Building a new home

[bbcraig1984]

Hello everyone,

I am in the market for a new home near Pottsville, Pa 17901, and would like to have geothermal heat installed if it will keep the house comfortable. I plan on building the home and installing the system prior to 2016 while the 30% tax rebate is still in effect. This will help negate some of the initial cost and thus the payback will be sooner.

Other options I have considered is an air source heat pump with oil backup, the spreadsheet that is passed around dictates that oil at 3.299 per gallon is cheaper than electric resistance heat at .126/kw and propane at 2.50 per gallon as "back-up" heat. I do not see these prices coming down in the near future so I am just using current price as a base mark. I have no access to natural gas in the area I am building the home, so it is not an option. Having a wood burner is also an option but finding the time to cut and chop the wood can be tough atm with two growing children, but an option none the less.

This is the home I am considering building:

http://welbilthomes.net/Kingston2.php

and these are the home specifications:

http://welbilthomes.net/standard-specifications.php

There is plenty of information on this site, I have done many calculations with the information, but I would like to hear from someone who installs or has a unit installed near PA and is satisfied with its performance. It seems that the only posts regarding performance of these unit is when it is poor.

What size unit would you recommend based on the information that I have provided. What information should I expect from the builder? I have quite some time and would like to make an informed decision for whatever heating system I have installed.

If there is any other option that is cost effective and feels comfortable I am all ears.

Thank you for your time and I hope to get some useful information from the subject matter experts on this site.

Brandon

[George2]

Hello everyone,

I am in the market for a new home near Pottsville, Pa 17901, and would like to have geothermal heat installed if it will keep the house comfortable. I plan on building the home and installing the system prior to 2016 while the 30% tax rebate is still in effect. This will help negate some of the initial cost and thus the payback will be sooner.

Other options I have considered is an air source heat pump with oil backup, the spreadsheet that is passed around dictates that oil at 3.299 per gallon is cheaper than electric resistance heat at .126/kw and propane at 2.50 per gallon as "back-up" heat. I do not see these prices coming down in the near future so I am just using current price as a base mark. I have no access to natural gas in the area I am building the home, so it is not an option. Having a wood burner is also an option but finding the time to cut and chop the wood can be tough atm with two growing children, but an option none the less.

This is the home I am considering building:

http://welbilthomes.net/Kingston2.php

and these are the home specifications:

http://welbilthomes.net/standard-specifications.php

There is plenty of information on this site, I have done many calculations with the information, but I would like to hear from someone who installs or has a unit installed near PA and is satisfied with its performance. It seems that the only posts regarding performance of these unit is when it is poor.

What size unit would you recommend based on the information that I have provided. What information should I expect from the builder? I have quite some time and would like to make an informed decision for whatever heating system I have installed.

If there is any other option that is cost effective and feels comfortable I am all ears.

Thank you for your time and I hope to get some useful information from the subject matter experts on this site.

Brandon

Geothermal works great. But with any HVAC system you decide, it'll be up to a good installing contractor to get it to work correctly.

I get a lot of feedback from homeshow that I do and many complaints are about geothermal systems not heating the homes to the set temp.

Guess who gets the blame? Right, the manufacture.

I talked to a man that built his dream home. The HVAC contractor convinced him he knew his stuff.

After the system was installed, the homeowner couldn't heat his house when it got really cold. So he had a back up furnace installed.

When summer came, he couldn't A/C his 2nd floor. Not because of the geo system, but because of the ductwork.

I installed a third system (attic A/C) in his "new house".

The moral of this story is to fine a good HVAC contractor. It won't be easy.

If you have read many threads you'll know the the inspectors don't have your back.

[George2]

P. S.

I'm in a community that has (guessing) 30 HVAC "shops." Some very large, some very small and everything in between.

Some have been in business a long time (name only) and some that closed last year and are back with a new name this year.

If I were to build a home, I would be comfortable calling 3.

[bbcraig1984]

Thanks George. I plan to ask several questions prior to the installation regarding their choice of system and sizing. With the house being energy star rated i expect it to be pretty sound and heat loss minimal. I am also requesting the builder/installer to provide references. Is there anything else I can do to make the home more sound and comfortable?

[cdhand]

Brandon, Hi I have two waterfurnace systems. They are the best things that I have put in my house. They were installed three years ago and they have cut my total power bill by 40%. If you get these the most important thing is that you learn how they should be installed and pull up a seat and watch everything that the installers do. Truth is there is no room for a mistake. If they don"t do it right it will not work right. What I mean't to say is ( IF THEY DON'T DO IT RIGHT IT WILL NOT WORK RIGHT) You must be willing to inspect what you expect. The payoff will be worth it. Good luck, Curtis

[junkhound]

a. Read the ENTIRE jongig thread. 'my new geothermal system'



b. re, the comment: If you get these the most important thing is that you learn how they should be installed and pull up a seat and watch everything that the installers do.

