Hydroxyl Radicals

[cashcow]

I've been researching the Lennox Pure Air system. Accorded to Lennox product data the system produces "Hydroxyl Radicals" to purify the air.

Google "Hydroxyl Radicals" and you get opinions all over the board whether they are safe for you or not. Three eyed fish, etc...

I'm no chemist, but I've got to believe that Lennox wouldn't market a product that could be potentially dangerous.

Anyone have some good info on this?

[airman1]

lennox did a lot of testing before that unit came onboard ...

[teddy bear]

Originally posted by cashcow
I've been researching the Lennox Pure Air system. Accorded to Lennox product data the system produces "Hydroxyl Radicals" to purify the air.

Google "Hydroxyl Radicals" and you get opinions all over the board whether they are safe for you or not. Three eyed fish, etc...

I'm no chemist, but I've got to believe that Lennox wouldn't market a product that could be potentially dangerous.

Anyone have some good info on this?
As large organic molecules are broke down to co2 and h2o, "Hydroxyl Radicals" are an intermideate. Lennox's original presentation stated that 24 hour of constant operation would break down organic compounds to the equivalent of fresh. No mention of the lack of oxygen. This is a slow process. It is no substitute for fresh,filtered air and maintaining <50%RH to provide real indoor air quality. Great marketing!

[pstu]

I have a BA degree in Chemistry from long ago, and am really rusty on most of it. But if I remember correctly radicals are a very unstable form, and they will combine ASAP with something nearby to make a more stable form. In other words radicals would be threatening to human life if there were lots of them around, but there will NOT be lots around because each of them will become a molecule of something else in about a millisecond.

The old adage of "Everything In Moderation" will keep you out of trouble in so many areas, including chemistry. Most of the cases of poisoning involve violating this principle. You don't need to understand the science to follow this adage.

It seems the purpose of the Lennox system will be to change odor molecules into something else so they will not smell. I am not familiar with the safety testing, but am reasonably sure whatever Lennox has done, is enough to prove it safe for adults, children, babies and pets. If there is any Achilles' Heel it will probably be for babies -- not saying there is danger but babies are more sensitive at various stages of growth.

Is this any substitute for air exchange to dilute and remove pollutants? I am thinking the PureAir sounds good for odors but there may be some indoor pollutants which would be better vented outdoors, the sooner the better. But I have not studied the PureAir literature or any reports critical of it.

Interesting topic here. Perhaps I will learn from one of our board Mr. Wizards, or from a report, that I need to change my non-worried attitude. Whether it is cost-effective of course, is another question.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 05-15-2005 at 11:30 AM]

[strionair]

Oxygen ions are sometimes referred to as “reactive oxygen species” or “oxygen intermediaries”. Unlike ozone O3, oxygen ions are highly unstable and extremely short lived. They quickly react with other molecules or radicals to achieve a stable configuration.

Oxygen ions react with a variety of organic compounds including carbohydrates, proteins and lipids. This reaction is called oxidation--it's the same process that causes iron to rust an apples to brown. Given sufficienct exposure time, oxygen ions can transform organic compounts and destroy a number of cellular tissues, making them an effective germicide. The hydrogen peroxide you pour on a wound disinfects in this manner.

You can learn more about oxygen ions here: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/ROS

[syntropicsystems]

Hydroxyls have an extremely short lifespan - and are difficult to measure. EPA calls them "nature's scrubbers" because they react so quickly with VOCs. More easily measurable are single oxygen molecules, dual oxygen molecules, hydroperoxides, and ions. It's a brave new world of cold plasmas!
RGF Environmental released new photocatalytic technology 2 years ago that is an offshoot of the observations that NASA and their contractors had when researching into closed system air treatments. Remember, you can't bring in outside "fresh" air in space, and filters aren't very effective against microbials. They have posted information on their results - and a good explanation of the process.
Want to significantly reduce your chances of getting sick?
ASHRAE's standards were designed when full indoor air quality measurements weren't possible - and they don't apply in closed systems such as submarines or spaceships. Just because something's written in print doesn't mean we should ignore new findings from smarter people! Lennox didn't sell thousands of units to the Chinese government to combat SARS . . .

