Rate this change out

[curious1]

First, thanks all the help on this forum. Greatly appreciated.

Pulled the trigger on Carrier, Infinity 3 ton. 38tdb036, ck3bxa036, 58cva070, aprilaire media filter, uv light (not hooked up yet due to back order).

Hard to find contractor, got several bids and went with one that wasn't the lowest. Factory authorized outfit, which sounds good, but am not sure if it really means anything. Does it?

Any way, here are the pics, rip away:

http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9137_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_001.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9138_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_002.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9139_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_003.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9140_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_004.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9141_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_005.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9142_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_006.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9143_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_007.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9144_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_009.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9145_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_008.jpg
http://www.imagewiz.net/usr/hvac1/myac/9146_HVAC_Install_2nd_floor_010.jpg

[mo-flo]

well,....in the first picture somebodt needs to replace the switchcover and they need to wash their hands after playing in the mastic before they go outside and install the whip off the disconnect.....................na' just kiddin' looks good enough to me,how old is the install now?

[hackmaster]

I dont like the position of that flue pipe...I would have flipped it so it was on top side...also I would have put a trap in that condensate line. I do like the fact that they used mastic all over...might not look too perty but its surely a very sealed system. I dont see a float switch on that safety pan...I know they have it piped out but would still put a float switch on it.

[MadeinUSA]

You did say this was a Factory Authorized Dealer didn’t you?

To be a Carrier Factory Authorized Dealer you have to be Nate certified.

This is exactly why I would never get Nate certified, because we do not want to be associated with sorry workmanship and ignorant installs like this.

I guess they were just either to much in a hurry to get to the local beer joint, or they thought running more drain lines is cheaper than rerunning the copper.

That is a bi-directional air flow coil, and if they would have turned it 180 degrees, they would not have had to create drain lines that a third grader could have assembled better. They could have not had to fight with the flue pipe and the liquid line. Most importantly, if these HACKS would have known they could have flipped the coil 180 degrees, they would have had enough room to install the expansion valve that needs to be installed with your system. Being there is no room to install the expansion valve with the flue in the way, I guess they just decided to forgo this little step. Honestly, I don’t even think they know one should be installed. Now you will get the luxury of having your system blow up in the first year.

I won’t even get into the “fine” woodwork they used on the job, or shear lack of skills to create a professional installation.

Factory Authorized Dealer with NATE technicians. I believe I will pass.


[Edited by madeinusa on 06-01-2005 at 03:30 AM]

[airconman]

galvonized on gas line? no new disconnect? NATE I thought wanted them hung not laid. Why is the vent capped? eh it's in, it works they're outta there!!!! How do ya get in the unit if ya need in it with the gas line in front of the door?

[square2round]

That's pretty sloppy work.

The unit lacks a platform for it to sit on. That emergency drain will have a hard time draining with it just sitting on the plywood.

I don't see a p-trap.

Secondary drain not tied in.

There should have been a transition built from the unit to the Aprilaire.

The PVC is not insulated and it looks like it got burned right as it leaves the unit...or they reused some of the old pieces.

There is mastic all over the place...on the filter door, plywood, back and top of the unit.

I don't see a float switch.

[jdenyer]

I don't see caps on the access ports at the condensing unit:eek:

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

I'd be embarrassed by that slop.

[dash]

CFAD need to have 50% NATE techs,I've seen a lot worse installs,and don't find the need to comment on their NATE or lack of NATE certs.Nor does this job mean the NATE is good or bad,for the industry,those affraid of change will always ,be like this.


If you sell a certain brand ,are you "associated" with every install being done around the country?

Manufacturers try to raise the bar,NATE required,and get cheap shots taken at the program by a few disgrunteled ,naysayers,oh well that's life.


The excess mastic is not a problem,considering it's in the attic,how many have done an install in a >140° attic?

The service door may be able to be removed ,looks like gas line is several inches away,I can't tell from here.


The Aprilair,should have a transition to get the full use of the filter.

The flue might be able to be routed out the top,to avoid conflict,or reverse the coil as mentioned.

The TXv is very important,could it have been installed in the coil cabinet??

