Can you help us decide???

[richards]

We are in the process of purchasing a new gas/electric heating and air conditioning unit. Of the contractors we have been in touch with, we have narrowed the decision down to two companies and one is offering a Lennox Elite Series 12 SEER while the other is an Amana 13 SEER. The price of the Lennox is about $300 more.
We have never dealt with this issue before so we would really appreciate you thoughts on the two companies, units, etc. Our heat is out so we need to make a decision within a day or so. Thanks in advance!!

[coolwhip]

I would go with the 13 seer unit. 10 and 12 seer units will not be manufactured as of 2006. Lennox makes a decent furnace but charges a premium for parts should you ever need them. Amana makes a good product as well.

[Jultzya]

Just because the 10 & 12 SEER units won't be manufactured after Jan of 2006, doesn't mean that this particular buyer should resist buying one. The location of the buyer, utility cost and payback is going to be the major factor.

There is no reason to push the 13+ SEER units because of the new mandate!

Personally, I wouldn't take either of the brands listed.

[billva]

i would only go with a 13 seer if the additional cost will be returned over the life of the system.

if you are moving in the near future, go with a 10.

your climate and electric rates will be the determining factor.

[diddlywhoot]

first, anything over 12-13 seer is a waste of money as far as electric payback, but check warranties for the various.

some give lifetime warranties on compressor with 13 seer and above.

but most important, get you PROFESSIONALS to quote the equipment and labour separate.

make a list of what you are buying and what is labour.

watch the fun

[t527ed]

if this is the package unit from other post i would definately go lennox.

[richards]

how come the government is going to require at least a 12 SEER beginning next year? thank you for the advise on the equiptment and the labour. They all have been giving just a total price

[dash]

Originally posted by richards
how come the government is going to require at least a 12 SEER beginning next year? thank you for the advise on the equiptment and the labour. They all have been giving just a total price

richards,that's not advice from a pro,search his other post's ,you likely change your mind about that advice.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
first, anything over 12-13 seer is a waste of money as far as electric payback, but check warranties for the various.

some give lifetime warranties on compressor with 13 seer and above.

but most important, get you PROFESSIONALS to quote the equipment and labour separate.

make a list of what you are buying and what is labour.

watch the fun

Your post is Hilarious at best!

Unless you know what his utility rates and usage, you can't say that the high SEER units won't payback!

Then, PROFESSIONALS quote prices for complete jobs. They don't list all the items separately. Did you get a breakdown for parts & labor when you bought your last vehicle?

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by richards
how come the government is going to require at least a 12 SEER beginning next year?

As of Jan 23, 2006 the minimum SEER is 13, not 12 for manufacturing products. There will be products being installed till whenever the units in stock are depleted.

As far as the quotes/proposals, you will normally get a total price for the complete job. Quality companies normally don't breakout products vs. labor. If they do good for them, but you can't condemn a company for not doing this as a standard practice.

[coolwhip]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
first, anything over 12-13 seer is a waste of money as far as electric payback, but check warranties for the various.

some give lifetime warranties on compressor with 13 seer and above.

but most important, get you PROFESSIONALS to quote the equipment and labour separate.

make a list of what you are buying and what is labour.

watch the fun


I think diddlywoot dont know diddlysquat. What company is going to give you a breakdown of equipment and labor?

[berad]

Originally posted by billva
i would only go with a 13 seer if the additional cost will be returned over the life of the system.

if you are moving in the near future, go with a 10.

your climate and electric rates will be the determining factor. A 13 seer will cost significantly more than a 10 seer. I can't give specific numbers due to site rules. In my area, with our run times, and our utility rates a 13 seer will only save about $50 per year in utility savings. This is speaking from an a/c perspective, not heat pump. I can tell you that over the life of the unit in my are we would have to have a cost spike of biblical proportions for the 13 seer to pay for itself in 20 years. At the current rate of inflation the a/c would have to last 35 years to begin giving energy paybacks and 15-20 years is a much more realistic life span around here. Now with that siad, the major advantage to higher seer equipment isn't energy payback. It's the nice extras like lower operating sound and nicer cabinets and generaly better options and quality that make the higher end equipment worth the investment.

[diddlywhoot]

why should "professionals" feel they can add 100% to a piece of equipment that their only involvement with is picking it up from the distributor.!!

time to get a little honesty in the PROFESSIONAL arena..

heck you can take a few days and do the open book epa test online and buy your own equipment or at least go to distributors and check prices.

notice all the comparisons are short on real details, like type of compressors, type of fins / coils etc.

but most of all is warranty. check the mfg warranty, download it from the net and read it for whatever equipment you buy.

best buy in the hvac market right now is Goodman seer 13 with lifetime compressor warranty.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
why should "professionals" feel they can add 100% to a piece of equipment that their only involvement with is picking it up from the distributor.!!

time to get a little honesty in the PROFESSIONAL arena..

heck you can take a few days and do the open book epa test online and buy your own equipment or at least go to distributors and check prices.

notice all the comparisons are short on real details, like type of compressors, type of fins / coils etc.

but most of all is warranty. check the mfg warranty, download it from the net and read it for whatever equipment you buy.

best buy in the hvac market right now is Goodman seer 13 with lifetime compressor warranty.