[TConnors]

Interesting topic for sure. Looks like ECO-Quest bought RGF Environmental, and ECO-Quest has all kinds of interesting "sounding" products that use "PHI" technology.

http://www.rgf.com/documents/PHI_article.pdf

Seems any one of the units place in the A/C return or in the supply plenum after the coil would "do it all" (get rid of odors, mold, bacteria, every chemical known to man)... why would anyone buy a UV light when they can get one of these gizmos? Just one of those "sounds too good to be true, so it's probably not" products...

My question is, is it really effective if air is blowing by at 1000 CFM? If not placed in or near the HVAC system "all" the house air isn't going through it, so is it really effective? UV doesn't kill anything unless it's within a few inches and exposed for enough time, is this product any different?

[syntropicsystems]

Photocatalytic Oxidation (PCO) doesn't rely on dwell time exposure of the virus or bacteria to the UV light activating the catalyst. It's breaking down the multiple oxygen molecules (o2 and o3) and water molecules (h2o)and recombining them. Bacteria, virus, and fungi (mold) are oxidized by the same actions in outdoor air. Just like our outside atmosphere gets mixed, or a cup of coffee with cream added to it gets mixed, eventually all of the air in the facility gets mixed. It's called Brownian motion.
Placing the RGF technology in the duct treats the ducts and the facility through recirculation, including reduction of mold and bacteria colony forming units on the coils before the air reaches the duct probe. It might take days for the plasma to flow through the entire facility, and additional time for it to work its "magic." Remember, these systems aren't putting out more than .02 ppm ozone or any other unfriendly chemicals. If you have a severe problem that needs immediate attention, you may have to use one of the commercial units designed for unoccuppied usage. They put out a high level of ozone as an additional "kicker" to the PCO reaction (a la EPA 1998 Handbook on Advanced Oxidation.)
Does it work? Bottom line = yes, and you can measure the effects using air sampling, surface sampling, etc. (or just your nose and allergic reaction and odor decrease.)

The technology is "scaleable" - so you can add probes (and reduce) to match contaminant levels (especially if you're dealing with high TVOC situations like smoke filled rooms.)
"Too good to be true?" So were personal computers, microwaves, and solar power. UV lights have been around for a while now, and Einstein identified light acting as a particle and a wave from its effect on metals (catalyst) over 100 years ago. Want to know more about PCO? visit http://www.syntropic.com/APO%20Research%20Articles.htm and take a look at some of the article links.

[TConnors]

I another thread you say: "I do not work for RGF Environmental", yet at your web site your email is ecoquest@syntropic.... Ecoquest being affiliated with RGF. I take it you sell Ecoquest products, and are certainly promoting them here. These products do appear at least as viable as UV lamps, and due to my inability to eliminate DSS, I believe I may try one.

Anything that has a 3 year life, that has no maintanence, and only has a $70-$90 relacement cell cost, seems to be a good value, if it really works, and isn't filling the house with something that causes lung cancer 10 years from now...

From what I've read the best place for these is in the supply duct. Wouldn't just before the coil be more helpful at eliminating any coil bacteria? Would one of the portable units placed in the return be effective, or would my Merv10 filter pull out all that "good stuff" coming from it?

[cob596]

The best unit I have seen is from Kesair ( kesair.com ). It uses UV light and titanium dioxide catalyst. It does not mount in the ducts. You just mount it inside the space ( they have sizes for single rooms or apartments, and larger for houses and commercial spaces.) They seem to have very impressive results, to go with a very impressive price.

