AM]

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible
I am unfamiliar with the concept of the "year to year extended warranty". When I sell a system the customer may buy a 5, 10 or in some rare cases a 15 year extended warranty. That warranty is through the manufacturer and is bought once, not year to year.

You emphatically do not have to be on their maintenance program to buy an extended warranty from the manufacturer or to even keep one valid.
[Edited by Irascible on 06-04-2005 at 05:04 AM]

I am learning lots here. Appreciate it. Some more background. I am in Ontario Canada. 4 years ago I had my 20 year old furnace replaced with a Lennox G32V. The installation company didnt do a good job...had to have them back several times to get it right eg vent piping was too small a diameter; had them redo it. I forget what the basic warranty was but anyways I didnt want to deal with this HVAC company so for the past 3 years or so I had another company do the PM and the year to year parts and labour ext warrany on the furnace. I believe they must be bundled together ("TLC Plus"). So what are my options to have a parts and labour warranty on the G32V without getting the PM? Can I do it directly through Lennox for example? I would like to know my options. What do you recommend? Any Ontario contractors out there that can advise me specifically?

[Irascible]

Are you referring to this? (http://www.serviceexperts.ca/plus/plus.html) If so, that's not a warranty. That's marketing cleverly disguised as a service. :D That TLC program is a Service Experts invention with no direct connection to Lennox. Sure you'll get phony discounts and preferred service over regular customers (If I have a customer that's proven he'll fall for my tactics and another that just called in, I'd give the first one preference too!) but there's no warranty there.

If that's it and if you thought it was a warranty, don't feel bad. When I use to work for the man and did maintenance contracts, I had a lot of customers who thought the maintenance agreement was a warranty as well. The contractor says nothing that implies that it is. But they do nothing to clarify the matter either until it comes up. Usually it came up on a cold winter day when I told my customer that the repair would be $500. They'd say "But I'm on a maintenance agreement." And then I'd say, "Oh, in that case you get a 10% discount... so it'll be $450.". Lucky them. :rolleyes:

Service Experts... ah yes. The same clowns that have scripted literally every part of the service call for maximum manipulation; that tell their techs to suggest new equipment when ten year old furnaces blow their transformers; and that gladly sell you any form of popular snake oil (http://www.duct-cleaning.biz/) that they think you'll fall for. I love Service Experts.

A typical Lennox warranty would be one year on labor, five years on parts and 20 years or more on the heat exchanger. Your warranty may vary. Your owners manual will spell that out. And if you have an extended warranty you don't need anyone here to tell you that. You'll have a certificate that will be clearly labeled as such.

[simpleman]

Service agreement PROTECTS two ways.

Pays for unexpected repairs,if anyone assume a hvac contractor is getting rich off off maintence agreement,they need to think again.

The other is it assures optimum efficiency of your equipment.

And my favorite is..you like what we do for you year in and year out? Aint it nice to have a great company to call upon and know they will be there when you need them.

Is it not great that you know by purchasing service agreement that you have lock in a great service provider that will be there year in and year out when you need him.

Is it not great when you call the business you get a live voice that will have you check for certain things on your own before they send out a tech.

Is it not wonderful to know on a 95 degree day and everyone
is balls to the wall and your ac is out you dont have to hear it will be two weeks before they can get there.

Is it not a good thing knowing that some of your dollars went towards sending the tech to school to learn how to
trouble shoot the real problem,instead of the customary part
changer.

Is it not a good thing.........................

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible
Are you referring to this? (http://www.serviceexperts.ca/plus/plus.html) If so, that's not a warranty. That's marketing cleverly disguised as a service. :D That TLC program is a Service Experts invention with no direct connection to Lennox.


It is true that I have a TLC Plus agreement with a "Lennox authorized" dealer. This includes one PM for the furnace and AC in the one year period. In addition I have, with the same "Lennox authorized" dealer, a one year parts and labour warranty for the G32V.

What would you suggest I do to minimize my costs and still have a 'peace of mind' by haing an ext warranty for this expensive furnace?

