Tridium Frontend?

[lwarren]

Whats the good or bad word on Tridium frontends? What other web based frontends would be good for Lon?

[Edited by lwarren on 05-09-2005 at 07:00 PM]

[sysint]

ilon100 or Plexus. Haven't tried them out yet but have heard some nice stuff about inetSupervisor.

[jbrscot]

Tridium is the only real full package integration tool. It is expensive but it works. Plexus is on the way up but there is limited support for it now. There are other ways to accomplish the same task but you will have to put the tools together yourself. We have installed Tridium in many locations and it works great. We are currently proposing a Plexus system for a college. We'll see what happens with that...

[sean88]

I've designed and specified two Tridium systems. The first was for a local power companies office--it seemed to go ok. I wasn't real impressed with the controls contractor on the job, they had a hard time getting support from the Tridium dealer (so they say). I can see where it's a powerful web based tool. The one thing I wish I had done better was setting up the trend logs. The controls contractor said you could only trend one point at a time. I found out later, you could trend multiple points. Granted this was 3 yrs ago when Tridium was new to the market.

The second one was for a spec office building. It's under construction now. I hope to have better luck with the install now that there are a few more systems out there and they have some bugs worked out.

All in all I would recommend Tridium to the owner. Just make sure the mech/controls contractor has experience installing and operating the system.

[poochz]

Tridium isn't the only Web Based LON front-end.

There is the JCI NAE front-end using the ADX Server.
Through a combination of configurations, the ADX can display LON/BacNet/N2, and with OPC, NCMs and Unity, the ADX front-end can see practically any protocol on any device, current or legacy. The Web-based LON front-end is a fairly new requirement for most users, but then again, how many ONLY want LON? Usually it's a mix...

[amigo]

Hmmm, is this Tridium sales conference?
If you don't mind being locked into Tridium then go wild.
Otherwise, don't touch it.
All the money you dump into Jace boxes and their licenses, can be used to buy decent HMI package that is PC based with multiple drivers.
And watch out for Jace's performance, if you got some real binding and/or data flying around then start pouring some coffee for yourself.
If it is a simple network, then I can see some benefit.
Can't argue with the interface though, it is pretty sharp.

[coolh2o]

Tridium is an awesome front end. Expensive maybe but the product is very good. We have installed numerous sites and I like the product better with each installation. Tridium is also leading the pack as building connectivity continues to move towards an XML standard with the development of OBIX.

The future is so bright I have to wear shades!

[sysint]

... if another ilon comes out with:
a bit of app space a little more memory and routing capability Tridium will need to go back to the drawing board.

[nighttrain]

Isn't adding a bit of app space, a little more memory
and routing capability the very definition of going back to the drawing board?

[sysint]

Nope. Same platform. I think the JACE platform is too expensive, too proprietary, and the protectionism of the box I find is offensive. (once it's setup by original vendor)

If they add routing then you don't need to buy a 600 and a 100.

Opening up app space leaves the potential somebody will make a BACnet driver, but who cares - small part of the overall market.

It's already a 1000 point box. How many points in the small JACE?

[jbrscot]

How can you say it is proprietary? Who cares? The only issue is how proprietary the control systems are. Once you install the Tridium front-end (or any competitor for that matter), it doesn't matter. Tridium pulls in almost any open system, so long as a driver is available. The benefit is being able to add to an EMS with other EMS products after Tridium is installed. It may be expensive but it works and is a full package, no need to piece meal a system together.

[amigo]

Quick question for you:
What other software can configure a jace, besides JDE?

If I have an LNS database, I can think of a minimum of 10 different softwares from 10 different manufacturers that allow me to modify it any which way I want.

[jbrscot]

Well then it will come down to your client. Tridium is easy, that is why it is expensive. If you start mixing and matching then the client gets locked into the installer...