1.) You're either an angry homeowner.
2.) You don't own your own business.
3.) You do own your own business, but haven't figured out your cost of doing business.
4.) Are just stirring the pot.

Pick one, any one, doesn't really matter for any of them show that you are lacking the business skills to proper inform this client.

I say you are number (1) and got a charge for changing your filter, that is now angry that you had to pay someone for their knowledge?

Anyway, back to the equipment markup.

1.) You did a Manual J & D, RIGHT?
2.) You chose the equipment, RIGHT?
3.) You are going to warranty your labor for the first year, RIGHT?
4.) You are going to eat any shipping costs for part under the warranty, RIGHT?
5.) You are including an inspection at the start of the next equipment season, RIGHT?
6.) You did have costs on that vehicle, plates, insurance, and you have to pay for all the expenses related to your business, RIGHT?

7.) Last but not even close to listing all the expenses of doing a professional job, why would you do all this for nothing? I mean, you may have well either 1.) stayed home or 2.) been making money doing service.

And while he's taking that EPA test, he might as well sign up for schooling (to learn how to install this unit). Then, wait till he's all done with that, then buy all the (very expensive) tools that are needed to complete the job himself, RIGHT?

BTW, how do you figure the time spent on the estimate/quote/proposal?

[coolwhip]

100% Mark up on equipment? I dont know anyone that marks up equipment 100% You sound like you are young and ignorant and unaware of all the facts. Are you employed or should I say employable? Take the time to educate yourself before you go spouting off. Obviously, you have no idea as to what it takes to run a professional compitant business. Sorry if Im being to direct.

Holy cripes! Your a glass artist! Why are you even commenting on equipment? Go blow some glass for petes sake.

[Edited by coolwhip on 04-27-2005 at 12:37 PM]

[diddlywhoot]

note when folks don't like the message they attack the messenger.

most everybody see's thru that.

what is a fair hourly rate for a "pro"??

[tinknocker service tech]

why would anyone want to assume on warrenty
goodman and any other warrenti will only be honnered if it is installed correctly. to get the warrenti and have the work done are two differant things. you may be able to puy the equipment put replacing acompressor or condenser coil is not the same if they go bad on you. also if they do go bad and the manufactor wants one of thier dealers to fine out why your life time warrenti could be voided out
now to the real question
as much as i like lenox and would like to say get lenox
they both have scroll compressors and the 13 seer would be the one to go with. lenox has a ten year parts and labor warrenti at an extra cost on most of thier units
i am not sure what amana warrenties are
to mislead people on warrenties over the internet and have them think they have a full one is not fair the the people as they find out the hard way they done realy have what they think they have.

[sline-dawg]

My opinion is to go with the Lennox. I have installed several ... it is good equipment. I have not installed any Amana, so I am bias.

Also, check the company you will use.Ask for references.
Lastly, don't listen to diddly(squat for brains).. :D

Good luck, most units installed correctly will do you fine.

[richards]

tinknocker service tech, here are the two warranties (and anyone else if they're interested). I'm just going on what the brochure says:

Amana 13 SEER gas/electric package unit:
lifetime limited warranty on the heat exchanger and compressor (for the original owner i.e. me)
10 year limited warranty on all other functional parts

Lennox 12GCS gas/electric unit Elite Series:
15 year limited warranty on heat exchanger
10 year limited warranty on compressor
5 year limited warranty on all remaining covered parts
-warranties can switch to a new owner. Nice but not too concerned about this

Both say they are quiet which is important to me. The Lennox is $300 more. I live in Middle TN if that helps any. We basically want a quiet, reliable unit. This is alot of money to spend in our opinion. Our first big purchase for our home

[tinknocker service tech]

richards
New Member
thank you for the info on amana it will come in handy
you are also correct on the lenox warrenti
when we sell the uper grade lenox we include ten years complete care warrenti with then
it is lenox parts and labor warrenti through an insurance co. some contractors also sell as an extra with thier units either way it is in the price of the job
they also offer 5 years parts and labor through the same insurance co. conditions are a lenox dealer must install it and do rutean maintence on it or the warrenti can be voided as is the same conditions with all the other manufactors
your info was heplful to me as i am not up on amana put have service a lot of them now i can offer to back them up through my supply house that sell them
lenox i have been with since 83 and think they are the best put only my opionun

[berad]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
note when folks don't like the message they attack the messenger.

most everybody see's thru that.

what is a fair hourly rate for a "pro"?? The fair hourly rate for a professional hvac shop is dependant upon the costs of doing bussiness. It will vary shop to shop based on overhead and direct costs of bussiness. Most of us in this field are barely middle class, sorry if our prices are to high, we're trying to survive too.