Sounds like you expect any installer to be incompetent or to try to take shortcuts???

If you 'junior engineer' the job, better make sure your thermal FEA program and Mollier diagram skills are up to date. Almost sounds like a DIY recommendation? aka....'My dog watched me fix the car, had a few helpful suggestions.......like when to stop and feed him'

Read the ENTIRE jongig thread.

[RoBoTeq]

If you don't already have a contractor in mind, I have someone in mind in your area who is very good with their geothermal installs. My email address is in my profile, just click on my username.

[cdhand]

You read a lot into what I said, that I didn't say. I think most installers are good people. This board represents many of them. No DIY should ever try to install their own system. The bad installers and well diggers may be a small percentage but it is a major concern and the post on this board will prove it. A geothermal system is not cheap but it is one of the best investments a homeowner can make. If it is installed wrong it will not work and it will cost a lot to fix, not to mention it will put a black eye on your industry. Curtis

[matteo268]

I recommend Waterfurnace, and a IGSHPA certified installer.

[RoBoTeq]

I recommend Waterfurnace, and a IGSHPA certified installer.
Sound recommendation. WaterFurnace is now also being marketed by local distributors under the name GeoStar. It's the exact same equipment in a different skin with a few differences in the warranty purchase methods.

[bbcraig1984]

I will read the post in its entirety. I have requested information from the builder and they will be sending it asap. I will let you know what brand etc they are recommending. Thank you all for your input.

[notquiteamish63]

The new water fnc envision with the f+ evaporator coil is a very good choice. Their warranty is very good and if you need them their technical assistants are only a phone call away. We have installed many different brands over the last 25 years and feel that WF Envision is the top. Without counting, we have over 2000 geo systems installed, some in your area. Brian.

[farbeondriven]

The new water fnc envision with the f+ evaporator coil is a very good choice. Their warranty is very good and if you need them their technical assistants are only a phone call away. We have installed many different brands over the last 25 years and feel that WF Envision is the top. Without counting, we have over 2000 geo systems installed, some in your area. Brian.

i talked to a man that sold WF for years and switched to climate master because WF was getting out of control with complicated circut boards and controls mainly on the envision model, i guess. Any validity to that?

[notquiteamish63]

To Driven. The Envision models are actually much more simple than the 2 speed units that they replaced. There is just one contactor to run the compressor at the same speed all the time and an unloader valve that closes off a 30% bypass in the compressor whenever there is a call for high speed. As for the board getting more complicated, the board still looks just like it did 12 years ago and the setup switches have nearly the same functions. Water furnace is the only brand that I work with that has designed zoning to match the units outputs to the individual zones requirements. It is called intellizone. That has also been around for over ten years and still works the same.
No company is perfect, but water fnc has stood behind its product better than any other company I have worked with.
I also work on climatemaster and don't like their setup as much as wf. Clip this jumper for closed loop and put this jumper here for w2/w3. Set fan speeds with these dip switches for boost and aux heat etc,etc,etc.
Also, be on the lookout, Water Furnace is designing something new for this fall that should take geothermals to the next level. That is all for now.

[RoBoTeq]

The new water fnc envision with the f+ evaporator coil is a very good choice. Their warranty is very good and if you need them their technical assistants are only a phone call away. We have installed many different brands over the last 25 years and feel that WF Envision is the top. Without counting, we have over 2000 geo systems installed, some in your area. Brian.
You sound like you might work for a certain company on Kendig road. Get your application in for pro membership so you can see the rest of the site.

[mstrblstr3]

the new products WaterFurnace is unveiling this year will blow you away:cheers:
I just found out about the new Envision 2 with variable speed compressors and aurora controls that can integrate with home automation systems.
This stuff is cutting edge and performs at unrivaled levels of effiecancy.
I am definitly ordering mine as soon as it is officially realeased. Also they have a geothermal waterheater package that is half the cost of solar.
wow

[jongig]

Read my thread is good advice. Inspect and take pictures of everything and especially the wells and piping. I had pictures of the pipes in the ground installed without employing reverse return. I was lucky to find very good people on this site and that I am a licensed water operator with lots of knowledge of wells. I see that even now that local installers keep saying that 125-150 feet of well per ton and even 100 feet per ton. My geologist said it was over 200 feet per ton in my area. It's not the same for everyone and this is hard for most to understand. I hate the rule of thumb but I'd probably go with this rule of thumb, add a third more loop after all calculations are done. Unless you really have some smart people that know the earth beneath your feet. I keep thinking that one of these days I'll write a homeowners guide to geothermal and post it here but I just never get the time.

Having a father that was quite large builder I learned from him that oversight always saves money. I've advised many that before building a house you should hire someone to oversee or at least have someone daily taking pictures of every aspect of a home build.