[amigo]

I see that this can go on for ever.
You like tridium, it does what you want, and your customer is happy whether he knows he is tied into Tridium or not, who cares.
I am cool with that.
But please don't tell me that a separate company other than the installer can be contracted by the customer to service his site, when this company does not have tridium software and is not an authorized dealer, does not have all the licenses, and so on and on.
This the fundamental difference between a proprietary gateway (jace) and LNS based infrastructure devices that can be maintained and serviced by multiple unrelated softwares, and multiple different companies.
And whoever says LNS and LNS plugins are not easy then in my opinion they have only dealt with simple newtworks and have not done a real integration project. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[sdfrench]

I've been using Tridium for 6 years and it is the best thing I have seen on the market (I have limited experience with Plexus, Escelon and some other integration tools). I do agree with the dissenters that it is very expensive (that is, it is labor intensive, the gear is price similarly to competition) and you must use Workplace Pro (Tridiums engineering package), but they sell the software to anyone willing to take the time to learn it and become certified (once again you have to pay to get the software and training), but then again I had to plunk down a chunk of change to get the Echelon starter kit and LNS software and training. I guess nothing is free.
It should be noted an owner isn't tied to a specific contractor; the owner has complete control over who is licensed on his product.

[lwarren]

Well, we got a preview of it today. Looks like it has some good features and great graphics. My first thought was this would be a great way to integrate an existing system that is TAC old CSI or even Trane Summit where the customer is sick of being locked into them.

The system has a learn function that would allow you to see the controllers and gather the points. But what are going to do when you have to replace an existing controller on one of these systems that is not an ASC controller. You are going to be in trouble without the config software.

As far as installing for a new system it seems pricy unless you have a speced system with more than one communicating protocal.

Although I would not be surprised if more manufacturers start using Tridium as there frontend software so they don't have to do R&D.

[sdfrench]

Originally posted by lwarren

The system has a learn function that would allow you to see the controllers and gather the points. But what are going to do when you have to replace an existing controller on one of these systems that is not an ASC controller. You are going to be in trouble without the config software.



When I integrate a system into Tridium and a proprietary controller fails, I replace it with a lon controller (specifically Honeywell lon). I sometimes have to run a comm. buss seemingly a long way for one controller, but what I am doing is slowly phasing in an open system. The owner is no longer stuck with the proprietary guys and he doesn't have to come up with $100K+ in one fiscal year.
The reason I use Honeywell Lon is that it is fully programmable within Tridium's engineering tool Workplace Pro - I am refering to the ASC's, the freely programmable XL15 and the extended I/O blocks. This is immensely beneficial since it can all be done remotely if necessary.
If you don't use Honeywell, you won't have the remote programming ability, but you can still use LNS to free yourself from another manufactures software and ultimately the grip they have on your throat - as much as I like BACnet, to my knowledge it does not have this feature and that is it's death knell in my mind.

[sysint]

....XL15 and LNS... hmmmm

Tridium doesn't use LNS - so no common database between manufacturers.
I can usually buy 3 times the server for the cost of Tridium. (and still be LNS.) Tridium is at least 2 "frameworks". Niagra and the underlying protocol it's using.

For much less cost you can use Fieldserver and LNS based componentry. I price it every time and always come out ahead against it. Not to say it doesn't have it's usefulness. I just can't do that to my customer. I'm trying to make things more simple, not more complicated.

Anyway, the Army Corps wants LNS so if you are doing A-Corp work Tridium is out.

[lwarren]

Sysinst-

What type of frontend do you use? Is it web based?

Thanks

[sdfrench]

Originally posted by amigo
Quick question for you:
What other software can configure a jace, besides JDE?

If I have an LNS database, I can think of a minimum of 10 different softwares from 10 different manufacturers that allow me to modify it any which way I want.

You have a valid question amigo and the answer right now is none that won't get you sued by Tridium. Even though I really like the platform that is an issue that has always bothered me. Fortunately, the platform is developed in JAVA and has an open design, so it has the potential to be completely open if Tridium were to allow it. It has only been the last 5 years that owners and engineers have seriously started demanding open systems and forced companies to move away from the proprietary, so this could be seen as an intermediary step. Hopefully, the next step is to force companies like Tridium (and even echelon, though their hooks are seen more on the developers end, not the user end) to become completely open.

[sysint]

Originally posted by lwarren
Sysinst-
What type of frontend do you use? Is it web based?
Thanks

I typically use Circon VI and for web utilize ilon100's and our own design .... of which I have a demo...

[sysint]

SD- I think you will see oBIX push Tridium open. Even though it seems Tridium is potentially "over-influential" with it.

Make no mistake, however, Tridium is definitely NOT an open platform. (framework) It potentially pulls together multiple protocols into it's proprietary framework.

Plexus has them beat at open as at least they use LNS.