[Edited by dash on 06-01-2005 at 11:24 AM]

[Mr Bill]

Dash, I agree with all you said here very tactful explaination, and your right there are many folks certified in many different fields that do sloppy work,"I don't find that job above sloppy maybe just a few things I might have done different" I have a mechanic friend that is a prime example of someone that knows how but will not go to the trouble of doing it neatly he is sloppy and got ever certification in the mechanic field known to man. What curious1 probably did not know when he posted the pictures is that God could do a a/c install and we a/c guys would find a problem with something
you can bet, and I really have a issue with someone really critical I would like to be a fly on the rafter during all of their installs, like Dash siad it's a 140 degrees up there sometimes what do you that do the perfect installs wear a NASA cool suit piped with Gatorade? :D

[chilledcool]

Pictures do not tell the whole story. It is easy to criticize an install without knowing the environment the installers were working in.
There are a few things I would have done different and some things that I might have done different depending on what obstacles I encountered while doing the job.
The NATE cert has nothing to do with the install. It's all about personal pride.

[Shophound]

This is exactly why I would never get Nate certified, because we do not want to be associated with sorry workmanship and ignorant installs like this.


I am NATE certified, and I don't want to be associated with an install like that, either. And, it stands to reason, that unless I personally executed an install like that, my name would not be associated with it, NATE or no NATE.

As for the install itself, seems to me a transition on both sides of the air handler would be called for. How much of that evap coil isn't getting airflow?

No TXV on this Infinity system? Smells like trouble ahead.

Is that copper feeding the galvanized pipe and flex? I know there's debate either way about using copper for nat. gas, but I'm just not crazy about running a gas line through an attic where it could get punctured in some way. Give me black pipe any day.

I'm taking it the yellow gas flex goes through the furnace cabinet.

This job is WOS material.

[dash]

That's a "N" coil,and the filler plate is supplied with it,appears to be installed per mfrs. instructions.It's designed to be used with the filler plate.


Not saying that a transition would not be better,but it's per mfrs. instructions.

[Edited by dash on 06-01-2005 at 09:13 PM]

[chillbilly]

Not sure what NATE has to do with this thread at all.

Also note that meeting manufacturers requirements in many cases, is like meeting minimum standards (code)

The poster asked for a changeout rating.
All things considered, it's quite sloppy.

[curious1]

Thanks for the replies folks.

I thought this was somewhat sloppy work. This install was in an attic as mentioned and was very hot. Access is up a built-in ladder from the main attic floor. So this is very near the roof. Storm was coming so they were in a hurry to get things finished. They got behind schedule as they found the current line set was leaking and had to replace it. They had to run it up along the fireplace chase (fire place has a gas insert prefab shell and flue with a lot of room on either side of the flue, so they came up from crawl space through this to attic. Acceptable?

It was installed about 2 weeks ago.

There is a float switch, just didn't get it in the photos.

So the things of most concern are the TXv, galvanized pipe,
transition to filter and also to coil. The return plenum is couple of inches from the rafters, so wonder if there was room for a transition? Will the pan actually function as configured on the plywood, or will water just flow over as plywood flexes.

What do you see as the most important things to have adressed?


I would be happy to post more pics of anything if anyone wants more views or different views of anything.

Thanks guys.

[Mr Bill]

OK if you insist, I don't like the gas flex line running into the furnace should be a short piece of black pipe stubbed out of the furnace itself and then attach the flex line. I don't like the copper gas line either but in some states it's ok, They should have insulated the main drain line with rubbertex or armorflex or whatever, we always sit the condenser on a slab no matter what but that is just my personal preference. TXV I am guessing is in the coil box I don't use Carrier coils so I don't know just a guess, other than that the job is not that bad, does it live up to your expectations as for as the performance? I don't see a sloppy job there myself but I don't see a perfect one either kinda in between but that's just my opinion, we would probably do a little better on some things but there is room for improvement on just about everything in life, except JC himself he is pretty much good to go. :D

[bbk]

If it has a TXV (Must be inside the case?)it looks good to go,everything is sealed well,everything else is just looks and you don't have to look at it just the service tech every season.

[tim fox]

someone once said,on this board[don't remember whom],that you can bet some guy is ripping on one of your jobs right now.I'd have done some things different, but thats me.All in all it's not the worst I've seen.