[heckler]

I'm new to this site. I've noticed a lot of discussion about choosing a SEER 10 vs SEER 12 vs SEER 13, etc, and I thought I'd chip in.

The SEER rating simply tells how many btuhs are handled by a watt of electricity. In other words, it takes 1200 watts to run a 10 SEER, 1 ton unit (12000 btuh) for an hour, and 1000 watts to run a 12 SEER, 1 ton unit for an hour (note, I use a "1 ton" unit to make the math easier).

With this said (and at the risk of stating the obvious) the payback on your unit depends on how many hours per year it runs. If you're installing a unit in a server room where you'll require continuous cooling throughout the year, then you might want to get a more efficient unit. If your installing a unit in a house, the payoff is much, much slower. You get a better return on your money installing fluorscent bulbs (you light your house year round) than by installing an energy efficient unit that will run only a fraction of the year. (Only runs continuously on the hottest days of the year, during the daytime. Most of the time, it's off. Okay fine. Heat pumps run during cold weather too.)

Another comment. The better the insulation and windows you have, the slower the payback on your SEER 15 unit. By making your house more energy efficient, you reduce the house's cooling load, and as a consequence you reduce the number of hours it runs. If it runs less you'll save less.

So, like most things, it's a balancing act trying to not overspend on either your hvac equipment and on the shell of your house. You quickly hit diminishing returns in either case.

So, to conclude a long, rambling answer to a seemingly simple question, "12 or 13 SEER?" it just depends on your house. Most contractors won't really have a feel for what kind of savings to expect, and so they'll just end up guessing, or relying on anecdotes or generalizations.

[diddlywhoot]

thanks heckler, a great explanation. I do not understand why a "pro" does not have a simple spreadsheet to plug in the numbers and give a client a look at the differences.

if you work in an area it would be easy to have the electrical rates built in.

maybe even be able to show various customers what the cost difference is between keeping house at 68 and 72 degrees etc.

[dash]

Originally posted by heckler
I'm new to this site. I've noticed a lot of discussion about choosing a SEER 10 vs SEER 12 vs SEER 13, etc, and I thought I'd chip in.

The SEER rating simply tells how many btuhs are handled by a watt of electricity. In other words, it takes 1200 watts to run a 10 SEER, 1 ton unit (12000 btuh) for an hour, and 1000 watts to run a 12 SEER, 1 ton unit for an hour (note, I use a "1 ton" unit to make the math easier).

With this said (and at the risk of stating the obvious) the payback on your unit depends on how many hours per year it runs. If you're installing a unit in a server room where you'll require continuous cooling throughout the year, then you might want to get a more efficient unit. If your installing a unit in a house, the payoff is much, much slower. You get a better return on your money installing fluorscent bulbs (you light your house year round) than by installing an energy efficient unit that will run only a fraction of the year. (Only runs continuously on the hottest days of the year, during the daytime. Most of the time, it's off. Okay fine. Heat pumps run during cold weather too.)

Another comment. The better the insulation and windows you have, the slower the payback on your SEER 15 unit. By making your house more energy efficient, you reduce the house's cooling load, and as a consequence you reduce the number of hours it runs. If it runs less you'll save less.

So, like most things, it's a balancing act trying to not overspend on either your hvac equipment and on the shell of your house. You quickly hit diminishing returns in either case.

So, to conclude a long, rambling answer to a seemingly simple question, "12 or 13 SEER?" it just depends on your house. Most contractors won't really have a feel for what kind of savings to expect, and so they'll just end up guessing, or relying on anecdotes or generalizations.



Most contractors have access to "savings" calculations on the web,a lap top,preprinted sheets,or "silde type"or wheel calculator.

When you add insulation,etc.,the run hours will remain about the same,If you install the correct size system.If you keep the old one,it will run less and not do a good job removing humidity.Then your likely to turn the stat coolwer,to get comfortable.

Lots of things to consider.

SEER is also at "perfect" labr conditions,the design and quality of the install will make all the difference in the actual SEER you end upwith.

The "energy labels" (yellow tags)on units will some be removed as the government now realizes it's been a failure.

[dash]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
thanks heckler, a great explanation. I do not understand why a "pro" does not have a simple spreadsheet to plug in the numbers and give a client a look at the differences.

if you work in an area it would be easy to have the electrical rates built in.

maybe even be able to show various customers what the cost difference is between keeping house at 68 and 72 degrees etc.


From your post's and website,I'd guess your very close by,and buying from Baker Bros..For $100.00 we would consider designing it correctly.

