Seeking heat pump replacement feedback: York v Trane v Lennox

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Hi everyone,
We're looking to replace a 12-year-old Johnson Controls electric heat pump that has malfunctioned due to a coolant valve failure. We're currently on emergency heat. Located in Pennsylvania.
I contacted three local family-owned HVAC contractors that have been in business for decades and have good customer ratings. But I'm no HVAC expert.
Any thoughts on the relative merits of York, Trane and Lennox?

I got these proposals, a few hundred dollars apart:

1: York 3.5 ton XL series heat pump model YHJF.
w comparably-sized variable speed Affinity series air handler.
2: Trane XB14-036 3 ton heat pump with Trane 4TEE3F40B variable speed air handler.
3: Lennox XP_14 3 ton heat pump with compatible Lennox variable-speed air handler.

Contractor 1 recommended 3.5-ton based on size and layout of house. Same contractor also declined to offer two-stage heat pump option because single set of ductwork and duct work configuration would result in poor upstairs cooling during the summer. Said he has seen this in other similarly configured homes. Contractors two and three did offer two-stage cooling options, taking the outside unit up a notch in SEER rating, but adding a couple thousand dollars to the price. Contractor 2 also threw in a wildcard: A Whirlpool ultra-high efficiency 18 SEER option: WGHP48036 at about the same price as the upgraded 2-stage cooling Trane system because of incentives. All carry 10 year parts and compressor warranty. Contractor two offering 10 years labor on upgraded systems, 2 years on basic one-stage unit. Others offering two years labor.
So:
Should I stick with single stage cooling heat pump?
If dual stage cooling is an option, is it worth spending a couple thousand dollars more to get it?
Should I even bother to consider the Whirlpool?

[seatonheating]

Did any of them mention heat loss/gain analysis? If not they are cutting corners and at that point it doesn't matter what they offer.

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Contractors one and two said they performed heat loss/gain analysis.

[seatonheating]

Contractors one and two said they performed heat loss/gain analysis.


Tell me how they did it.

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They didn't do anything complicated or involved like a blower-door test. Both were at the house for about 20-30 minutes or so, but I'm not sure exactly what they did. I was home for one, and my wife was there for the other.

[tigerdunes]

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get the load calc in writing! on the software letterhead. based on your previous post, you did not get a professionally performed load calc.

what size do you have now and how did it perform?

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant.

I would not purchase a new HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost especially for your location/winter climate.

In most cases, the upgrade to a two stg HP is not worth the cost difference vs marginal improvement in comfort and cost savings.

IMO

[seatonheating]

They didn't do anything complicated or involved like a blower-door test. Both were at the house for about 20-30 minutes or so, but I'm not sure exactly what they did. I was home for one, and my wife was there for the other.


There is your problem right there. Both decision makers should be present whenever you have an HVAC professional in your home. This would've eliminated all of these questions you have. Shame on them for not insisting it.

[tigerdunes]

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I would want to see the AHRI HP Directory matching performance/efficiency numbers for each system you are considering.

IMO

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Tigerdunes and Seaton:
Thanks for the advice. The York bid comes with many of the options you [tigerdunes] recommend. I have to check out the heating strips. I'll go back to the other two bidders to get answers to your questions and ask for the load calculations. Our current system is 3 ton HP, 4 ton Air handler.

[tigerdunes]

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so how has the three ton HP condenser performed?

how are the insulation qualities of your home?

has ductwork been examined?

has the York dealer even mentioned that ductwork might require modification by going up in size?

start off by insisting on a load calculation especially from York dealer who recommends increase in size. load calc should be in writing and generally takes 1-2 hrs to correctly perform depending on home.

IMO

[Proscribe]

The 3-ton has been OK, with upstairs rooms warm in summer and signficantly cooler in winter.
It sounds like all three short-cutted the heat gain/loss test.
BTW: All three are authorized dealers for the brands they represent.

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Also: Home was built in 1988, and at the time was part of an energy -fficient construction program that included dual pane anderson windows and fairly heavy insulation for that time. Fiberglass-insulated floor over the basement, for example, and fully insulated attic. Not sure what the R-rating is. Windows probably need to be replaced soon.
Contractors have looked at duct work. York dealer seems pretty familiar with the layout based on installation of systems in other homes in our development.

[garya505]

BTW: All three are authorized dealers for the brands they represent.
That doesn't mean crap. I just recently got rid of an authorized dealer half way through the job because of the poor quality of work they were doing.

[seatonheating]

That doesn't mean crap. I just recently got rid of an authorized dealer half way through the job because of the poor quality of work they were doing.


Authorized = Thanks for your payment.

[pd07]

Proscribe- If the contractor does not do the load calc at your residence make sure he measures all windows(skylights), rooms square footage, ceiling heights, wall, floor and ceiling insulation. Make sure he pokes his head up into the attic. And determines which direction your house faces. Ie: north side, south side.....And get a print out of his final analysis.

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I really appreciate everyone's advice.
After double checking, I was wrong about the size of the existing unit.
It's 3.5 ton.
Contractor one says he did not do a load calculation, but that he's familiar with the layout of the home from doing other jobs in the neighborhood. He said he measured the ductwork and returns and determined they are sized for 3.5 ton.

[seatonheating]

I really appreciate everyone's advice.
After double checking, I was wrong about the size of the existing unit.
It's 3.5 ton.
Contractor one says he did not do a load calculation, but that he's familiar with the layout of the home from doing other jobs in the neighborhood. He said he measured the ductwork and returns and determined they are sized for 3.5 ton.


You don't size the system to the ductwork. You size the system to the home and then make the necessary duct changes. And about his comment about knowing the layout of the homes? You could set 2 identical "looking" homes next to each other and there will still be load and ducting differences. He is lazy and cutting corners, no doubt about it.

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Contractor two--the Trane guy--is going to fax me his load calculation sheet tomorrow morning.

[seatonheating]

Contractor two--the Trane guy--is going to fax me his load calculation sheet tomorrow morning.


Feel free to post it or you can email me it for instant dissection :).

[catmanacman]

I would go 2stage with a zone control 1 zone upstairs 1 zone downstairs if possible

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Catmanacman: That would be the optimum solution, but the house only has one duct network. Wouldn't you need to separate the upstairs and downstairs ducts to create a two-zoned system?
It seems like that would add to the cost. I'm not sure the current difference in comfort level is enough to justify the added expense. I kind of which the architect who designed the house would have thought of that though when he spec-ed out the HVAC layout.

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With the prices for all three systems roughly equivalent, and no indication any of my vedors plan to re-work their proposals, what are the potential downsides to having an oversized or undersized system?
Undersized seems obvious: it won't be able to heat or cool the house adequately and will have to expend more energy in the effort.
What about oversized?

[rickboggs]

Low latent (humidity) removal.

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Thanks rickboggs, good to know.