[notquiteamish63]

You sound like you might work for a certain company on Kendig road. Get your application in for pro membership so you can see the rest of the site.

Maybe you should become a detective for the FBI in your spare time. Affirmative on the Kendig Rd question. I only found this site a few weeks ago. I am working on getting pro membership as I am interested in exploring the rest of this site and I enjoy helping others.

[RoBoTeq]

Maybe you should become a detective for the FBI in your spare time. Affirmative on the Kendig Rd question. I only found this site a few weeks ago. I am working on getting pro membership as I am interested in exploring the rest of this site and I enjoy helping others.
Send in the application for pro membership. You will have no problems. Most of the jobs in HVAC I have had over the years have been investigative jobs, and I just bought a house in Pequea a few miles from where you work.

[Bill Lee]

I'll second WaterFurnace's new products!!! I would sure like to get the new Envision variable to replace the Envision two stage in my office. I know that it would be a lot quieter. Even though the Envision two stage is out in the open for display, it doesn't make that much noise. With the new controls package that we saw, it will be very, very, very easy to monitor how the unit is performing all the time.

[Edapeman]

I am in the market for a geothermal system and just came across this great site. Just was wondering if anyone could tell me if the new line of WaterFurnace heat pumps are now on the market? From the sounds of the posts here, I maybe should consider holding off until they are released?

[SkyHeating]

I am in the market for a geothermal system and just came across this great site. Just was wondering if anyone could tell me if the new line of WaterFurnace heat pumps are now on the market? From the sounds of the posts here, I maybe should consider holding off until they are released?

The envision variable speed two stage is available now and has been... Are you making thinking about communicating inverter driven WaterFurnace units or maybe the in ground hyper loop product?

WaterFurnace "says" the inverter driven may be out early next year but a few months ago it was supposed to be released October... Maybe next year if we are lucky and it's supposed to be a bit higher in cost than a Synergy 3D unit.

[Edapeman]

the new products WaterFurnace is unveiling this year will blow you away:cheers:
I just found out about the new Envision 2 with variable speed compressors and aurora controls that can integrate with home automation systems.
This stuff is cutting edge and performs at unrivaled levels of effiecancy.
I am definitly ordering mine as soon as it is officially realeased. Also they have a geothermal waterheater package that is half the cost of solar.
wow

Thanks for the info - I am not sure what I was thinking of, I was referring to mstrblstr3's post above that alludes to a new line coming from WaterFurnace. I am new to this and am trying to do all the research I can before I make a decision who to go with.

My project is a retrofit into a 2000 sq ft farm house in Manitoba. I am looking at doing a horizontal loop as space is not an issue. I believe I would be looking at the Envision lineup as I do not need the radiant heat capabilities that the Synergy 3D offers. Unfortunately, I cannot wait much longer as I have to have the loop in before freeze up so only have about a month to work with. I suppose I could have the loop in and get the heat pump later but with the government incentives (in Manitoba it is approx 6 - 8K) my system needs to be installed by April 2012. Also, I am sure if I wait, any additional efficiency gained would be more than offset by the heating oil I would burn up waiting.

[SkyHeating]

Thanks for the info - I am not sure what I was thinking of, I was referring to mstrblstr3's post above that alludes to a new line coming from WaterFurnace. I am new to this and am trying to do all the research I can before I make a decision who to go with.

My project is a retrofit into a 2000 sq ft farm house in Manitoba. I am looking at doing a horizontal loop as space is not an issue. I believe I would be looking at the Envision lineup as I do not need the radiant heat capabilities that the Synergy 3D offers. Unfortunately, I cannot wait much longer as I have to have the loop in before freeze up so only have about a month to work with. I suppose I could have the loop in and get the heat pump later but with the government incentives (in Manitoba it is approx 6 - 8K) my system needs to be installed by April 2012. Also, I am sure if I wait, any additional efficiency gained would be more than offset by the heating oil I would burn up waiting.

Yes, he is alluding to the new invertor driven WaterFurnace unit, that will be nothing short of amazing... if it comes out which I think an April release is doubtful. Depending on your current heating costs, you may not see a huge difference between the invertor driven and Envision two stage, simply because the Envision two stage is already so efficient! I quoted a customer yesterday that had utility bills of $6,000 a year, mostly propane(about the cost of oil in many areas), with his geothermal it would bring his total utility bills to less than $2,400 a year(half of which is the geothermal).

So once you get to a $1,200 a year cost there is not a huge amount of savings potential left with an even more high efficiency system.

[bbcraig1984]

Thank you for your replies all. I believe the builder is pushing WF, so that sounds like a solid option. If I have anymore questions through the process I will be sure to ask. Many people on here seem very knowledgeable. Thanks again.