Silverbrite 95/5 or Staybrite 6?

[oilman52]

Which solder is stronger?

[546kerry]

I dont know but I was just led to a web sight becouse of a brazing question It has some good information in it
http://www.jwharris.com Iam pritty sure that was it.Good luck
>Kerry

[rdhussmann]

Staybrite 8 is stronger and better.

[casturbo]

So if using Stay-brite is stronger and cleaner than a brazed joint, why in the world would anyone braze together residential A/C systems? Obviously, some local codes probably specify brazed joints, but it seems counter-productive in doing so. Reason I'm pressing the issue is my 3 ton split system is going in very soon and I need to know.

[pecmsg]

I have worked on systems where 95/5 was used, at the time system was 35 years old and still tight, but dont recommend it today. We use 15% on copper. No cleaning or fluxing needed if copper is clean. I still use Stay-Brite 8 on my drier connections. No paint burning and rusting down the road.
On 2 jobs I used Stay-Brite 8 on R-410A. Here come the comments, DO NOT USE WITH 410A. Both jobs my personel homes, My equ not customers. So far so good.
If joints are exposed then Stay-Brite 8 Its looks better.
If joints covered 15% it's faster.

[rdhussmann]

95/5 and Staybrite 8 are both soft solders. Of the two soft solders, Staybrite is stronger and better for filling loose fittings.

Brazing is stronger than both. Staybrite is not stronger than your average brazing alloy and melts at a much lower temperature.

There are many reasons people use Staybrite. Staybrite requires less heat and will not damage ball valves, txv's etc.. Staybrite will not oxidize the inside of a tube and cause dirt and acid in a refrigeration system. Staybrite can be soldered with a cheap hand held torch, which is easier to transport and to use. Staybrite temperatures do not anneal hard copper tubing. Staybrite, if your good, is a much more attractive joint if you are building something that you want to look good. Staybrite helps me to avoid the use of a nitrogen purge. That means I don't have to carry nitrogen all of the time.

I would stay away from using Staybrite on discharge lines, especailly on a large system that runs a hot discharge line temperature. I would stay away from Staybrite where there is excessive vibration. I personally would never use Staybrite on any system that is running R410a refrigerant. I use it on cup to fit connections only. Don't use it to solder a shrader access into any line on a refrigeration system.

[i b cool]

There is no reason to use anything but 15% brazing on refer lines unless, like pecmsg said, overheating is an issue but that can usually be prevented by rapping with a wet rag.It kills me when i see soft solder on refer lines.

[rdhussmann]

Originally posted by i b cool
There is no reason to use anything but 15% brazing on refer lines unless, like pecmsg said, overheating is an issue but that can usually be prevented by rapping with a wet rag.It kills me when i see soft solder on refer lines.

Hey Oilman52


I B COOL has a very popular opinion. I personally would never make such a broad statement, because I don't know everything about every refrigeration system and every application. Making broad statements is a good way to minimize your credibility.

I know a lot of reasons where 15% should not be used on refrigeration lines. I personally use at least 35% when I braze a copper fitting into a steel cup on a receiver, compressor service valve, or an accumulator. I always use at least 45% when soldering copper to a zink plated, or stainless steel plate heat exchanger.

I use Alsolder 500 when connecting a copper tube to an aluminum evaporator. I'm no expert, but I don't think 15% silver brazing alloys would work on some of these applications.

In fact 15% would be strongly discouraged in many refrigeration applications. I gaurantee that you would void the warrenty from a lot of manufacturers if you used 15% on every refrigeration line connection in the world.

I'm not saying he is wrong, but if he uses 15% to braze every type of refrigeration line in the world, then you can definitely use Staybrite on copper and take his very narrow opinion with a grain of salt.

Sporlan actually recommends the use of high silver content soft solder for many of their expansion valves and other products. Read the bulletin closely next time you open a Sporlan TXV.

Here is what the company says about it. Make your own decision.

Stay-Brite Silver Bearing Solders
Versatile Stay-Brite silver-bearing solders are used throughout industry as a better-than-brazing method in many instances.

The important advantage of Stay-Brite solders is the greater strength of the overall component after joining. Their lower working temperatures eliminate the weakening of the base metals caused by annealment from high brazing heat.

Stay-Brite silver-bearing solders have the same excellent affinity as Stay-Silv and Safety-Silv to bond with all the ferrous and non-ferrous alloys (including stainless steel, nickel, copper, brass, etc.). Stay-Brite joints exhibit considerably higher-than-necessary elongation for sound dissimilar metal joints and vibration applications. Stay-Brite alloys range in temperature from 430°F to 535°F.

Stay-Brite offers these important advantages over silver brazing:
Lower material cost - up to 3 times
Lower temperature - up to 3 times
Faster production - up to 4 times
Faster post cleaning, little metal discoloration.
Elimination of base metal distortion.
Elimination of base metal annealment
Elimination of oxide scale formed by heat.
Cadmium-free - non-toxic.
Lead free
Acceptance by The National Sanitation Foundation
Stay-Brite has been used for over thirty years to join refrigeration/air conditioning tubing. This alloy has been used to fabricate millions of strong, leakproof joints. Stay-Brite connections are excellent for many HVAC applications.