[heckler]

I agree with Dash that if your house is better insulated, you can avoid having a unit run less frequently by installing a smaller unit. Although insulation decreases the heating and cooling requirements, the shape of the load profile remains roughly the same.

So if the unit is sized correctly, then savings will mostly be a function of weather conditions and building usage. But even then, the savings will vary greatly depending on how much glass is on which side of the house, if the windows have overhangs, etc. So contractors still end up using the rough approximation provided by their calculators and wheels - which is probably better than a blind guess.

[berad]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
thanks heckler, a great explanation. I do not understand why a "pro" does not have a simple spreadsheet to plug in the numbers and give a client a look at the differences.

if you work in an area it would be easy to have the electrical rates built in.

maybe even be able to show various customers what the cost difference is between keeping house at 68 and 72 degrees etc. I do have a slide calculator, but it requires the cooling hours for your area and an evaluation of your homes construction as well as the energy rate. A bit difficult to over the net don't you agree?

[dave_slo]

Originally posted by berad

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
note when folks don't like the message they attack the messenger.

most everybody see's thru that.

what is a fair hourly rate for a "pro"?? The fair hourly rate for a professional hvac shop is dependant upon the costs of doing bussiness. It will vary shop to shop based on overhead and direct costs of bussiness. Most of us in this field are barely middle class, sorry if our prices are to high, we're trying to survive too.

The kids wanted to hear a fairy tale at bedtime so I started...

"Once upon a time there was a rich A/C guy..."

[berad]

Originally posted by dave_slo

Originally posted by berad

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
note when folks don't like the message they attack the messenger.

most everybody see's thru that.

what is a fair hourly rate for a "pro"?? The fair hourly rate for a professional hvac shop is dependant upon the costs of doing bussiness. It will vary shop to shop based on overhead and direct costs of bussiness. Most of us in this field are barely middle class, sorry if our prices are to high, we're trying to survive too.

The kids wanted to hear a fairy tale at bedtime so I started...

"Once upon a time there was a rich A/C guy..." Rich A/C guy? I live a LOWER middleclass life style because I make a LOWER middle class income. I could make more but stupid low balling contractors keep the entire market price to low so nobody as a shop is making more than 3% gross margins. If I made more there wouldn't be a shop to go to work at. I am speaking reality, like it or not. I'm glad that at least my wife is in college now and will end up in a profession that overcharges like hell and everyone pays and you don't hear much whining.
She's in law school, thank God for student loans.

[berad]

Dave_Slo,

I wish you could live a day in my life. We all have our tribulations, understanding someone else's daily trials helps you see the world through their eyes. So for that matter I wish I could walk a mile in your shoes so I could see where you are coming from. There are some wealthy shop owners out there, but many more failed trying to get there. Maybe someone took advantage of you at some point, believe me we are not all that way, the majority of us are straight shooters, but the few bad apples give all of us a black eye.

[mattmort]

yeah i kinda agree with everyone about diddlywoot... sounds like you just got off a "how to choose a new unit website or something" we arent in the field to give our skills away for free, labour costs go to the employees, equipment costs go towards paying overhead fees to keep the company floating and to cover other expenses like retard customers who dont like to pay. I really hope you arent in the trade because goodman is not the best going unit on anyone elses book... when someone is as green as you i would suggest shutting up and reading what others have to say, maybe you'll learn something, oh and i would suggest a 12 seer carrier, all models have high and low pressure cut outs that can save a compressor if some less serious problem occurs, then again almost anything 12 seer or higher includes these features. while you have the chance also stay away from 410a systems personally i think its dangerous, and something with lower pressures should have been chosen for the r22 replacement (anyone else see a problem with the fact that for 410a rated compressors have to be double welded?

[billva]

Originally posted by mattmort
yeah i kinda agree with everyone about diddlywoot... sounds like you just got off a "how to choose a new unit website or something" we arent in the field to give our skills away for free, labour costs go to the employees, equipment costs go towards paying overhead fees to keep the company floating and to cover other expenses like retard customers who dont like to pay. I really hope you arent in the trade because goodman is not the best going unit on anyone elses book... when someone is as green as you i would suggest shutting up and reading what others have to say, maybe you'll learn something, oh and i would suggest a 12 seer carrier, all models have high and low pressure cut outs that can save a compressor if some less serious problem occurs, then again almost anything 12 seer or higher includes these features. while you have the chance also stay away from 410a systems personally i think its dangerous, and something with lower pressures should have been chosen for the r22 replacement (anyone else see a problem with the fact that for 410a rated compressors have to be double welded?



you're a day (ok, a year and a half) late and a seer short.

looks like you may want to go get a nursing degree, 410a will be the only thing available soon, and with the exploding compressors and higher pressures, we will need more nurses.