[sdfrench]

sysint - I really like the Tridium system and it works well for me, but I am not a die-hard that thinks it is the end-all. I agree that Tridium is not truly open, but I will argue that the framework will allow it if they get the right incentive (owners refusing to buy without it sounds like a good one). But they are a private for-profit company; they are in business to make money and will use their hooks when they can. Echelon too, is a private for-profit company that is in business to make money. They too have hooks such as charging royalties to vendors on a per installed node basis for use of their LNS database (supposedly this is why Tridium developed their own). I also believe I have go through Echelon if I want a Lon router or Lon packet sniffer etc... (please let me know if I am wrong, I would like to know). I don't have a problem with Lon, in fact it is a rock solid protocol that has a really decent tool kit to build its networks, but I don't consider things truly open until they are in the public domain. Quite frankly, I wish ASHRAE would put more backbone into BACnet and force a tighter standard.

[sysint]

Even paying LON royalties it is still more inexpensive than BACnet installations. Additionally, those royalties also go back to continuing development of the communication structure.

Which is why it works so much better than BACnet. BACnet is a joke. BTL is a joke. Look at the latest CSE mag post.... The BACnetter's can't even guarantee that 2 BTL devices will interoperate.. (read the fine print) How laughable is that? They are still trying to get device level communication working consistently. Again, read the CSE mag article and concentrate on what everyone actually is saying.

Even so, you can buy Non-Neuron devices (not echelon), and yes, you can buy lon routers and sniffers elsewhere. -Actually, I'd encourage you to investigate and buy some Loytec products (www.loytec.com) It's my guess you will be seeing some Loytec hardware in the JACE soon.

Echelon is an open standard. You do not need Echelon to implement a LON solution. Loytec has their own chipset and I use their products in a LNS environment all the time. The question you should ask yourself is why can't you use an ilon100 or Plexus with Tridium? (I have used Plexus and ilon's together)

Echelon has ANSI, IEEE, and soon ISO.

EDIT: - Don't cut the ilon100 short. You would have to assume that they will have some really nice updates soon. <read>

[Edited by sysint on 05-28-2005 at 08:41 AM]

[crab master]

Correct me if I am wrong but there is a lot of arguing here over "front ends" and until their is SNVT's for time scheduling and alarm handling it is going to be pretty tough to get away from a "proprietary" type front end.
The best I/we can do is install lon stamped devices throughout the network and then put in our "proprietary" front ends and if the customer no longer likes our service at least they only have to get another front end if they want another contractor.

[sysint]

There are SNVT's for scheduling and alarm handling.

Additionally, (at least) in an ilon 100 you can simply make a variable to fit someones non-standard alarm or occupancy variable.

EDIT- Here is the function profiles also. Schedule/Alarm Profiles (http://www.lonmark.org/products/fprofile.htm#management)

[Edited by sysint on 05-30-2005 at 10:30 AM]

[keyser_soze]

Does anyone know of a manufacturer that implements the scheduler profile?

I would think that Echelon would be all over it, and make it available in the iLon100.

Especially given that they wrote it.

[sysint]

Where does it say that Echelon is the sole draftee of the Scheduler profile? - I missed that.

[keyser_soze]

Are you a LonMark member? If so, you would have been able to track the progress of the profile through the forums.

If not, you should probably get with the program.

Especially when LonMark starts to certify system integrators.

[nikko]

Echelon (Rich Blomseth) was the orignal draftee of the Scheduler Profile. The profile went through close to two years of debate with input from (in addition to Echelon):

-Trane (manf.)
-ARAS Systems (Integrator)
-Circon (manf.)
-Invensys (manf.)
-TAC (manf.)
-Johson Controls (Manf.)
-Control Tech (Integrator)
-Siemens (manf.)
-Holaday Parks (Integrator)

This list does not include the firms represented on the LonMark board of Directors; each of whom had input as well and each of whom who voted to acept the profile after a mandated review period. The profile was adopted in late March 0f 2003.

Nikko

[sysint]

Thanks for the direct reply Nikko - apparently someone else is busy "grinding the axe" and can't respond to any direct questions.

[keyser_soze]

Assuming sysint's response was directed at me, I believe my direct question was:

"Does anyone know of a manufacturer that implements the scheduler profile?"

[sysint]

... just get to the point of your problems first.

There are a bunch of ways to implement occupancy, scheduled events or both. Typically, you don't need to pass those schedules around supervisory controllers (this is LON not BACnet)and it's easy to figure out where to look and what's going on.