[oilman52]

A lot of different opinions out there. I read a manual today on the 2.5 ton condenser and it said to braze. So braze I will!

[i b cool]

I never said I would use it "in every refrigeration system" I was referring to (casturbo's post)A residential system.Why would u attack me for stating my opinion on a web site that has lots of posts that are opinion.Oh and nobody asked u if u would make such a strong statment.Also I have no reason to give a rats a$$ about my credibility on this website.Just having fun and putting my opinion out there to see what other mechanics think.I learn stuff of of this website all the time, like in ur post u said u r no expert.

[dna]

you better be purging nitrogen while brazing or your just another hack !!

[Edmund Forsthe]

my boss must be a hack then because he wont spring for a nitrogen tank and i sure wont use my own personal tank

[oil lp man]

I would rather braze than worry about bee bees floating around in the system.
In a boiler system not a huge problem. In a refrigeration system, big problem.

[jpb2]

Imho, no nitro no braze. i have several hundrerd stay brite systems in. Never a problem with orfice or txv clogs. can not say that for a non nitrogen "burned in" system.Iwill say that i agree with the mfgr. braze and purge is best, just see little nitro drifting here

[rdhussmann]

Originally posted by i b cool
There is no reason to use anything but 15% brazing on refer lines unless, like pecmsg said, overheating is an issue but that can usually be prevented by rapping with a wet rag.It kills me when i see soft solder on refer lines.

You are not helping people if you make those broad statements. There are refrigeration applications that demand lower soldering temperatures.

The original question I responded to was asking which solder was stronger. I stated facts about my experience and told the guy to make his own decision based on the application.

[rdhussmann]

Originally posted by oilman52
A lot of different opinions out there. I read a manual today on the 2.5 ton condenser and it said to braze. So braze I will!

That's exactly what I was talking about. Manufacturers recommend the best solutions. That keeps your warrenty valid if you follow their recommendations. There are many OEM's that recommend specific solder techniques. No technician can cover them all with one particular solder and still be doing things correctly.

Sporlan Bulletin 10-11 states:

Solder Techniques
It is not necessary to disassemble solder type valves when soldering
to the connecting lines. Any of the commonly used types of solders,
e.g., 95-5, Sil-Fos, Easy-Flo, Phos-Copper, Stay Brite 8 or equivalents
may be used for copper to copper connections. When soldering
a brass refrigerant distributor to the valve, appropriate solders for
these connections, such as 95-5, Easy-Flo, Stay Brite 8 or equivalents
must be used. It is important however, regardless of the solder used,
to direct the flame away from the valve body and avoid excessive
heat on the diaphragm, Figure 2. As an extra precaution, a wet cloth
may be wrapped around the body and element during the soldering
operation.
This precaution will prevent overheating the valve body which could
damage the superheat spring and result in flood back problems. In
addition, the Type O, EBF/SBF, and EBS valve contain synthetic
parts which can be damaged due to overheating, resulting in poor
valve performance.

[tinknocker service tech]

i have read the specs on stabrite8 many times
and dont remenber them all it is on the bax it comes in
staybrite will hold 10,000 lbs presure and so many vibration and up to a certon temp
i will find a box today and get the exact specs
with a resi system the presures are in no way high enough to be concerned and the temps iether
i would never recomend useing it on a compressor because the discharge temp is at its highest point at the discharge port. compressrors should be brazed only
as far as linesets and driers stabrite is the way to go and is just as dependable as a braze . in some cases it can make far a better job because you wont burn anything you are installing. driers and such. as far as ball bearings if you do it right this should not happen.
never use a turbo tip because the flame is to hot and the solder with just bubble up and you will have leaks and balls in the line. a small #3 plumbing tip is good for stabrite and the solder will flo fast and clean
should also use staclean flux because of acid concerns and not a lot most guys think it is a water line and just glob it on this is wrong a little will go a long way
i think stabrite is good and dependable

[rdhussmann]

It is good and dependable. It's also a major time saver. Some people are just so used to brazing, that they don't know how to use it correctly.

You just fill the cup and get off. You can't build a lip around the top of the joint. Trying to build a lip will cause you to overfill the joint and possibly let solder run into critical parts. A lot of people don't trust it because a good Staybrite joint looks much different than a brazed joint.

I don't use it on compressor discharge lines. I don't even usually use it at all, but I have used it many times when I needed to replace a drier, site glass, expansion valve, epr, cpr, etc... Staybrite is great for repair work where you don't have a oxy/act torch, a bucket of water, wet rags, brazing glasses, a striker, nitrogen cylinder, and access for the nitrogen purge. Especially when you have to climb a 20 foot ladder to get to the roof.

Of course some guys like to rack up the hours climbing up and down ladders all day. I have been to busy for that.