[duct dr]

A transition should have been used between the furnace and coil, vent pipe should have been turned to exit the top of the furnace. Pressure treated wood is okay in drain pans, but I would have hung the coil with drive material. Flex gas line is fine to run to the furnace and meets code, but I dont like the copper feeding it. Take the cap off the primary drain, it won't drain properly with it on, but it doesn't need a "P" trap. I like the mastic although a little excessive. Where's the TXV?? Try using an SS1 safety switch in the primary drain wired to the low voltage, then you won't need a switch in the pan. What clearence do you have between the condensor and the walls, does'nt look like enough. Whether a person is NATE certified or not, jobs should be done RIGHT all the time. And yes, I am NATE certified.

[Irascible]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Not sure what NATE has to do with this thread at all.I'm no NATE apologist. But that's easy. It's the shallow thinker's scape goat for the trade's problems. Is your filter dirty? That damned NATE tech must not have installed it right. Did you blow a fuse? NATE must have recommended some crappy fuses. Stub your toe on the couch? That sinister looking NATE repair dude must have moved the furniture around when you weren't looking.

LOL! :D

[splitbolt]

Is that unit laying on top of wires?

[duct dr]

Originally posted by Irascible

Originally posted by chillbilly
Not sure what NATE has to do with this thread at all.I'm no NATE apologist. But that's easy. It's the shallow thinker's scape goat for the trade's problems. Is your filter dirty? That damned NATE tech must not have installed it right. Did you blow a fuse? NATE must have recommended some crappy fuses. Stub your toe on the couch? That sinister looking NATE repair dude must have moved the furniture around when you weren't looking.

LOL! :D


Think you could have posted that somewhere else. He wasn't asking peoples opinions of NATE, he was wanting opinions on the system. Yet someone HAS to ................nevermind. I take pride in my work and my certifications, enough said.

[Irascible]

You're right. I could have. But didn't. And by you unnecessarily commenting on an ostensibly unnecessary comment, you've drawn out the unnecessary conversation. :D

When I see such blissfully obtuse and never ending commentary from our "definite article challenged" friend madeinusa I can't help but comment.

[duct dr]

In that case............have a nice day.

[hackmaster]

As we all know that isnt a perfect install but come on guys...if you think thats a hack install yall need to come to my neck of the woods and I will take you around to some real hack installs but im sure youve seen them. Being a little over critical on the boys who put that in. There are a few mistakes but nothing really major and you guys know it. I would rather have a sloppy mastic job done than the crap tape I see all over the place around here. Not the best install but way far from the worse.

[prolinehtg]

Hey guys you ever have one of those days where nothing goes right or its in a hot attic or a tight crawl space and you just want to get out of there. I think this was one of those installs. I think we all have those days once in a while when your not on top of your game. I admit I sometimes have them usually its the little things that set me off like spending an hour and a half fishing a gas line over a finished basement ceiling. While I am struggling all I can think about is it would only take me five minutes if I busted out my claw hammer. As I get older I realize that someone is paying money for this system and no matter how bad the job is all I have to do is collect myself and just do it right. Cause we all know what happens when you rush the job. The customer will go back over the system to see what they are paying for and will find those shortcuts and guess what then your back where you started. But now its worse cause while your redoing it you can cuss yourself out for not doing it right. So I would say as a customer check it out if their are things you dont like about it call them back. Cause your the one that has to live with it not them.

[Jultzya]

Transitions between... Filter/furnace & furnace/coil.

Switch cover, move flu to top of unit, drain trap, drain clean-out, and I don't like the copper/gal or flex gas materials.

Now, for the main issue... CODE VIOLATION!!!!

Gas flex can NOT penetrate the cabinet through an UNPROTECTED knockout!!!

[Black Adder]

I know our local code will not allow a flex like that on a furnace at all, codes are different in other places and do allow it but I agree in no code are you allowed to run a flex through an unprotected knock out, if you are allowed to penetrate the furnace cabinet at all ( I seriously doubt it) As far as the install, while looking a little messy I am sure it is not the best or the worst I have ever seen (or done if the truth be told). I have done some pretty hacky installs myself when the working conditions are awful. ie: 2 foot crawlspace, small hot attics, we get into some pretty nasty dirt floor crawlspaces, fish a lot of runs with not a lot of hangers on them. So I surely can't be critical of someone elses work unless I see it being done at the time of install and under the conditions there.

[dash]

I think when the mfr. shows the coil to furnace ,installed with the "filler plate" they supply,exactly as the install picture is shown,we shouldn't be telling the homeowner this needs to be changed.