[Irascible]

I still don't understand how or with whom you have this alleged extended warranty. Typically the installing contractor covers the first year of the labor warranty. Your parts warranty from Lennox comes with the furnace regardless of what contractor you're using and regardless of any maintenance schedule you have.

If you have an extended warranty then you'll have a paper that says as much! So what does that paper say?

[Waxer]

Last season I paid $90 CDN that covers parts and labour for my G32V....this agreement is with this particular Lennox dealer...one of the service experts ;). However as I recall I can only get this if I also get an annual inspection.

[Steve Wiggins]

I thought Ira was my hero, now I know he is! That does it. I am moving to California to work for "High Performance"

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by Waxer
if I also get an annual inspection.


Looks like you might have got an anal inspection. :D

[Irascible]

That's too funny Steve. I'm just saying what that rational half is thinking.

At the risk of jumping to conclusions Waxer, you don't have an extended warranty. Ninety bucks be they Canadian or American is barely enough to pay the expenses of the tune-up(s). And it wouldn't pay the expenses if they did a real tune-up. For that amount to cover an extended warranty as well would be virtually impossible.

But... I don't actually know. I'm not there.

Good luck.

[tinknocker service tech]

waxer
the G32v comes with a 5 years parts warrenti from the factorie. you can also when you purchase it get a five or ten year parts and labor warenti for an extra charge
we include it in the price of the job but some co. dont and charge extra. this is called complete care warrenti
now why you have to but a contract through this dealor every year cant say and why you do not have complete care from lenox on your system again cant say but maybe you should look into why

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible
At the risk of jumping to conclusions Waxer, you don't have an extended warranty. Ninety bucks be they Canadian or American is barely enough to pay the expenses of the tune-up(s). And it wouldn't pay the expenses if they did a real tune-up. For that amount to cover an extended warranty as well would be virtually impossible.


I am looking at my TLC Plus Agreement. I have what is called TLC Plus Tuneups and Warranty coverage. For $250 cdn I get one AC and one Furnace tuneup in one year and 1 year comprehensive parts and labour on the furnace. It looks like the tuneup price subsidizes the warranty cost and also because the furnace is less than 5 years old I guess the warranty need only pay for the labour component.

[Edited by Waxer on 06-04-2005 at 11:05 AM]

[Irascible]

That makes a little more sense.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
waxer
the G32v comes with a 5 years parts warrenti from the factorie. you can also when you purchase it get a five or ten year parts and labor warenti for an extra charge
we include it in the price of the job but some co. dont and charge extra. this is called complete care warrenti
now why you have to but a contract through this dealor every year cant say and why you do not have complete care from lenox on your system again cant say but maybe you should look into why


The year to year warranty and PMs is with a dealer who did *not* install the furnace. I was disappointed with the original installation so I went elsewhere for service. The furnace will be 5 years old this winter. What would be my best option in obtaining a longer term warranty without having to pay for PMs? I am north of Toronto? Any recommendations?

[Irascible]

Why not just live on the wild side and go without the warranty? Skip every other year of precious contract maintenance and in three years you'll have saved enough to have a brand new blower motor installed. In five years you'll have saved enough to have a new circuit board installed. In seven years you'll have saved enough for just about any repair. And in 9 years if you are lucky enough to not have had any repairs (which happens to many people) you'll have saved enough to take a nice three day weekend trip to some nearby vacation destination.

[Mr HVAC41]

QUOTE:

Don't you service agreement buyers understand that these companies are sending their top techs on commercial jobs and trouble calls while leaving the rookies to do the grunt pm work. Now think about it. How beneficial can that really be to the consumer?
----------------

WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE?! I AM A NEW TECH OF 7 MONTHS. I AM PRETTY DARN GOOD FROM WHAT MY 4 OTHER FELLOW TECHS SAY! I RODE WITH THEM TO CALLS FOR 5 MONTHS. I WON FIRST IN THE STATE OF OHIO HEATING AND AIR COMPETITION THROUGH THE MIAMI VALLEY CAREER TECH CENTER FROM WHICH I JUST GRADUATED! NOW, ALL OF US IN THE COMPANY DO ESA'S (PM) NOT JUST ME. I HAVE CUSTOMERS THAT ASK FOR ME. I THINK THAT THIS SAYS THAT THE YOUNGER GUYS (AND GIRLS AS THE CASE WOULD APPLY) ARE JUST AS DARN GOOD AS THE OLDER ONES!!! ESA'S HELP THE HOMEOWNERS INVESTMENT TO RUN CLEANER AND LONGER. PROBLEMS SUCH AS REFRIGERANT DEFFICIENCIES AND CRACKED FURNACE HEAT EXCHANGERS ARE FOUND. I SAVE MY CUSTOMERS $$$ IN THE LONG RUN AND GIVE THEM PIECE OF MIND. I LOVE MY JOB!! DONT DISS NEW TECHS! YOU WERE ONE AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER!!!

[tinknocker service tech]

every thing Irascible
says is true a real maintencance every two years is more then enough as far as i am concerned. to save on it do the furnace one year and the ac the next. if you are willing to do a little extra on your own like change the filter on a regular basis and hose off the condensor coil from time to time you will be solving a lot of later on problems
as far as warrenti if you had a five year complete care from lemox you can call them and extend it five more years
if you did not have it then they wont extend it
the unit is fairly new and should be farly trouble free so every other year an maintenance is fine

[Irascible]

Man... those greenhorns... Not only are they incompetent but they're real defensive about it too. LOL! :D

(Relax hvac41. I'm yanking your chain. Steve has been around the block a few [too many] times. What he says is very true of many, many companies. There are exceptions of course and I don't doubt that you're one of them. I was an exception myself at one time. Now people just take exception to me. But... whaddaya goin' to do? ;))

[dorrmann]

I think I'd be leary of a rookie being so defensive over someone saying that a tech with more experience may be better than him.

Relax a little buddy. There is always going to be someone better, smarter, and faster than you and I, and everyone else on this board. It IS a fact that most companies will send the good techs to the trouble and/or commercial service calls, while the rookies do the PM's. It just makes business sense. I was that rookie at one time, as was everyone else. We got the crap jobs. We had to earn our stripes.

[dash]

Lots of opinions ,on how often PM's should be done,and that's all,just opions.


Mine is once a year.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible
Why not just live on the wild side and go without the warranty? Skip every other year of precious contract maintenance and in three years you'll have saved enough to have a brand new blower motor installed.

I did skip the year after the install re a PM (of course I replaced the filter) but the next time I had a PM the flue collector box had cracked at the drain connection...so a new collector box was required :(.

[Steve Wiggins]

Mr.hvac41 all I can tell you is if the truth hurts wear it, and if not don't worry about it.

You know a 15.5 year old kid gets a learners permit to drive a car. They must be accompanied by a more experienced driver. They cannot drive alone. What a great learning environment this creates!

We should have the same thing with hvac techs. But the truth is we don't because its not cost effective. Its not cost effective because we can't charge enough. We can't charge enough because of too much illegal activity. THAT IS WHY I AM SO AGAINT PM'S.

[tinknocker service tech]

----------------

WHAT IS YOUR ISSUE?! I AM A NEW TECH OF 7 MONTHS. I AM PRETTY DARN GOOD FROM WHAT MY 4 OTHER FELLOW TECHS SAY! I RODE WITH THEM TO CALLS FOR 5 MONTHS. I WON FIRST IN THE STATE OF OHIO HEATING AND AIR COMPETITION THROUGH THE MIAMI VALLEY CAREER TECH CENTER FROM WHICH I JUST GRADUATED! NOW, ALL OF US IN THE COMPANY DO ESA'S (PM) NOT JUST ME. I HAVE CUSTOMERS THAT ASK FOR ME. I THINK THAT THIS SAYS THAT THE YOUNGER GUYS (AND GIRLS AS THE CASE WOULD APPLY) ARE JUST AS DARN GOOD AS THE OLDER ONES!!! ESA'S HELP THE HOMEOWNERS INVESTMENT TO RUN CLEANER AND LONGER. PROBLEMS SUCH AS REFRIGERANT DEFFICIENCIES AND CRACKED FURNACE HEAT EXCHANGERS ARE FOUND. I SAVE MY CUSTOMERS $$$ IN THE LONG RUN AND GIVE THEM PIECE OF MIND. I LOVE MY JOB!! DONT DISS NEW TECHS! YOU WERE ONE AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