[NHMoldInspector]

The reason the Ecoquest RCI cell is far more effective than anyone elses is for two reasons. It has 10x more surface space on the matrix than the PHI cell. Also there is a bonding issue with making TiO2 stick to the matrix and Ecoquest owns the patent to some system of doing so without the usual glue issues that hinder the oxidation process. I love the technology. There is no product on the market with the amount of matrix exposure as the DuctwoRx from Ecoquest...more matrix, means more reactions, plain and simple. However the light does still say RGF on it. Plus, there is a 30 day money back gar so try it, if you don't like it send it back...but you'll like it. It destroys odors...so this is not for the potpouri lover!

The PHI cell is still a wonderful unit, it just has less oxidation.

[syntropicsystems]

It's been awhile since I saw any posts on this thread - so I suppose updates are in order. With PCO it is a combination of the photocatalyst, the light energy activating the photocatalyst, the amount of photocatalyst, and the placement of the photocatalyst with respect to the light. I'm a commercial distributor that attended RGF training as well as multiple EcoQuest commercial trainings, and have probably read more about the physics than anyone else will ever want to know!
The photocatalyst breaks the molecular bonds of water and oxygen molecules using the light energy, turning them into various forms of oxygen. In the case of the RCI cell, most of any O3 (ozone) is broken down to the point where the cells emit less than .02 ppm = far less than atmospheric ground level ozone. Placement is based upon where you want the beneficial oxidation to take place. If you have mold in the ductworks, mounting these units upstream of the mold will eventually deactivate the surface mold, but you still have to deal with the fallout/particulate and the cause of the mold. Generally I recommend putting them in the plenum or the duct - and sizing them for the conditions. If you have a particularly bad environment/room, you may need to spot treat it using a Turbozone in an unoccupied mode.
Putting a cell upstream of a Merv 10 filter shouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind that reflected UV light should not deteriorate the filter, while any direct UV light will usually break the filter down rapidly.
The relatively recently published results are for surface microbials. Don't hesitate to continue using your MERV 7 prefilter and MERV 13 or 14 final filters to keep particulate levels down. The ionization effect of the RCI cells is small. Your level of recirculation, and how much you are controlling the air movement, will certainly influence your overall results.

[NHMoldInspector]

Syntrop, I am a dork and love the technology so I like to know...hehe

[genesis]

The reason the Ecoquest RCI cell is far more effective than anyone elses is for two reasons. It has 10x more surface space on the matrix than the PHI cell. Also there is a bonding issue with making TiO2 stick to the matrix and Ecoquest owns the patent to some system of doing so without the usual glue issues that hinder the oxidation process. I love the technology. There is no product on the market with the amount of matrix exposure as the DuctwoRx from Ecoquest...more matrix, means more reactions, plain and simple. However the light does still say RGF on it. Plus, there is a 30 day money back gar so try it, if you don't like it send it back...but you'll like it. It destroys odors...so this is not for the potpouri lover!

The PHI cell is still a wonderful unit, it just has less oxidation.
MOLDI you hit on the issue all the other manufactures have with TIO2 in the bonding issue. We solved that and pantented it over 6 years ago. As far as your comment(There is no product on the market with the amount of matrix exposure as the DuctwoRx from Ecoquest.) You are way off the mark on that one. I would say they have maybe 10&#37; of what we are doing and patented the process. And the TIO2 that is being used is the same stuff that alot of the other people are using that is 20 plus year old technology. Since the particulae size of TIO2 became Nano sized that is when the big jump in this technology occured. The bonding issue is what every one has such a problem with. And the only way to see if it is correct is to look at it under a electron microscope. You may get it to stick but you may cover a hundred percent of it up then the UV light has to burn it off to even activate it.