I could implement the scheduler profile in an ilon100 - only I would have absolutely no reason to do so. (Give it a little time and maybe you can too.) Especially when I can pick the scheduler interface I like and assign outputs as I want.

That's called flexibility. Any number of "front ends" can schedule devices. Or, devices can schedule other devices. Freely accessible on a LNS network. No proprietary frameworks needed.

[crab master]

Sysint,
Man do I feel behind - oh well been busy but that is awesum that has been taken care of by snvt's (alarms and scheduling).

[keyser_soze]

I was not asking if any manufacturer implemented any old scheduler profile (I am sure lots do).

I want the LonMark approved, all singing, all dancing scheduling profile.

Its been out for over two years, so I want my choice of commodity schedulers, just like I get for VAVs, RTUs, etc.

Which is why I asked if Echelon implemented this LonMark approved profile, as I would assume that Echelon would be showing leadership in this area.

[sysint]

Lonmark is an independant organization.

Can't have it both ways with Echelon. Fine if you don't like them, instead of bouncing back and forth maybe be a little more consistent next time in your reasoning.

Again, if you spend much time in the industry you realize that companies like M-soft really don't give a rats bottom about SNVT's or BIBBs.... Just how they are using Outlook to interface a schedule to the meeting room and the HVAC with them... They appreciate XML, SOAP, and AJAX. (the new buzzword on an old combination)

Maybe BACnet is the place for you. You seem to really go for those supervisory-type controllers running headfirst into the enterprise.

[homebrewny]

My two cents here for what its worth.

I've been setting up, installing, programming, migrating, generating graphics and maintaining the Tridium line since it came out pretty much.

I have to say the product is only as good as the person that sets it up is. Ive seen jobs with identical controllers, hardware, graphics, ect.......and one could be as stable and smooth as a baby's bottom and the other can be as ugly as ugly can be.

My opinion...its a fantastic product, but unless its set up and programmed correctly for you, you may not have the same opinion.

[theintegrator]

I've been programming and installing Tridium systems for 3 years, and have over 150 jobs under the belt, and it has been a really great system for us and our customers. I've done bacnet, modbus, Carrier CCN, and dozens of lon vendor integrations. Tridium also has their configurable serial driver, which allows you to write your own driver for systems that have rs-485 or rs-232 communications, and don't have existing drivers. The data logging is pretty good, and as long as you are not writing a custom program that requires any sort of timing function (delays) it is very easy to work with.
Every job our shop is doing has gone Tridium, and we have not had any complaints yet. A lot of it has to do with training, there are some other integrators in our area that have done some ugly installs, and we have been able to go in and get them up and running. I would definately recommend it. Lon based systems may not be around forever, don't put too much stock in any one system...

[sysint]

Originally posted by theintegrator
Lon based systems may not be around forever, don't put too much stock in any one system... Same goes for some proprietary "framework" when you have so many web standards out there right now.

[crab master]

The old thread awakes

Sysint - I realized I meant to ask you last time but -

"I typically use Circon VI and for web utilize ilon100's and our own design .... of which I have a demo..."

Can I get the web address to see your demo?

[sysint]

Look at our site and click demo.

We are in the process of upgrading/testing to e3 right now, so no active nodes at the moment and you are stuck with IE.

However, the secondary page is actually a template. (click on the temp, click on the Viewer)Dropping a Temperature control onscreen gets you the next two steps automatically.

[aljaeger]

I have worked for both a Niagara dealer and an Automated Logic dealer.
The difference is substantial. True web pages, no client software and better pricing for Automated Logic.
I have guys working for me who have tried to program both. They all agree that programming Lon is like getting your tooth pulled.
Automated Logic can integrate over 200 systems and products including LON, Bacnet, Modbus and propriatary systems.
Automated Logic is truely distributed as all trends, alarms and controls are stored on the controlers, not on the Jace.

[jimmyj]

That may be true, but what about all those batteries!!!!

[amigo]

yeah, and how do I recover the database/or even the programming from a node/network if I don't have it?

I do agree that ALC frontend and its capabilities are 2nd to none. But constraining.

[sysint]

ALC's LON integration is stone-age.

[lwarren]

Originally posted by sysint
ALC's LON integration is stone-age.

I agree. We have some units that are using an ALC gateway and an slta adapter for the Lon interface. This stuff did not work for 6 months until Honeywell finally flew down and figured out Automated logics problem for them.