wow you made your point quite well.
now settle down because as much as you dont like it the new guys do the pms till they prove themselves. this it how it is and how it has always been deal with it. as was said before no matter how good or great you think you may be there is someone better. as you go through many years in this trade as a lot of us have there is one thing you will find. you have to pay your dues and take your punches
one more thing after thirty two years and a lot of getting my but kicked i am still new to this trade and learning everyday. so take the skirt off and grow a nut. take it like a man is what i was told thirty years ago when i thought i was the best thing next to god oin this trade
and an old timer showed me up like i wasnt even there
dam i learned a lot from him

[aircooled53]

Originally posted by aircooled53

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
Waxers problem is typical of most. He called a company without requesting a person. Companies don't service equipment, people do.

Don't you service agreement buyers understand that these companies are sending their top techs on commercial jobs and trouble calls while leaving the rookies to do the grunt pm work. Now think about it. How beneficial can that really be to the consumer?

That's not always true , I do alot of P.M.'s and teach the new technicians the right way to completly check out the system.They fill out the
Model# Serial#
Pressures/amps
Condenser coil/clean/condition
condenser inlet/outlet /temps
superheat/sub-cooling
condensate area/main/secondary
blower voltage/amps/wheel alignment
Evaporator/condition/T.D.
Filter size/#
Ductwork/condition




Oh, just a follow up note the average savings of a clean well maintained unit is 13.6kw hr. of electricity per day.
With then average in Texas summer from April/September this comes to about 256.45 per season. Does every customer save that much,no but they do have a safe,clean well maintained system that will increase the life 5-7 years longer than one that is NOT maintained.

[dash]

Originally posted by aircooled53

Originally posted by aircooled53

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
Waxers problem is typical of most. He called a company without requesting a person. Companies don't service equipment, people do.

Don't you service agreement buyers understand that these companies are sending their top techs on commercial jobs and trouble calls while leaving the rookies to do the grunt pm work. Now think about it. How beneficial can that really be to the consumer?

That's not always true , I do alot of P.M.'s and teach the new technicians the right way to completly check out the system.They fill out the
Model# Serial#
Pressures/amps
Condenser coil/clean/condition
condenser inlet/outlet /temps
superheat/sub-cooling
condensate area/main/secondary
blower voltage/amps/wheel alignment
Evaporator/condition/T.D.
Filter size/#
Ductwork/condition




Oh, just a follow up note the average savings of a clean well maintained unit is 13.6kw hr. of electricity per day.
With then average in Texas summer from April/September this comes to about 256.45 per season. Does every customer save that much,no but they do have a safe,clean well maintained system that will increase the life 5-7 years longer than one that is NOT maintained.

What's the source ,of info., for the savings??

[Irascible]

Indeed. What's the source?

And did they test to see check differences between every year, every other year and every third year? Of course not. They and most propagandists engage in the logical fallacy of all or nothing. Comparing those who virtually never do maintenance to those that do it yearly produced an inevitable outcome. They saved energy? Shazam! Who'd a thunk it? But compare those that do it yearly to those that do it every second or third and you'd get a different story that would fly in the face of the hustlers.

[Irascible]

Originally posted by Waxer
I did skip the year after the install re a PM (of course I replaced the filter) but the next time I had a PM the flue collector box had cracked at the drain connection...so a new collector box was required :(.You're assuming that a PM would have prevented that. That's a very bad assumption.

[Waxer]

Originally posted by Irascible

Originally posted by Waxer
I did skip the year after the install re a PM (of course I replaced the filter) but the next time I had a PM the flue collector box had cracked at the drain connection...so a new collector box was required :(.You're assuming that a PM would have prevented that. That's a very bad assumption.

No I dont think that..I dont think I do anyways. But I mention it because this incident was the impetus to get the ext warranty.

[AllTemp]

http://www.alltemp-hvac.com/maintenance.jpg

[Irascible]

Most excellent. I never would have expected to see such an admission from an OEM.