[NHMoldInspector]

Well, the claim to fame is the "alleged" solution to the bonding issue. I know that you are still doing sewage and turbohydrozones, and all that stuff but as far as PHI vs RCI goes, the RCI matrix has a lot more surface exposure. Quoted as 10 x more. The TiO2 Bonding issue and EQ's is why they say as far as they are concerned they have no competition, because everyone elses products are far less efficient. Maybe RGF is considered a part of the "US" when the statement was made and I took it wrong. Though they do market a lot of your products as their own, so that is one in the same. I am sure there is far more things RGF has their hands in and are pioneering, my statement was incorrect from a litteral stand point but as for residential PHI/RCI type technology I believe I am still right. As far as heavy industrial treatment I don't know what you are doing... Send me info I would love to know more. I don't post to be a jerk, I post because I love the technology. So if I say something wrong correct me and point me to a direction towards validating where I am wrong.

[NHMoldInspector]

Ok Genesis. You were right that I was mixed up. It is the 14" RCI has 10x the surface space on the matrix more than the PHI cell. So I was wrong, I said it was the 9" I also said that I figured logically that 10x the surface exposure meant 10x the oxidation and I was incorrect. The oxidation levels depends on humidity , airflow, etc amongst other things. In the exact same setting the with the same airflow, same humidity and all the variables the same the RCI cell does still produce a significantly larger ammount of oxidation than the PHI cell.
RCI is Certified Space technology, PHI isn't.
They both produce the exact same plasma, just different ammounts.
When Finch rolled out the RCI, now on video, he pointed out how much more surface space was on it's matrix.

You were right that RGF's process of bonding the TiO2 is good, and so is the method that EQ owns the trademarked process to....even the way the paint is made with the EQ version is different.

So I was a little off in my details but for price, value, and service the RCI is still on top. I have know about the PHI technology for a bit but I am just recently studying in depth. I have learned a lot in a short time, I wasn't excited about these products enough to study in depth until lately so I am sometimes off, so thank you for calling me on it.

[genesis]

I would love to send you some info on Photocatalysis but you have no contact info. Here are a few articles published by on of our engineers in Engineered Systems Magazine to look at.
http://www.automatedbuildings.com/news/apr06/articles/csg/060320110906csg.htm
http://www.topcasinolist.net/article/casino/1306.html
And this last one look on page three

http://commerce.senate.gov/pdf/gotcher-021506.pdf

[NHMoldInspector]

NHMoldInspector@aol.com

I haven't checked how to add that to my profile yet.

Thankx

or art.fontaine@gmail.com

[NHMoldInspector]

I read the first article and skimmed the second and read half of the third. I will print them out and read them in the morning. Judging by the picture I can't tell if there are 4lights running through the bar in the middle or 8 divided. Either way, it looks to me like the 4 strips still don't even make contact with as much TiO2 as if you unwrapped a single ductworx. The honeycomb shape offers maximum exposure from a single light and I would still be willing to bet the oxidation is higher since it goes all the way around the light. Though the filter seems like a semi good idea. I tend to team a ductworx and a Fresh Air together because of the unbelievable particulate dropping ability of the Fresh Air. They are meant to go together anyway. I will read the rest in the morning and will ask you any questions I might have. Thanks. I thought you were and RGF dealer... Do the lights have a polycoating on them in case of breakage?

[genesis]

We use both depending on the situation. We tested the honycombs years ago and found shadowing on the back half of the catalysis in panel configuations. More than 50 % of a 20x25X1 catalysis wasn't activated.

[NHMoldInspector]

Is the light right up against the TiO2 on yours? Was it on the Honeycomb test? The light is the same right 100nm-300nm? I definitly agree that it looks like it would be effective...I would be curious on the compared oxidation under the same conditions. With all the proprietary technologies and trademarked and patented processes it isn't as simple as TiO2 on a matrix, everything becomes a variable. It would be nice to just see a comparison by a 3rd party of all the products. Ductworx is TiO2, Silver, Copper, and Rhodium on the matrix and like I said there is no other UVA,B,C on TiO2 system Certified by the space foundation. And Might I add was the choice of the NextGen house in FL. So for at least two reasons it stands alone!

I am curious about different technologies though...I think in some situations the filters would definitly be a plus but I am not a fan of HEPA anything except on a Kirby Vacuum

[syntropicsystems]

Before you go making claims, you should really spend some time investigating their source. EcoQuest is a marketing organization that has previously focused on a non-sophisticated home market user.
First, their product is not the only one certified by the Space Foundation.
Second, the Space Foundation only certifies as to that the product uses technology that is an offshoot of what was identified by NASA - not the same as what NASA is using. The Space Foundation is a non-profit that relies on income from various sources, including their certification. Just because two products are certified doesn't mean that other products on the market don't use the same technology. They may even be using a mix of the same minerals, depending upon the broadness of the patents filed by RGF which EcoQuest licensed or purchased.
Third, the Japanese are actually credited with discovering many of the properties of Titanium Dioxide. There are different configurations that have scientifically been validated and released, not just in Japan and the U.S., but also in China and Europe. Run a Google search and you'll begin finding the dozens of articles that have been published.
Fourth, RGF and EcoQuest's testing has been very limited and not widely published. The results are very positive - and I advise you to review their dealer agreement, rules, and regulations on what you can claim and what you cannot claim. End users and installers should not expect miracles, as the systems vary in efficacy depending upon contaminant and conditioning.
If you are going to inform readers through your postings, tell them the truth and back it up. They are here to learn and make an informed decision.
Genesis makes products using PCO, and they have some specific applications and installation requirements. Same with Lennox, and I think Trane might have released some products by now.
The "guarantee" is dealer backed with Ductworx, not manufacturer backed!

[genesis]

I'm not being critical of RCIs technology out but here are the problems I have with the set up.
1The type of bulb they are using a UVX bulb which is a new term that has just shown up recently is to close to the X-Ray spectrum and I wouldn't want the liabilities of radiation leakage from that type of light. And definitely produces a quantity of Ozone and that band width. That bulb is more like what they call photo plasma
2 The lay out if you look at it with the honey comb with a single bulb in diagram http://www.ecoquestintl.com/customers/RCI_Technology.asp
only 4 honey combs on either side get total penetration of UV light. When UVC light reflects off of any surface other than polished aluminum or P2E its basic properties are gone.
3 The size of there cell can probably only accommodate 200 to 250 CFM. Now lets say you have a 1200 square foot house 8 foot ceiling thats 9600 cubic feet. How many of those RCI cells do you need to get at least 2 to 4 air changes an hour.
I have no doubt that in a single pass at a low air speed through one of those cells has an excellent removal rate but how practical is it if it is only treating a fraction of the air stream. And adding exotic metals to the catalysis raises the cost of the catalysis with not enough improvement in the air quality to justify the costs. And alot of the terms they use to describe the technology looks like a marketing guy got ahold of the final product. I would hate to go into a room full of engineers and explain all those new marketing science terms.
Its been a day hope you guys have fun with this.Its been a long day, I have been measureing UV light all day. Come see us at the ASHRAE Expo this year

[NHMoldInspector]

Genesis, I like your product and it looks promising, however as to your concerns of RCI I would only say that the spectrum is 100-300nm, which I thought was the same as yours and it is between UV and an xray however it gives off no penetrating radiation(it is RGF's light). There also is no direct exposure to the light which I agree would be harmful or at least potentially harmful if there was. When you look at the honeycomb on an angle it is completely lit up, the shape of the honeycomb allows for a direct exposure on the entire surface. All it would take s for the hole at the end of the honeycomb to be smaller than the point closest to the bulb and it is all direct exposure. It isn't a matter of air changes as much as if you were to bloa handfull of dust into the air they would be dispersed rap[idly and likewise even more so with the hydroxyls, hydroxy radicals, super oxides would be a consistant flow so the airspace would be full of them...since the supply never ends than the protection and effectiveness are always there. It doesn't have to suck the air through it to treat it. Look at how molecules are passed through the air...same principal...I don't see you objections as objections...I think you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Like I said, your product looks good but I don't think it is better, that doesn't mean I don't think it will work because I think it will...I will get back to you on this tomorrow. Thanks for the info though.

-nite